/sighQuote:
Originally Posted by anhaato
Fine, apology accepted. I'm not here to bear grudges.
No, I'm not.Quote:
But you're still intentionally provoking fights,
My original post was "I don't understand the Venat hate. Here's my take on events and why I don't see that as making sense given what we were given in the story."
I made no insult, no attack on anyone, I merely expressed an opinion, and did so with supporting argument and facts. Expressing an opinion is not "provoking fights". If it was, you guys expressing your opposed opinion are "provoking fights", and this thread had over 50 pages in it before my own post!
Because I THOUGHT I was entering into a good faith discussion on a lore forum, not intruding into an echo chamber group chant that disallowed anyone noting that there's a valid contra-position?Quote:
I don't know why you're surprised that people are getting your ass.
Most people aren't sitting on a thread hitting refresh over and over to instantly like posts of someone attacking someone else. Your posts made no actual argument, they were just attacks that you invented on the spot, yet instantly got likes on a forum that doesn't self-refresh in a thread that few people are likely following who aren't actively posting in. I FULLY accept other people here who are closed minded and consider someone merely expressing an opposed viewpoint are worthy of their hate and eternal suffering in the 8th pit of hell - I met quite a few of them in the healer forum (not agreeing that healing is terribly boring and going to lead to the total collapse of the game is apparently the worst thing a Human being can possibly do) - but your likes are too instant for that to be a very likely conclusion. It also doesn't help you and some of the other posters here use almost identical language that MIGHT be coming from the same person. [I'll also note here that, as of this moment, my post here is 10 mins after yours I'm replying to, which has no likes, despite both your prior posts getting 2 likes in less time than that. Interesting that the likes stopped as soon as I called you on it...]Quote:
Also, have you considered that I'm not the only one that doesn't like you?
But, that's still irrelevant. The point stands you made up an accusation against me based entirely on your own imagination and several of your groupies liked it outright because you all are so filled with irrational hate that reason and facts seem not to be relevant.
.
/sigh
But this isn't productive.
I explained why I don't get the anti-Venat side, and since then, have not really seen any counter-arguments other than various flavors of namecalling.
If I want to be EXTREMELY charitable, it's people that think she might have had other options (even though the story all but says she tried other things and nothing worked) and that she should have talked to Emet and the Convocation (even though the story outright SHOWS US that wouldn't work when we see how Emet reacted before the memory wipe), and that diminishing a culture is the same thing as killing people, and that's only acceptable if you're on Zodiark's side...for...reasons.
I don't get it, but I get some people want their anti-hero/shade of gray world, and that's fine. You can have that headcanon, and I shall leave you to it. Just don't accuse other people of living in headcanon, being "simps", etc, who refuse to subscribe to your own.
Who knew the 6.15 Omega Quests… (Spoilers)
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06-30-2022, 04:17 PMRenathras
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06-30-2022, 05:02 PMRulakirAh, no, that doesn't exist here. Also, I wouldn't say you entered in good faith. Much of your original statement was your own personal interpretation and conjecture. Then you insinuated if I didn't agree with your assessment that I must've skipped cutscenes. There's nowhere for a discussion to go at that point, which is why I had nothing else to say.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
*points to next quote*Quote:
It also doesn't help you and some of the other posters here use almost identical language that MIGHT be coming from the same person.
Likewise, this is almost identical language to other posters. Are you an alt? (Incidentally, your previous post about lies getting likes, yes, absolutely, and it's been that way for as long as I've been here.)Quote:
If I want to be EXTREMELY charitable, it's people that think she might have had other options (even though the story all but says she tried other things and nothing worked) and that she should have talked to Emet and the Convocation (even though the story outright SHOWS US that wouldn't work when we see how Emet reacted before the memory wipe), and that diminishing a culture is the same thing as killing people, and that's only acceptable if you're on Zodiark's side...for...reasons.
Not entirely sure what this is supposed to mean? I would've loved actual nuance in EW, but we didn't get it. A 'white' (figuratively and literally :P) character doing a 'black' action when that action is not considered black by either the story or the characters within it doesn't make grey. Venat is the only person who says what she did was unjust and unkind and she has no regrets, 10/10 would sunder again, she got exactly the ending she wanted.Quote:
I don't get it, but I get some people want their anti-hero/shade of gray world, and that's fine.
Zodiark doesn't have a side? His purpose is in my sig: Salvation. I perhaps picked an inconvenient time to start repping Elidibus with all this conspiracy talk of alts, but I am weary of the narrative which couldn't have happened if he hadn't sacrificed himself to save the world, a protection that the sundered continued to enjoy for 12k years while Hydaelyn is attributed with forestalling the Final Days. I've since been told it's but one of many translation errors in EW. Particularly frustrating because much of what this forum takes as canon is actually worded so differently in FR, DE, and JP that my foreign friends have started mocking the EN translation for being so ridiculously bad. I'm beginning to understand why when I talk to some people about EW it's like we played different games. -
06-30-2022, 09:59 PMAlleoI enjoyed reading your posts and I agree that your big post itself was not provoking in such a way to "deserve" all these attacks. Sadly this is just how the lore forum is now. :/Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
Well as a female gamer who likes Venat as a character, I am seemingly now a simp too. Maybe one day I will learn to like the right characters and not such bland ones! (And yes this is ironic) -
07-01-2022, 12:13 AMNecroticaI am starting to think a huge part of the anger/friction/division over the plot is not the fault of the writers, but of the horrific localization team.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rulakir
Not sure what is going on behind closed doors, but I am hesitant to put it down to mere incompetence. Maybe they think EN players can't handle nuance? -
07-01-2022, 01:42 AMSannaRIt wouldn't be the first time parts of the company didn't think part of its Western fanbase couldn't handle some things. It's how we ended up with Final Fantasy Mystic Quest.Quote:
Originally Posted by Necrotica
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07-01-2022, 01:52 AMSannaRHow the lore section has been shifting over to is why I hardly post in the General section. Besides feeling that it's not worth my mental and emotional state to get involved in the types of arguments where one needs to bring up even the smallest of detail or people will harp on you for not mentioning it. That is when the front page isn't getting flooded by a certain someone and their actual alt accounts.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alleo
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07-01-2022, 02:51 AMKizuyaKatogamiWell considering they don’t think the EN players can handle any character deaths….you aren’t too far off.Quote:
Originally Posted by Necrotica
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07-01-2022, 02:52 AMVeloranQuote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
You created a parallel between the Ancients and the Nazis as part of your argument, inherently tying them with anybody who happens to like or agree with the Ancients. Don't come here, instantly invoke Godwin's Law, and play the semantics game trying to pretend like you never drew the comparison to begin with.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
You're right that a lot of these arguments began in ShB, in that period more centered on Emet-Selch. And a lot of the argumentation made then about him is completely incompatible with the defenses of Venat now. In ShB, when Emet-Selch was derided, it was often under the logic that no matter how good the future he created or how bad the sundered might be, he simply didn't have the right to take others' lives for his own cause. At that time we weren't presented with any of this existentialist inevitable doom for the Ancients, or of some hanging threat that they couldn't deal with, the conflict was simply their world versus the current world, with the resolution that even if his actions ultimately created an eternal perfect paradise free of all the horrible things in the sundered world, it was still wrong because of how many lives he'd be destroying along the way. In other words, the ends don't justify the means.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
But with Venat, all of those arguments flew out the window. Now, even though she genocided her own people, introduced millennia on untold suffering, and allowed for the destruction of multiple planets, all just to deal with a single threat, she is "at her core a good person, making the best of a bad situation", who did the only thing she could have to reach an end that was desirable.
The truth is that Venat is exactly the same as Emet-Selch. As the developers have directly stated, Venat is an embodiment of that same "Ancient way of thinking" that you yourself are decrying so much. And even though the MSQ didn't care to so much as question her (Perhaps in part because the conflict in this "conclusion to the Hydaelyn and Zodiark saga" was in fact only tangentially related to them), the Omega quests calls all of this, and her extreme similarity to the antagonists, out explicitly.
I think the real reason why there's so much vitriol on this topic is that Endwalker took a conflict that had already polarized people, and flipped the script and swapped the actor's roles into positions they'd previously been acting in opposition to. This creates so much cognitive dissonance and retroactive hypocrisy that any conversation is doomed to fail from the getgo. That's without even getting into the lore minutia or specific plot details. -
07-01-2022, 03:07 AMAwesomeJr44Not funny! Didn't laugh!Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
Maybe... People like his posts... cause they like his posts... and they happen to be here...Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
But let's go with the less likely option as it lets you accuse the opposition of being bots thus invalidating their argument.
You implied the Ancients were becoming nazis...Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
You were called out for calling the Ancients nazis...
You asked for proof...
You were given proof...
But yeah, people are making stuff up about you?
B R U H
Comes in, proceeds to call characters nazis, gets upset when called out for doing so, calls people alts to shut down discussion. Ah yes, I love a good faith discussion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jemachu
It's not, but it let's him shut down any discussion from anyone who disagrees with him. After all, they're just alts/bots, they don't have real opinions.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jemachu
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07-01-2022, 03:17 AMAwesomeJr44You don't come into lore forums calling characters nazis, and then call anyone who asks why an alt if you want a good faith discussion. He came in here, and provoked bad faith discussion and got surprised when he got it. Don't pretend like he didn't just because you agree with his points.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alleo
Why does this matter? This does not impact anything whatsoever unless you're trying to play the sexist card. I'm gonna assume you're not as that's more charitable.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alleo
You have to admit that it'd be easier to not call Venat enjoyers simps if Venat didn't commit textbook genocide for REALLY shady reasoning, and was never called out on it sufficiently by the game. That makes her very unlikable. (Meanwhile Shb makes it VERY clear that Emet is not a objectively good perfect hero)Quote:
Originally Posted by Alleo
There's no 'right' character to like, but when your favorite character is unliked by a good portion of the community for very understandable reasons, people hating on them is going to be something you have to get used to. People don't like that Venat killed her own species off (with few exceptions) with horrible reasoning for doing so, and that the characters in the game act like she did nothing wrong. Especially after the Omega mini questline in 6.15 where the sundered's chance at resisting Meteion's dynamis was concluded to be near random. Like whoever you like, but Venat just wasn't a well-written character and if you're gonna like her, you're gonna have to accept that many other won't.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alleo