Anyone else wish RDM was a PURE support class?

It would be awesome to have pure support jobs just like FFXI, but that formula doesn't fit this game yet.

Back in FFXI, normal parties were1 tank, 1 healer and 4 DPS, where you could replace one DPS to fit a support to buff the rest of the team, wich usually was better than having an additional DPS.

I really miss it.

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Originally Posted by Tanathya

As I've always said, give DRK its signature ability, which is to spend HP to deal more damage (the definition of a tank), not the drains, and keep it a tank. Let's see how tanky DRK has always been.

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That and DRKs generally have paper-thin defense to compensate for their better attack scaling. You could make a case for Cecil, but he has plot armor on top of being the protagonist, and he eventually turns into a paladin. Gafgarion makes a slightly better case, but stats are a bit weird in FF Tactics (since HP mostly scaled with armor class and Gafgarion traded superior attack scaling for drains that let him live forever). I recall FFX-2 DRKs having lower defenses in exchange for drains and higher damage. And of course we have FFXI's DRK, which would get two-shot for pulling hate; Souleater simply made it a LOT easier to die in those situations.

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Originally Posted by Jerbob

If, however, I were forced to choose between pure nuking and pure support roles for RDM, I'd think I'd find the support option much more interesting.

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To me, support has never fit the job's aesthetic. A guy in medium armor with a sword in hand that is able to cast spells is not what you picture when you think of support. That guy is better suited in the front lines, mixing sword swings and quickly-cast spells to do their thing. He's not going to stand back and let others do the work. I get that console FFs allowed for this sort of thing with your RDMs in FF1 existing only to cast Temper on your knight and ninja, but turn-based RPGs sort of require you to use character turns as efficiently as possible.

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I mean, this is pretty much the essence of it, isn't it. I'm not sure myself and the producer have the same ideas of what RDM's "essential roots" are. Why bother introducing RDM into XIV if it's a "new type of Red Mage", i.e. not Red Mage? I don't want to spend too much time wearing my tin foil hat, but it does feel a bit like they're using really popular job imagery to sell something completely different that people might not otherwise be interested in. I know a lot of people who are excited about it just because it has the Red Mage name and the pimp hat - would they be so interested in the expansion if it was just another generic nuker in both name and execution?

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I think people would feel gipped at that point. I'm currently on the fence, and which side I land on hinges on what the devs have exactly done to RDM. Trying to sell mobility as a gimmick is setting off alarms. The keynotes set off additional alarms. It's not fun to sit around with a gut feeling that they've messed up but you're not going to find out for real until June.

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Pure support jobs are just DD jobs that deal damage by proxy. They just need someone there for them to support, at which point they're (pretty much by definition) perfectly capable of pulling their own weight. If they can't pull their own weight, then they've been designed incorrectly! I mean, an AST giving someone The Balance is responsible for the extra damage dealt - that's theirs, just by proxy. Is there any real reason why a job couldn't be entirely constructed around that concept?

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Considering how Balance is seen as OP because of what it does to DPS output, I think if anything it proves that you can't have a buff oriented class because it becomes a mainstay for progression, and that trickles down to the people doing Sastasha for the first time. I'm sure your resident DRG/MNK/SAM/BLM would hate to get benched in favor of whatever buffbot ends up getting implemented. And that's not taking into account the potential for drama (see: princess BRDs and princess RDMs in FFXI).

Aside from its role in FFXI, there's nothing about RDM that makes it the obvious choice for this game's first pure support job (not that a pure support job is ever likely to happen at all). FFXI was the first and only Final Fantasy game to give RDM such an emphasis on buffs and debuffs. Prior to that, the only buffs and debuffs they got were a subset of the ones available to BLM and WHM, just like their nukes and heals were subsets.

Classically, it's been a jack-of-all-trades, master of none that can nuke, but not as well as dedicated nukers, heal, but not as well as dedicated healers, and melee, but not as well as dedicated melee. That kind of diversity is pretty much suicide in a game like this one (why take a RDM in a DPS slot? We have our healing amply covered already, so all we're doing is adding a sub-par DPS), so it makes sense that the devs would tailor it into a pure DPS role. I fully anticipate it will have minor support abilities as a nod to its roots, but don't expect more than that.

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Originally Posted by MistyMew

A pure support would be ridiculed beyond recognition in any dungeon/raid where the "race" seems to always take priority over anything else. Every run is a rush fest or constant complaining occurs.

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This depends entirely on how effective the support is. BRDs were among the most sought-after party members in FFXI, in spite of the fact that they did crap damage. Why? Because their buffs were so powerful, that having one in the party was like adding two or more DPS, and adding powerful sustainment on top of that.

If something similar were present in this game, far from being excluded, the "race" would DEPEND on having this kind of support along. No rush party would ever even get off the ground without one along.

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Originally Posted by Kaethra

That's not entirely true. Bards and Enchanters in both EQ's prove that singular focus on support roles is extremely desirable. But we'd need to ditch the 4man group model. Which I support. 8 man group as the base would fix the DPS queues across all datacenters.

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Key word: Everquest

FFXIV is not designed to have pure support roles. The whole healer DPS meta exists because of how damage focused this game is. Increasing the role requirements doesn't change anything. Praetorium and Castrum have 8 people. And what happens? Speed runs since it's a cakewalk. Even the 24 man raids slot five DPS because their one attempt at double tanks (Labyrinths) severely hindered queue times and gave the off tank nothing to do.

No but I wish this game had support roles. This is the first mmorpg I ever played that doesn't have any pure support...bummer.

I like how FFXIV currently handles support by providing synergy between jobs. It just needs some fine tuning. I'd be pretty happy if RDM and SAM both provided synergy to their respective roles; Melee and Ranged Caster.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

The whole healer DPS meta exists because of how damage focused this game is.

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Almost every game is like that >_> Some just hide it better than others. The simplicity of FFXIV doesn't leave much cover.

Anywhoo - A pure support IS possible. You can put it in the DPS slot and then balance it in such a way that the total damage contribution via buffs/debuffs is equivalent to any other DPS. Math allows for such.

The issues however are the following:
- You need to make assumptions about the other team members that may or may not be true (skill level, healer DPSing etc) when balancing the skills, causing them to be better or worse than intended if the team is better/worse than assumed. This is the big hurdle.
- You need to make the support skills scale with gear to make it fit with the progression system of the game
- You need to account for group size, as group buffs and debuffs scale with group size

I have doubts that it would be worth the effort. When I look at Monk, they seem to have trouble just balancing regular support abilities against each other, so... yeah. If they made a support job, it'd probably turn out a mess one way or the other.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

FFXIV will never have a pure support job because people wouldn't take them. A one dimensional focus is why Paladin and White Mage suffer right now.

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That really isn't the problem with those jobs. That issue is nothing except those two do less damage than their counterparts. If balance got removed, I'd bet you see people drop AST like a hot potato.

Coming from someone who's RDMs have been the Tank, DPS and Healers of many of my FFI runs, and one of my all-time favourite FF job, I am pretty okay with it being a DPS this time around.

Technically, tanks should be more tanky than RDMs.
And healers like WHM should be better healers than RDMs.

So RDM falling down to doing damage as their main role makes sense to me -- Now, if they can actually do some of the other things, like healing decently even as a DPS, or have some sort of buff/debuff or tankiness aspects? Then I'll be happy they respected the Jack-Of-All-Trades part of the job.

I'll just be sad if ALL they do is DPS.

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Originally Posted by Zojha

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That would be a fundamental change to XIV's design, hence by previous point. Adding to your list, any pure support job would need to be constantly applying buffs and outpace the damage another dedicated DPS offers. None of this accounts for people's willingness to play it. Unfortunately, non-damaging type jobs aren't popular in any game. Even if they were willing to change how the current system works, I agree, it'd likely wind up a mess.

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Originally Posted by basketofseals

That really isn't the problem with those jobs. That issue is nothing except those two do less damage than their counterparts. If balance got removed, I'd bet you see people drop AST like a hot potato.

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Ehh. You'd be surprised. Although Balance is the biggest problem, the other cards still bring a utility White Mage simply cannot match. They have a single niche: raw healing. It doesn't work because both Astro and Scholar can heal through all content without skipping a beat while providing significantly better utility.