How do you feel about Role Actions?

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Provoke is a mandatory skill which was locked behind leveling Gladiator to, I believe, level 22. If you did not have it, you couldn't prefer tank swaps, which usually meant someone died. Likewise, skills such as Swiftcast, Blood for Blood and Quelling Strikes were essentially required due to their sheer usefulness to the raid. Not taking them simply meant you were inferior to someone who did out of pure laziness. Regardless, you weren't nerfed. Literally nothing was changed regarding the jobs themselves. You just were no longer required to play a job you may not like to access skills you were expected to have.

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Yes, it is a Nerf, because I cannot access those skills any more unless I choose one of the few jobs inside a role. Being able to use a heal and protection buff, nor even a taunt on my archer and summoner is no longer possible. Being able to use a poison DoT or lightning Dot nor sleep, stun or bind is possible on my healer or tank. I can no longer use second wind on my summoner class.

This is most certainly a nerf. Your complaint about not being able to do something you claimed to need to do, required taking something away from me that I earned threw hard work.

Like H*** it isn't a nerf!

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Originally Posted by Ryoko_D

Yes, it is a Nerf, because I cannot access those skills any more unless I choose one of the few jobs inside a role. Being able to use a heal and protection buff, nor even a taunt on my archer and summoner is no longer possible. Being able to use a poison DoT or lightning Dot nor sleep, stun or bind is possible on my healer or tank. I can no longer use second wind on my summoner class.

This is most certainly a nerf. Your complaint about not being able to do something you claimed to need to do, required taking something away from me that I earned threw hard work.

Like H*** it isn't a nerf!

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It wasn't a nerf. You were intentionally playing wrong if you were playing as an arcanist to use second wind or provoke, and Paladin has access to Clemency, which is a much better spell than Cure which was weighted off of the MND stat PLD didn't use.

Any jobs that used damage boosting cross-classes were re-balanced with the lack of those in mind, such as all the physical jobs losing Blood for Blood or anything that borrowed DoTs from other jobs.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Provoke is a mandatory skill which was locked behind leveling Gladiator to, I believe, level 22. If you did not have it, you couldn't prefer tank swaps, which usually meant someone died.

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I mean, I'd done a quite few Extreme primals just fine with Warriors who had no Provoke. In ARR, tank swaps were certainly possible between similarly geared tanks even without Provoke as long as one of them was a Warrior to use fewer enmity combo attacks. In HW, it was even easier; though even then plenty of DRKs and WARs did not have Provoke, I was still able to go through Extreme primals without much trouble. It's quite not a make-or-break ability for tank functionality, especially if you're willing to give job-specific control tools or mechanics to replace it. Or, heck, you could just make it so that walking in front of someone being targeted for something means you take the hit with or in place of them for the majority of attacks, rather than the rare few.

Not saying that we shouldn't get a Provoke-like ability, even as nonsensical as it is, just that needn't come in an exact form, let alone under the same name and/or exact effect for every tank.

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Originally Posted by Ryoko_D

Yes, it is a Nerf, because I cannot access those skills any more unless I choose one of the few jobs inside a role. Being able to use a heal and protection buff, nor even a taunt on my archer and summoner is no longer possible. Being able to use a poison DoT or lightning Dot nor sleep, stun or bind is possible on my healer or tank. I can no longer use second wind on my summoner class.

This is most certainly a nerf. Your complaint about not being able to do something you claimed to need to do, required taking something away from me that I earned threw hard work.

Like H*** it isn't a nerf!

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At this point, I call that either troll or totally clueless about the game.

I dislike having role specific actions.

I wish they went back to the old system of shared class skills...

That way, when I do raids, I can actually choose whether to load out offensively or defensively, regardless of role.

Being able to heal in a pinch, regardless of class is always useful. Having an extra DoT is always a DPS bonus.

They should do what they do for crafters. At level X, all tanks learn Rampart. At level X all DPS learn Low Blow. There's no equipping them, they're just shared skills.

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Originally Posted by Jonnycbad

They should do what they do for crafters. At level X, all tanks learn Rampart. At level X all DPS learn Low Blow. There's no equipping them, they're just shared skills.

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Why make them impossible to integrate cohesively with their job toolkits just to ensure they all have the same name and animation, though, when all classes could -- as they did -- have their own stuns, self-sustain, etc., in their own ways?

I think I'd prefer a mix of role and cross-class, with the proviso that everyone gets vital kit built in (provoke, diversion, swiftcast, etc.) Have classes get a key skill at 15 and 30 that goes into a role pool and have jobs pull from two role pools.

It'd have to be part of a proper rework of the leveling process though. I think classes should have more abilities earlier on, we'd also probably need a class for Scholar, to keep the amount of classes in each role even.
I'd end classes at 30 too, want more skills, get a job.

So with that in mind, an idea of possible level 15 and level 30 unlockable skills:

Tank role:
Gladiator - Awareness, Tempered Will
Marauder - Convalescence, Anticipation

Healer role:
Conjurer - Lucid Dreaming, Largesse
Librarian - Surecast, Eye for an Eye

Melee DPS role:
Pugilist - Internal Release, Invigorate
Lancer - Second Wind, Bloodbath

Support DPS role:
Rogue - Goad, Feint
Archer - Palisade, Peloton

Caster DPS role:
Thaumaturge - Manaward, Mana Shift
Arcanist - Addle, Apocatastasis

Then, yeah, jobs pulling from two sets. Make it so you have 4 slots, gives you 8 skills to select per job. Anything you want can be achieved by level 30, but I tried to keep them from being proper job killers to miss.

I don't know, I might be trying to make a broken system that most people hated work, I liked it though. I thought it was cool when I first started so I might have a bit of nostalgia for it.
In a game where you can level everything on one character, the idea that leveling extra classes grants you extra skills just makes sense to me.

I guess one of my main complaints Role Actions being bound within the equipping job's given role isn't nearly as sensible as it might sound. If you're DPS, then why wouldn't you already have the whole of a DPS toolkit? If a healer, then why wouldn't you have the requisite skills before entering any auxiliary system, if such a system is even necessary at all? If there's some function that need be ubiquitous across the role, then the first questions shouldn't include how to toss it into an auxiliary system, but rather whether it belongs at all (Protect, Diversion, Lucid Dreaming, Invigorate) and why it can't be more cohesively included in each job's own toolkit.

If we're to have Role Actions, they should essentially be whatever additional or adapted Skills or Traits allow us, at least for a brief time, to function outside our main role -- i.e. Diversion acting per its namesake, rather than its opposite; Battle Litany being changeable to Hunter's Chance, granting damage-to-health against a target ally; Shadewalker instead cloaking the ally in your visage, stealing its threat; etc., etc..

^ Absolutely.

I'm hoping that the Logos system is some sort of trial for new cross role actions to replace the current system, so that the current role actions can be redistributed back into jobs base action set.