So resetting's against the rules now?

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Originally Posted by Eidolon

The good natured people that reset in an effort to help others hopefully won't get caught in a crossfire for those who grief others.

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Here's the problem with this line of thought. The very fact that you don't think about the people you're resetting the mob on is why it's griefing. You think you're making an effort to help others, but you completely ignore those you are affecting in an opposite fashion. You think that because your intentions are good towards one group, you're doing good straight up. That's a very bad train of thought to follow.

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Originally Posted by Aegis

If I can give a counter-example, on our server there is a GC called, let's say, Unique/Untradeable. They make their gil by selling Turn 5 clears and Primal wins. Hunts have reduced their customer base. Now, they run to every NM pop they can and claim it as soon as one of them arrives, regardless of how many people are there. The mob reacts as it always has, by swearing at the puller but attacking anyway because they don't want to lose credit.

Often, someone will reset the NM. I have never once seen the puller criticised in game, but U/U get cussed and blisted out the wazoo.

Yet on the forums everyone appears to think the deserter is the briefer, not the person denying hundreds of people a chance to get seals.

Bear in mind, this FC does nothing to pop the NMs and often causes those who find/pop it to get minimum rewards as the rest of the group wasn't there.

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But see, that's the design intent, first come, first serve. The intent wasn't for half the server to flock over and get credit, which is mostly impossible anyways. Based on how the system works, the more people that are there the higher the chance is that any given group or even solo player will get full or even say "silver" credit. What I mean by Silver is there's 3 tiers. Full is 100%, next is 60% last is 10%. You could say Gold/Silver/Bronze basically.

As for this line "denying hundreds of people a chance to get seals." is totally wrong. That line reeks of an entitlement mentality. No one is entitled to the rewards if they aren't there to earn them. If a small group pulls before the zerg arrives and people don't get full credit, that's how it works.

If I find a B rank, with 1-2 people just standing there staring at it, I'm going to go attack it. I'm not going to wait for the zerg to show up and make it not worth killing.

Not sure why it's griefing if it's something the game lets you do. So if a healer doesn't heal me, I can report him? If a tank doesn't tank mobs in a dungeon I can report them? DPS not good enough? I can report them as well I guess.

If they really wanted to stop this reset issue, they would just make the mobs immune to provoke. Still it's silly that something the game openly allows is a reportable offense.

Mobs in the game are designed to "reset" for two reasons - the first is so that they don't chase players forever, and the second is so that they don't get kited away to exploitative positions.

Resetting a mob because someone else pulled it first and you don't want to lose credit is unintended behavior. Elite marks are given Provoke immunity to prevent this behavior, yet it still occurs through the use of high-level tanks with aggro cooldowns. Not only is it a clear misuse of game mechanics for an unintended cause, it causes harm to the players who rightfully pulled the mob for those who arrived at it. Resets actually punish players outside of "the zerg" by - very frequently - denying them mob credit for the thing they spent time forming a party and entering a fight with due to the massive amounts of players credit gets split by.

Zerg linkshells already control ToD lists, spawn conditions and points, and entire zones with open windows in the name of benefitting "the playerbase". In reality, the only people they benefit with arbitrary etiquette rules is themselves - if you're not part of those groups, you lose playing by them. That's what they want.

You aren't entitled to a hunt mob. The group that pulls it first is. Those are the mechanics of the game, played as intended, not played with side-stepping exploits.

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Originally Posted by Tridus1x

Not sure why it's griefing if it's something the game lets you do. So if a healer doesn't heal me, I can report him? If a tank doesn't tank mobs in a dungeon I can report them? DPS not good enough? I can report them as well I guess.

If they really wanted to stop this reset issue, they would just make the mobs immune to provoke. Still it's silly that something the game openly allows is a reportable offense.

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There's a reason provoke doesn't work on the mobs. Same with FATE mobs. The reset is done by someone who can out enmity the people already on the mob, not provoke. Which is why if I see something, I always claim it on my Paladin since most people can't rip off me if I have those first few hits in.

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Originally Posted by ispano

Here's the problem with this line of thought. The very fact that you don't think about the people you're resetting the mob on is why it's griefing. You think you're making an effort to help others, but you completely ignore those you are affecting in an opposite fashion. You think that because your intentions are good towards one group, you're doing good straight up. That's a very bad train of thought to follow.

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But they are definitely helping a very large group of people and only possibly helping a smaller group. On balance, it's a benefit to the community as a whole, not a detriment.

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Originally Posted by ispano

But see, that's the design intent, first come, first serve. The intent wasn't for half the server to flock over and get credit, which is mostly impossible anyways. Based on how the system works, the more people that are there the higher the chance is that any given group or even solo player will get full or even say "silver" credit. What I mean by Silver is there's 3 tiers. Full is 100%, next is 60% last is 10%. You could say Gold/Silver/Bronze basically.

As for this line "denying hundreds of people a chance to get seals." is totally wrong. That line reeks of an entitlement mentality. No one is entitled to the rewards if they aren't there to earn them. If a small group pulls before the zerg arrives and people don't get full credit, that's how it works.

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Wait what? If there are 100 people there, the chance of a solo player getting anything above 1 seal is essentially nil unless they claim, which thanks to the person who charged in and pulled, they won't get. If the mob gets reset, the person who spotted it may have a chance to get his group there and get more credit.

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Originally Posted by ispano

If I find a B rank, with 1-2 people just standing there staring at it, I'm going to go attack it. I'm not going to wait for the zerg to show up and make it not worth killing.

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And this is incredibly selfish. You would get 5 seals, the 1 or 2 others would get 5, maybe. so a total of 15 seals. If you waited for a hundred people, there would be up to 500 seals rewarded in total (it could be less for those not in a party). Now of course, while the game supports you in what you're doing, it's not wrong by the rules of the game, I certainly find it much ruder than someone resetting in this situation though and worse for the community of your server.

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Originally Posted by Tridus1x

Not sure why it's griefing if it's something the game lets you do. So if a healer doesn't heal me, I can report him? If a tank doesn't tank mobs in a dungeon I can report them? DPS not good enough? I can report them as well I guess.

If they really wanted to stop this reset issue, they would just make the mobs immune to provoke. Still it's silly that something the game openly allows is a reportable offense.

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Depending on the intent behind those three questions, it could be a grief tactics violation. A GM could investigate any of those reports for intent to grief.

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Originally Posted by Aegis

Yet on the forums everyone appears to think the deserter is the briefer, not the person denying hundreds of people a chance to get seals.

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There are MANY flaws with this point/argument that's why. The biggest one being what extent you actually think this falls under as being objective rather than subjective. Why do we not wait for everyone on the server to get there then? Unrealistic right? I agree. Then why wouldn't you wait for the few stragglers that are on their way, but not part of your group/LS/FC? I'm sure you'd tell them "sorry but you gotta get here sooner if you want credit". To what degree does it give you the right to deny them the credit, when your idea is that it's bad for a smaller group to "deny" others the chance at seals? Was it unrealistic for you to wait just an extra minute for them to get there? Groups generally do wait a very short time, but once the horde is there... you better be there in seconds before they pull, otherwise you're SOL.

The entire "greater good" mentality being used here is flawed and always used as a scapegoat for what is actually personal gain. There has never been an example of it being done solely for "everyone to get credit", as that would imply you're thinking about others equally to either yourself or your group/LS/FC/friends. What's that? Some player outside of our circle just joined the fray and the mob is almost dead so he won't get credit? Better reset it - said no one ever. What's that? The mob is almost dead but our group isn't here yet? Better try to steal aggro and reset it until my group/LS/FC gets here - said every self righteous participating player.

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Originally Posted by Aegis

But they are definitely helping a very large group of people and only possibly helping a smaller group. On balance, it's a benefit to the community as a whole, not a detriment.

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Hunting megacorp linkshells who flash mob zones to check their elite mob spawns and rig them with resets are not "the community as a whole". They are a very, very small niche of the community that appear situationally in large numbers.

With ToD monopolization and massive numbers of players sweeping spawnpoints, the common player can't compete even before resets enter the equation, and is forced to either sit out on the activity, or join their zerg. And believe it or not - many of these zergs actually have developed entry fees and engage in abusive social behavior players must participate in to share in their assets.

Zerg hunting as a public activity for "the entire community" is a myth. Zerg hunting excludes basically everyone outside of the linkshell network or FC doing it.

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Originally Posted by Welsper59

TWhat's that? Some player outside of our circle just joined the fray and the mob is almost dead so he won't get credit? Better reset it - said no one ever. What's that? The mob is almost dead but our group isn't here yet? Better try to steal aggro and reset it until my group/LS/FC gets here - said every self righteous participating player.

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Boom. Welpser hits the nail on the head. This perfectly expresses the mindset of hunting shells who use resets to steal credit in the name of their zerg.

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Originally Posted by Eidolon

Would love some clarification on this. A google search is suggesting it's a moral grey area, more so determined by intent rather than a standard definition. Even still, I'd like clarification on this - I tend to constantly reset mobs to give more people time to make it TO the mob. A lot of people appreciate it, but it seems some things just went FUBAR today when I logged in and started to hunt.

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Resetting if you ask me is in itself a form of griefing. After all would you like being a small party that stumbled upon a hunt and had it reset all because of the will of the angry masses? If the excuse of "waiting for more people to show up" is in this equation then please show me where in the TOS it states that anyone has to announce to the world a certain monster spawned. Unless something states this then I'm sorry but intentionally resetting no matter what the reason is should count as harassment.

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Originally Posted by Aegis

But they are definitely helping a very large group of people and only possibly helping a smaller group. On balance, it's a benefit to the community as a whole, not a detriment.

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You're still looking at it wrong. How you SHOULD of said it is like this "But they are definitely helping a very large group of people and hurting a smaller group."

That's the problem, you ignore what you're doing to that smaller group. Just by virtue of forcing them to wait for your zerg to arrive, will potentially cost them full credit, even though they claimed it first.

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Originally Posted by Aegis

Wait what? If there are 100 people there, the chance of a solo player getting anything above 1 seal is essentially nil unless they claim, which thanks to the person who charged in and pulled, they won't get. If the mob gets reset, the person who spotted it may have a chance to get his group there and get more credit.

And this is incredibly selfish. You would get 5 seals, the 1 or 2 others would get 5, maybe. so a total of 15 seals. If you waited for a hundred people, there would be up to 500 seals rewarded in total (it could be less for those not in a party). Now of course, the game supports you in what you're doing, it's not wrong by the rules of the game, I certainly find it much ruder than someone resetting in this situation though and worse for the community of your server.

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It's still nil even if they DO claim. And if they wanted it before others did, they should of claimed it.

And in relation to what I said above, you feel that hurting a small group is ok if it helps a larger group. That's not how it works. There's a reason we have terms like opportunity cost and such. That group was there, the mob was unclaimed and they wanted credit. They pulled and started killing. The zerg was NOT there, they have zero entitlement to the mob. Sure if they get there to do enough to earn credit, fine. But there's NO reason to punish those that found and pulled it because you feel that larger group deserves to get full credit too.

That is simply wrong.