3.3 AST adjustments

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Originally Posted by technole

Noct Aspected Helios change is nice so far, I've seen some situations where that "better than Succor" 120% HP buff was quite noticeable with Synastry buff. I'm sticking of taking AST over SCH with WHM in-content as much as possible to test more. Maybe will have more on Nidhogg EX soon.

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I can't see Nocturnal AST being bad on Nidhogg Ex, but it's also easy enough that you can go with any healer composition and not care much.

There's no situation in the fight where spamming Helios (which is where Nocturnal AST has an edge over SCH in terms of healing) offers an advantage over SCH's CDs. I guess Akh Morn should be very comfortable to heal through with AST+WHM. Disable would beat Virus uptime for Ala Morns early on, I don't think it'd last long enough to cover Akh Morn though. There's also not a whole lot of running around in it, although I can see Lightspeed being useful for the High Jump/Geirskogul/Super Jump combo. Not sure how it'd go in terms of DPS, both WHM and SCH can have a lot of DPS uptime with Regen + fairy.

I'll try running it as Noct AST this week, although I really like having a fairy around and Indomitability definitely has a lot of value in this. My feeling is that Nocturnal AST would at worst be pretty decent at this fight.

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Originally Posted by Kerrigen

I can't see Nocturnal AST being bad on Nidhogg Ex, but it's also easy enough that you can go with any healer composition and not care much.

There's no situation in the fight where spamming Helios (which is where Nocturnal AST has an edge over SCH in terms of healing) offers an advantage over SCH's CDs. I guess Akh Morn should be very comfortable to heal through with AST+WHM. Disable would beat Virus uptime for Ala Morns early on, I don't think it'd last long enough to cover Akh Morn though. There's also not a whole lot of running around in it, although I can see Lightspeed being useful for the High Jump/Geirskogul/Super Jump combo. Not sure how it'd go in terms of DPS, both WHM and SCH can have a lot of DPS uptime with Regen + fairy.

I'll try running it as Noct AST this week, although I really like having a fairy around and Indomitability definitely has a lot of value in this. My feeling is that Nocturnal AST would at worst be pretty decent at this fight.

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I have ran Nidhogg ex as SCH, Diurnal AST and nocturnal AST. Nocturnal is weak there when learning. Indomnibility is just too powerful there when learning this place. SCH spends a lot of the first few phases dps'ing whilst doing some much needed triage healing (indom and lustrate), something that a Nocturnal AST can not mimic at all. The difference in shield potency between N.AST and SCH doesnt really do anything in N.AST favour, as the significant factor for this fight is SCH oGCD heals, Fairy, SCH personal dps and deployed adlo at the correct times. N.AST in this fight really suffers.

Diurnal AST is powerful here as main healer, but have no personal experience on WHM in Nidhogg Ex for a comparsion (i am guessing there is no real difference between a WHM ans D.AST in this fight with the slight exception of D.AST's disable at key points).

Yet to get the clear, but consistantly getting to, and part way through, the final phase. Also this is through partys consisting of some people i know and PF the rest, my raid group doesn't seem to be going in until this weekend.

Ast is perfect atm, even before 3.3

managing cards takes a lot of time when you're not experienced. And cards are really powerful if you're lucky.

Whm is (my opinion) the easiest healer to play. Ast is much more difficult due to his very unique abilities.
So just don't play the job if you don't want to learn. :)

I don't want to see any changes to Ast before the next expansion.

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Originally Posted by Athlir

Ast is perfect atm, even before 3.3

managing cards takes a lot of time when you're not experienced. And cards are really powerful if you're lucky.

Whm is (my opinion) the easiest healer to play. Ast is much more difficult due to his very unique abilities.
So just don't play the job if you don't want to learn. :)

I don't want to see any changes to Ast before the next expansion.

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So at what point in learning AST do we find the heal bot, oGCD heals, dps capability and mana efficiency that allows us to use Nocturnal AST in place of SCH in raids?

The point that is being raised in this thread is mainly centering around Nocturnal sect and how the band aid fixes the devs are attempting doesnt adress the issues at all.

Diurnal AST is fine, Nocturnal is still a mess. If anything, the fact that AST own toolkit has has little useful interaction with Nocturnal sect shows what a strange situation Nocturnal is, and has always, been in.

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Originally Posted by DarkmoonVael

SCH spends a lot of the first few phases dps'ing whilst doing some much needed triage healing (indom and lustrate), something that a Nocturnal AST can not mimic at all. The difference in shield potency between N.AST and SCH doesnt really do anything in N.AST favour, as the significant factor for this fight is SCH oGCD heals, Fairy, SCH personal dps

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Yeah, that's how it's worked for me as a SCH, and I'm pretty sure we'd lose raid DPS with me as an N.AST rather than SCH, and the card buffs definitely wouldn't make up for it. There's also a relatively large amount of combined healer DPS that just couldn't happen without a fairy. But my point is, this fight isn't hard enough for it to really matter in the long run. Let's be honest here, learning with a Nocturnal AST will always be rougher than learning with a SCH due to the difference in oGCD healing alone, but Noct AST will do fine here when all is said and done, and I'd at least encourage people to try.

In my experience, WHM will have an edge over Diurnal AST with the last Akh Morn in the last phase due to being able to use Cure III to make it feel like it never even happened but that's it.

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Originally Posted by Kerrigen

Yeah, that's how it's worked for me as a SCH, and I'm pretty sure we'd lose raid DPS with me as an N.AST rather than SCH, and the card buffs definitely wouldn't make up for it. There's also a relatively large amount of combined healer DPS that just couldn't happen without a fairy. But my point is, this fight isn't hard enough for it to really matter in the long run. Let's be honest here, learning with a Nocturnal AST will always be rougher than learning with a SCH due to the difference in oGCD healing alone, but Noct AST will do fine here when all is said and done, and I'd at least encourage people to try.

In my experience, WHM will have an edge over Diurnal AST with the last Akh Morn in the last phase due to being able to use Cure III to make it feel like it never even happened but that's it.

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Yeah pretty much agree with everything you have written here. When learning this fight the healing combination matters, once its on farm its probably going to not so much matter.

Hopefully Nocturnal AST will get the love it needs to make it viable for learning.

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Originally Posted by DarkmoonVael

Indom is probably the most powerful healer ability in game right now. Also when talking about about SCH and AST aoe healing comparisons, why would you not talk about indom?

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I'd put Assize as the most powerful healer instant in the game because of triple-threat action and that it doesn't consume resources like Lightspeed or Indom does, despite Indom's lowest CD time. Considering no one else has 10% MP restore, and with Indom you are using a possible MP restore capability for an AoE. The only comparison AST has to these skills is Lightspeed as a reduced-instant cast/cost resource. Regardless, all three healers have some method to near-instant AoE that doesn't require Swiftcast. One of which is "free and clear".

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Originally Posted by Kerrigen

I can't see Nocturnal AST being bad on Nidhogg Ex, but it's also easy enough that you can go with any healer composition and not care much.

There's no situation in the fight where spamming Helios (which is where Nocturnal AST has an edge over SCH in terms of healing) offers an advantage over SCH's CDs. I guess Akh Morn should be very comfortable to heal through with AST+WHM. Disable would beat Virus uptime for Ala Morns early on, I don't think it'd last long enough to cover Akh Morn though. There's also not a whole lot of running around in it, although I can see Lightspeed being useful for the High Jump/Geirskogul/Super Jump combo. Not sure how it'd go in terms of DPS, both WHM and SCH can have a lot of DPS uptime with Regen + fairy.

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I still haven't gone Noct AST myself, and that's mainly because of being in the main healer seat for statics I've been with and running with a SCH, but hopefully soon I can get in on off-healer action. D.AST is fine, lightspeed is your quick option in substitute of Assize and I would basically use it early, so you can get it on cooldown in-time for the later phases. About the only differences you have between WHM/D.AST is with Cure III/DS uptime, but you have Disable/Helios/Synastry which i'd argue is just as good. Heck if you get lucky with an AoE Bole it's good here too, it's not needed just like Mantra isn't. But having free mitigation as a main healer always turns me on.

But yes, you don't really need shields that much unlike Thordan Ex when that was new to pad up and carry mistakes. Off-healer here is more for DPS uptime, patchwork, and virus mitigation. WHM/N.AST combo is obviously much better than WHM/WHM but I think we can agree it is another fight where SCH has too much upside. Fairy and Bane use is hard to ignore.

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Originally Posted by technole

I'd put Assize as the most powerful healer instant in the game because of triple-threat action and that it doesn't consume resources like Lightspeed or Indom does, despite Indom's lowest CD time. Considering no one else has 10% MP restore, and with Indom you are using a possible MP restore capability for an AoE. The only comparison AST has to these skills is Lightspeed as a reduced-instant cast/cost resource. Regardless, all three healers have some method to near-instant AoE that doesn't require Swiftcast. One of which is "free and clear".

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AST has nothing like you described above. Lightspeed is nothing like Assize or Indom as anything cast whilst it is active is still triggering the GCD and costs mana. Indom also requires the use of aetherflow to regain stacks, that gives you mana.....Indom can also be used theee time for every Assize. These are all great benefits which also need to be acknowledged.

EDIT assize gives 10%, but then why not acknowledge the 20% gained by aetherflow?

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Originally Posted by DarkmoonVael

AST has nothing like you described above. Lightspeed is nothing like Assize or Indom as anything cast whilst it is active is still triggering the GCD and costs mana. Indom also requires the use of aetherflow to regain stacks, that gives you mana.....Indom can also be used theee time for every Assize. These are all great benefits which also need to be acknowledged.

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Indom 3x for every Assize. True, but we all know what doesn't happen between that. In practicality the statement is a bit of a stretch considering we are talking about a White Mage.

To not acknowledge that AST doesn't have a method for just an instant AoE or to bring a party from the bowels of death to top-levels is a bit wrong considering Aetherflow is required to use Indom which also has a cooldown, and is a resource in which is also restores MP. I said near-instant, you have to acknowledge the lowest cost of MP for AST skills among the healers, along with the pretty steep 25% nerf. Granted because of Lightspeed's longer cooldown and GCD you can't always use it in the same way that you would with Assize/Indom. But there are situations where you can.

Regardless, all three healers have a method to get blow an AoE on-demand, but each one suits their job kit because of the skills they have. Scholar is cooldown limited in raw AoE healing because of being a mitigation healer. It'd be too powerful if it didn't require Aetherflow, and that is already the most powerful MP restoration method in the game.

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Originally Posted by technole

Indom 3x for every Assize. True, but we all know what doesn't happen between that. In practicality the statement is a bit of a stretch considering we are talking about a White Mage.

To not acknowledge that AST doesn't have a method for just an instant AoE or to bring a party from the bowels of death to top-levels is a bit wrong considering Aetherflow is required to use Indom which also has a cooldown, and is a resource in which is also restores MP. I said near-instant, you have to acknowledge the lowest cost of MP for AST skills among the healers, along with the pretty steep 25% nerf. Granted because of Lightspeed's longer cooldown and GCD you can't always use it in the same way that you would with Assize/Indom. But there are situations where you can.

Regardless, all three healers have a method to get blow an AoE on-demand, but each one suits their job kit because of the skills they have. Scholar is cooldown limited in raw AoE healing because of being a mitigation healer. It'd be too powerful if it didn't require Aetherflow, and that is already the most powerful MP restoration method in the game.

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I can kind of see where you are coming from but its not quite the same. AST has Swiftcast/Lightspeed Helios, and that's all it has. It can not boost it aoe healing capability like a WHM or SCH can with oGCD. A WHM can still swiftcast a medica and use assize directly after. A SCH can use emergency Succor then use indom after (or even plain succor, as it still more aoe healing output a AST can do with a single GCD when used alongside indom).

To compare "near instant aoe" is a misnomer, since all you are doing is comparing each healers aoe healing spell that has been used under swiftcast.