Monk suggestions

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Originally Posted by Silver-Strider

Considering PB currently has a 3 minute long CD, it really isn't any more punishing then it currently is so I'm not really seeing how that's much of an argument. Realistically, PB is used almost entirely as a back up in case we end up losing GL, not on consistent CD like the rest of our oGCDs, so I'm not really sure why it would need to sync up with anything at all unless you planned to build around Tornado Kick every time it became available for use, which is just asking for trouble.

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I never said it would be more punishing than it is now. I was weighing it against the obvious alternatives.

I'm saying said that it would have to be balanced around constant uptime because so many fights provide it, and, being also defendant on constant uptime, would then penalize downtime.

Let's say you have two options" You can have:

(1) a 3 minute CD where every Coeurl skill reduces that CD by an amount equal to your GCD, averaging out to roughly one minute skipped per that CD or an effectively 2-minute refresh rate, or
(2) you could just have a 2-minute refresh rate, baseline.

The difference is simply that the latter still sees that buff even when you're not attacking, be it between pulls or when forced out of melee range. Option (1) cannot exceed Option (2) in maximum strength, because many fights do allow for 100% uptime, but Option (2) can outperform Option (1) in any of the fights where that is not the case, and can feel like a QoL boon during leveling or dungeons.

Simpler can often be better. Complexity where no actually additional control is offered, is not added difficulty or means for skill-gap; it's simply the opposite of convenience, and (however slightly) diminishes other areas of control.

tl;dr: We'd be better off just shaving that bonus off the actual CD, rather than via some combat-dependent mechanic.

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Originally Posted by wereotter

That's a low bar to clear.

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At this point anything is better than tackle mastery. Almost every other job that got a trait to buff existing skills got a new animation to go along with it. Monk? Nah you can have the same crap animation and just have 30 potency added on. They could have easily just have added 30 potency like they do with generic buffs to jobs instead of wasting a whole trait on something that is so useless. Like c'mon SE at least make fire tackle have a damn blazing inferno vortex around it? At least make it look cool even if it's crap! Monk already has some 'meh' animations. And our best animations get cut short because of the GCD lol. At least Elixir field is still cool... Dreaming of the day Monk is fun like ARR and HW and not an RNGfest and uninteresting new 'skills'.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Snip.

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While I don't disagree that PB should just get a flat reduction, I figured I'd make a compromise so that MNK got SOMETHING mildly useful added.

Just want to add some MNK suggestions too. Let me know what you think.

TL;DR:
-scrap/rework useless skills/traits
-improving raid utilty (a bit)
-reducing rng factor
-merging GL and Chakra system


Fists of Wind - scraped
Fists of Earth -scraped
Form Shift - scraped
Riddle of Earth - scraped
Steel Peak - scraped
Tackle Mastery - scraped


Fists of Fire - reworked to passive trait
One Ilm Punch - reworked to a ogcd attack with Cd, gaining 1 GL
Riddle of Fire - reworked to increasing attack speed by 15%
Brotherhood - reworked to increasing dmg of nearby party members; still have a chance to grant 1 Chakra if party members execute a weapon skill or cast.
Perfect Balance - reduced Cooldown
Deep Meditation: reworked to when gaining new GL and GL3 is already up, 1 Chakra is gained instead.

Tornado Kick - reworked to Hurricane Kick.
Effect: Using up 5 Chakras to deal physical dmg to all enemys in a frontal cone.


New traits:

Double Courl Fists
Effect: Changing Shoulder Tackle into Double Courl Fists
Double Courl Fists: Rushes towards an enemy, inflicting dmg to it and all enemys in the way, stunning the Target, gaining 1 GL.

Pure Will
Effect: If GL runs out by time it sets automatically back to its full lenght. Has a Cd.

Inner Focus
Effect: While not in Raptor-Form or Courl-Form, Opo-Opo Form is automatically gained.


How the MNK would play:
It would still be the same thing. Collecting Chakra with Meditation before a fight and between boss phases, then start with Dragonkick right in Opo-Opo-form (or use PB for opener). Proceeding with your combo till you got 3 GL. Each time you would gain GL beyond 3, the GL timer sets to max again and 1 Chakra is gained. 5 Chakra can be used for The Forbidden Chakra (single dmg) or Hurricane Kick (aoe dmg).
New brotherhood, Riddle of Fire, OIP and Double Courl Fists help gaining GL and Chakra faster.
At moments you can't hit anything, Pure Will provides GL to just fall of.

As you see, most of it is QoL. Balancing can easy be made by reducing/increasing dmg/cooldowns, or by changing single aspects of skills/traits.
(e.g. OIP/Double Courl Fists dont gaining GL3/Chakra)

It seems Tornado Kick becoming a chakra AOE is a fan favorite change that I can completely agree with, the animation is great and it would fit pretty good, I may be the only one who finds Deep Meditation just fine but what I find entirely stupid is that it is not acquired at the very exact moment we get Meditation, we got potencies nerfed on pretty much every skill since chakras are finally something that can be used, yet they locked that until level 62?

But what I hate the most is how stupid RoF is, at least I can get use of RoE every once in a while and it feels great, yet doing content 68+ is a chore thanks to that skill, we got the idea that Monks hit a bit weak yet fast, but then that skill comes to completely ruin the flow and feel of the Job, if anything like Kreyd says it should be an Overclock ability, heck even increase atk speed while lowering a bit damage output to balance numbers.

And it shows Square has no idea what they want to make out of Monk, but they have the answer there already, focus on ATK speed and Chakras.

This is going to be a long one, things will be moved around compared to the original post, but that's just to make life easier. If anything isn't mentioned, I either agree, or don't have an opinion either way.

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Originally Posted by Kreyd

Fists of Wind - scraped
Fists of Earth -scraped
Fists of Fire - reworked to passive trait

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If you make one into a trait, why not just have them all as a trait? Granted, a permanent 10% damage reduction will be a bit strong, so make it lower, but I don't see the point in making one of the fists a trait and not doing the same to the rest.

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Originally Posted by Kreyd

Form Shift - scraped
Inner Focus
Effect: While not in Raptor-Form or Courl-Form, Opo-Opo Form is automatically gained.
Pure Will
Effect: If GL runs out by time it sets automatically back to its full lenght. Has a Cd.

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You have taken the flexibility of Form Shift, reduced it and split it. Form Shift's boon is that you can switch to any stance you want in downtime, granted, this is mostly Coeurl, but there are times when you do shift into others, losing that flexibility will hinder you in the long run. Inner Focus seems quite frankly, silly. Opo-opo is the worst form to start in damage wise, you need to get that GL going asap, so delaying it by 2 CGDs hurts you that way. As for Pure Will, traits don't have cooldowns for a start, so it would be a new ability, basically RoE but refresh on use rather than on hit, so why not make it that instead. As for Inner Focus, why not change it so that it removes timers from forms? It prevents you from having to spam form shift before a fight as you can just sit in Coeurl waiting, and if you keep form shift, you still get to keep the flexibility added with that as well. Simple and easy.

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Originally Posted by Kreyd

One Ilm Punch - reworked to a ogcd attack with Cd, gaining 1 GL
Double Courl Fists
Effect: Changing Shoulder Tackle into Double Courl Fists
Double Courl Fists: Rushes towards an enemy, inflicting dmg to it and all enemys in the way, stunning the Target, gaining 1 GL.

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Personally, I'm not a fan of the idea of having oGCDs applying GL, however, if you take these skills and put them into the toolkit you provided as a whole, it then just seems to me like you saw the problem with starting a fight in Opo-opo, as it delays GL aquisition, and tried to fix it by adding these two as a way to remedy it, that's about the only gripe I have.

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Originally Posted by Kreyd

Riddle of Fire - reworked to increasing attack speed by 15%

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I think 15% is a bit too much, however, if you make it a temporary GL4, that would be better in my opinion.


Overall, while this is my thoughts on what you have suggested, I feel it's just trying to add things to monk it doesn't need, just adding things for the sake of adding things. Keep the changes simple, yet effective. The monk doesn't need much to make it fun again, but go too far, and you add complexity where it isn't needed, and that can be just as bad.

IMHO Tornado kick should fill the 2nd button in MNK aoe combo. MNKs are supposed to be combo masters.

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Originally Posted by Mikey_R

If you make one into a trait, why not just have them all as a trait? Granted, a permanent 10% damage reduction will be a bit strong, so make it lower, but I don't see the point in making one of the fists a trait and not doing the same to the rest.

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Possible, yes. Movement and less damage taken is always nice, but it's nothing the monk really relies on. Technically they are not there at all, cause nearly nobody uses them, so I put them to scrap. But yes, they could be turned into traits instead.

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Originally Posted by Mikey_R

I think 15% is a bit too much, however, if you make it a temporary GL4, that would be better in my opinion.

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15% may be a bit much, but many people complain about RoF making MNK slow and a plain Dmg increase seemed to boring, so I choosed this instead.

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Originally Posted by Mikey_R

Personally, I'm not a fan of the idea of having oGCDs applying GL, however, if you take these skills and put them into the toolkit you provided as a whole, it then just seems to me like you saw the problem with starting a fight in Opo-opo, as it delays GL aquisition, and tried to fix it by adding these two as a way to remedy it, that's about the only gripe I have.

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Actually, it was the exact other way around. :D

Because of the change of Deep Meditation, I was afraid of building up 5 Chakras for TFC/Hurricane Kick just by Courl form abilities could take too long, so I put a GL/Chakra gain to OIP (giving it a right to exist after years) and Double Courl Fists (replacing Tackle Mastery). Also, gaining 3GL on a pull would be way easier with this, so starting in Opo-Opo for Dragon Kick and Twin Viper makes a lot more sense than it does now.

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Originally Posted by Mikey_R

As for Inner Focus, why not change it so that it removes timers from forms? It prevents you from having to spam form shift before a fight as you can just sit in Coeurl waiting, and if you keep form shift, you still get to keep the flexibility added with that as well. Simple and easy.

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Inner Focus's main goal actually should be, to prevent MNK from beeing formless, after beeing stunned, dead etc. and not to replace Form shift. But after the changes to the other abilites I just realised that Form Shift isn't need anymore, so I scrapped it, getting rid of beeing forced to form dance before and in every boss fight.

But your way would work quiet nicely too.

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Originally Posted by Mikey_R

As for Pure Will, traits don't have cooldowns for a start, so it would be a new ability, basically RoE but refresh on use rather than on hit, so why not make it that instead.

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Okay, you got me on that one. xD I didn't consider that traits didn't have Cd's. So yes, your way of a reworked RoE would definitely be better.


All in all I tried to think of "what would make fun to play" rather than just "how to fix problems quick" and to take on problems many people seem to complain about (OIP, Tornado Kick, Tackle Mastery etc.) I guess the most simple ways to fix MNK would just lenghten the duration of Forms and GL.

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Originally Posted by Kreyd

All in all I tried to think of "what would make fun to play" rather than just "how to fix problems quick" and to take on problems many people seem to complain about (OIP, Tornado Kick, Tackle Mastery etc.) I guess the most simple ways to fix MNK would just lenghten the duration of Forms and GL.

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This definitely seems to be the way to go.

Personally, though, I find the results you've ended up at -- quite practically -- to be pruned to the point that it'd scarcely be fun to play to me. I'd much rather see Fists of Wind, Earth, and Fire, for instance, be made more fluid, integral, and distinctly significant rather than outright pruned, but that would likely require turning them into something else entirely.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

This definitely seems to be the way to go.

Personally, though, I find the results you've ended up at -- quite practically -- to be pruned to the point that it'd scarcely be fun to play to me. I'd much rather see Fists of Wind, Earth, and Fire, for instance, be made more fluid, integral, and distinctly significant rather than outright pruned, but that would likely require turning them into something else entirely.

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And that is what they require precisely: Turning into something else entirely that potentiates interability play. I would even argue, on top of the effects they would bring, to have their effects linger for x amount of time as you keep shifting them - but for some people that may feel like a lot of clicking. In my opinion, if they wish for Fists to remain as stances/abilities, then they need to make them flow with the kit, all of them. If they cant or don't want to, they may as well be traits then.


Or turn all of them into utility flavoured things that require cycling along them, as you shift between the two major rotations we have... or... something! Novelty is required, regardless of where we look to - useful novelty (for this actual game that is. The idea is not that new x3 )