How Would You Do... Summoner?

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Originally Posted by Okamimaru

I bet you were the kid in art class in elementary school who told other kids they drew monsters wrong... we KNOW you like things as they are, we get it.... you main SMN... but let's be real you only care about damage and not the spirit of summoner.... this thread is how would you make summoner, you instead rip apart anything that isn't in line with your "big-d*ck dps or it's total garbage" mentality... at this point you're posts are more tedious and annoying than useful in any way besides to stroke your own overinflated ego....

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REALITY CHECK:

This is a DPS class... it queues in the DPS queue... its not a support class and can't queue with the healers...

It can't just sit and look kewl so you can watch shinies... Yeah imagination and coolness factor only last until you have to get through that instance... OR compete with other Jobs and get through the instance...

If you can't pull the DPS... you're not going to be wanted. Like... back in ARR... and why people bolted the Job in mass numbers, because it could not compete or even come close to BLM.

As to the SUMMONER job and the "Intents"...

And on top of that... in NO WAY SHAPE OR FORM... does a "pet job" version of a SMN come anywhere near the Traditional FF Summoner... no matter which game you look at...

FF VII
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AvErgY6HpX8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1no4OdDult4

FF Tactics
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FhUwX-AI4cs

FF3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wyWMyfh1iPY

In other words...

Its always in all FF games treated as more of a BLM style really flashy Nuke... not as some pet who stays with you all the time and a power inherent to the Summoner... not as some pet

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Originally Posted by Silverquick

Well right now with Deathflare... I can wipe out whole packs of 6-10 mobs... with my sidecar DPS with just Painflares, Deathflare/Teraflare, Bane DoTs, and Garuda Aerial Blast, in about 30 seconds.

Will I be able to do that with these new Egis?

If I can't... then we just locked the SMN back at 50th level while the rest of the Jobs moved on to 70th level...

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My AoE was fine at 50, 3.0 just added a little more too it. But that aside, the only time AoE is really useful is on trash mobs and the main source of trash mobs is dungeon. Not a lot of use for AoE in Raids and Trial Ex so you argument is moot.

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Originally Posted by Sarynth

Snip

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I agree with some of your idea like contagion but the pet problem is still an issue, one the devs are struggling with too. Adding new Egi is fine but you have the issue on how to make each one useful. The history of the series has you swap summons out because of timers or useful spells.

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Originally Posted by Silverquick

Its always in all FF games treated as more of a BLM style really flashy Nuke... not as some pet who stays with you all the time and a power inherent to the Summoner... not as some pet[/B]

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I'll be the first to admit that I've not played every - or even most - of the FF games. However, in the ones I have played, whenever a summoner does something related to summoning, something big appears to do all the hard lifting work. Sure, it's a graphical effect and not a "pet" in most cases, but then again a spell is just a melee attack with pretty lights in most FFs. Where do you draw the line?

My point is, Summoner as a direct damage job (or DoT job for that matter) is no more "accurate" with regards to historical FF than the pet model. I'm sure the FF history buffs among us can state an exception or two, but for the vast majority of actual summoning that takes place, something shows up in response. Summoner's trances are actually fairly inaccurate by that metric.

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Originally Posted by Jerbob

My point is, Summoner as a direct damage job (or DoT job for that matter) is no more "accurate" with regards to historical FF than the pet model. I'm sure the FF history buffs among us can state an exception or two, but for the vast majority of actual summoning that takes place, something shows up in response. Summoner's trances are actually fairly inaccurate by that metric.

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Incorrect...

Its never a pet job... ever, with only a few exceptions... one is FFXI... which that model doesn't fit this game...

The rest it was always a large flashy nuke... a one large single target AoE hit that wipe out enemies...

Which is exactly what Deathflare currently does... what few if any of them ACTUALLY have... is a pet that sticks around.

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Originally Posted by Silverquick

big load of whatever

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Not saying it has to be a pet job but the goddamn thing should feel like a summoner... and as for your constant b.s. about its not a support class guess what brd is a dps with support skills.... beyond resurrect what utility skills does SMN have? Psysic? Essentially useless on SMN... you may not realize it but almost all classes now have support abilities... even dps... nobody is saying weaken it or make it full support... people want it to FEEL like a summoner... you have no loyalty to summoner only to the numbers.... if the dps is the same using the current system as any of the proposed systems then what's the problem? You say that people will flee the class of they did things different and while it may be true for people like you, plenty of other people would swap to summoner because it's actually a summoner... you know that SUMMONS things....

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Originally Posted by Dyvid

My AoE was fine at 50, 3.0 just added a little more too it. But that aside, the only time AoE is really useful is on trash mobs and the main source of trash mobs is dungeon. Not a lot of use for AoE in Raids and Trial Ex so you argument is moot..

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Well having played both BLM and SMN at level 50 in the same gear... no actually you can't compete with it at level 50. That changes at level 52 once you get Painflare.

Flare far outclasses SMN damage. As does Fire 3 on single targets, that's why in the early guides it talks about it... and why everyone bolted SMN for BLM back then, and why they were unwanted in upper level areas.

And having played them both at that level... yeah I found they were telling me the truth...

And luckily because Deathflare does so much damage in a one shot hit, it actually works just fine in Raids and Ex Trials, as witnessed by the FFLogs.

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Originally Posted by Silverquick

Incorrect...

Its never a pet job... ever, with only a few exceptions... one is FFXI... which that model doesn't fit this game...

The rest it was always a large flashy nuke... a one large single target AoE hit that wipe out enemies...

Which is exactly what Deathflare currently does... what few if any of them ACTUALLY have... is a pet that sticks around.

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FF10 summons could be controlled and even leveled up.... ff12 summons rampaged around beside you until the skill wore off usually with a nuke to end it's rampage...ff13 had summons that could be controlled while they were summoned as well... in addition to what you've said about 11... seems to me they wanted to go more summon control... 10, 11, 12, 13... by your logic because most of the series is turned based 14 should be too...

I distinctly remember playing FF10... and there were no pets for Summoner not in the classic sense.

Did play FF11... in that game the SMN was a half assed White Mage with no abilities. And the Summons were pretty weak and drained your MP too fast to be used as actual Pets.

Never played 12 or 13...

But I have played pretty much all of them previously.... All of the Summons were little more than large scale nukes with a one shot AoE attack... and I linked them for you...

I do not know here you can sit there with a straight face and somehow claim after saying that it doesn't "feel" like a Summoner.

The one that doesn't "feel" like a Summoner is a half assed pet class from FFXI.

With all due respect, I don't think I have much interest in replying to Silverquick any longer. Best of luck, everyone.

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Originally Posted by Okamimaru

FF10 summons could be controlled and even leveled up.... ff12 summons rampaged around beside you until the skill wore off usually with a nuke to end it's rampage...ff13 had summons that could be controlled while they were summoned as well... in addition to what you've said about 11... seems to me they wanted to go more summon control... 10, 11, 12, 13... by your logic because most of the series is turned based 14 should be too...

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14 is a massive callback to the original game pre-7 though. I think the new Bahamut animation perfectly captures what SMN should be, a job about big flashy summon animations that are temporary. Summons aren't iconic for being persistent, they are iconic for their signature attack, regardless of how later games (post sakaguchi bear in mind) have tried to change things up.

Saying that SMN is about pets is like saying that RDM is a pure caster with support skills.