What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

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Originally Posted by OhNooo

A thousand times this. I don't want to keep bringing up HW but I still maintain that it's the most well-rounded story expansion for me and I wish they would go back to a similar localized story with some fantasy but not too over the top. EW definitely felt over the top for me, and I felt...for lack of a better word...kind of like my intelligence was being insulted? Lol that sounds harsh to say but I just got the impression that they felt like they could just throw anything at the playerbase and they'd eat it all up, which is kind of the truth if we're basing it off of the reviews from reddit and other places. I felt like I was the odd person out seeing all of the comments about people crying and thinking it topped Shadowbringers.

But I'm glad that there is at least a place where people can express their opinions and have a civil discussion for the most part, because trying to post contrary opinions about the story on reddit will mostly just get you down-voted to oblivion and sometimes harassed in dms telling you to go back to wow even though you've never played it lol.

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The writer responsible for Heavensward went to work on FFXVI, apparently. I hope that means that he'll return to work on FFXIV once FFXVI releases. EW felt like it wanted me to not think too much about the implications or consequences of what was happening at the time in a way that was far removed from what previous expansions had done in regards to noting that the various conflicts and character struggles were but a clash of ideals and different perspectives.

I'm pleased, at least, that we're apparently going back to becoming an adventurer again. Hopefully that'll involve scaling back the situation and distancing our character from being the saviour of the entire universe...to something a bit more humble and relatable. I don't play games to stroke the ego of either myself or my character, so the constant talk about how 'amazing' and 'heroic' my character is simply doesn't do much for me. Each to their own, though!

As for Reddit, the mere existence of a downvote system is unfortunately something that is readily abused. Especially in an era where many seek to echo whatever opinion will earn them upvotes for fear of going against the grain.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Venat's entire plan is a very big if. Literally relies on one person, whom of which failed and required time manipulation to be brought back.

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You have some resiliency good sir. Appreciate it.

Since we're clearly not supposed to think for ourselves, any ideas why Square went this route? Time travel rarely ever ends well or emotionally satisfactory, so why would they risk it?

Though I can't help but ask what anyone would consider a more appropriate ending? Maybe with all the parties still involved?

The question's open to anyone really.

So maybe I just got it entirely wrong but my understanding for Venat's creation of Hydaelyn and the sundering wasn't that there would be repeated offering to Zodiark or that she had just lost hope in her people, but because they made it clear in no uncertain terms they were going to use Zodiark to bring about a utopia without strife or suffering, a paradise of pure joy which she knew from Meteion was only going to end with the death of all on the star. We also see this in the Dead Ends, a star that created the most benevolent of deities to end all of their lives. She performed the sundering because the ancients left to their own devices and power would move towards that future where they all would be longing for death.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

It was not just Ironworks but the survivors in that timeline banding together to work toward the goal of sending the Tower and G'raha back to avert the Calamity.

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Not true.

"They eventually arrived at the conclusion that they lacked the means to restore their shattered world, with their only viable option being to entrust future generations with the knowledge that they had accumulated, in the hope that their successors may one day find a solution. This was met with some resistance, however, as many expressed disapproval at the idea of forsaking those in the present day in order to save a world they would never live to see."

"Their aim was to change the past to create an alternate reality in which the Calamity never occurred─a feat rendered conceivable by their knowledge of the advanced technologies of fallen civilizations. However, many of those who would bear the burden of continued existence in a world ravaged by Black Rose failed to see this as a viable stratagem. Such responses were consistent with my projections, as it is generally the primary objective of all life-forms to secure their own survival in the here and now.

Many of Master Cid’s followers either refused to cooperate or expressed a desire to leave the Ironworks altogether. Certain former employees went as far as to appropriate equipment and supplies by force before heading into the wilderness to fend for themselves."

"In addition, by presenting their plan as an attempt to save the Warrior of Light rather than a bid to rewrite history, they were able to gain the support from survivors of many different species and subgroups."

In other words, the Ironworks couldn't get people on their side until they began lying about what they were planning to do by using our name.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

But yes, to them there was no future and they were willing to sacrifice billions of people if it meant bringing back their loved ones. Its not any different from the ancient's sacrifices.Also, i dont believe they exactly got the entire world's consent on the action either. Did many people agree to it? Sure. But i dont recall it saying everyone agreed, just the group that they had at the time.In fact, isnt it stated they faced heavy opposition for the plan from various people?

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After the First got rejoined, Black Rose covered almost all of Aldenard and Ilsabard. They don't come out in MSQ or any stories and give numbers, but I don't think there were billions of people left.

Ah, the previous poster provided the story I needed

"Black Rose wrought immeasurable destruction to organic life-forms, resulting in widespread environmental upheaval. The ambient aether ceased to flow along its normal channels and stagnated, rendering the land barren and uninhabitable. Inevitably, the wild imbalance of natural energies affected neighboring regions and, in some cases, led to sudden and unpredictable alterations in flora and fauna. Overnight, the crops on which man relied for sustenance became toxic, further increasing the death toll. In the aftermath of these unprecedented disasters, the communities formed by sentient beings fell into disarray, and all forms of societal organization, from small settlements to entire nations, were abandoned as individuals struggled desperately to avoid annihilation.

It did not take long for the cascading environmental repercussions to be felt in Garlean territory. Due to the aftereffects of Black Rose, the ceruleum that once supported daily life in the Empire and powered its magitek armies failed to combust. The machines duly fell silent, bereft of the energy required to set them in motion.

The creatures that escaped the initial devastation were thrust into a battle for survival. Among them, those belonging to supposedly civilized races were particularly quick to turn on their brethren in a bid to seize control of land and resources. While they attempted to justify these wanton acts of violence with a range of superficially logical explanations, it is my assessment that greed and desperation were the primary motivating factors behind their actions."

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Originally Posted by Stachiko

Though I can't help but ask what anyone would consider a more appropriate ending? Maybe with all the parties still involved?

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There's a conversation between Emet-Selch and the Warrior of Darkness back in Kholusia after bringing everybody together from across Norvrandt in order to ascend the lift. It basically comes down to him offering some praise for the WoD defying the odds and taking the difficult route to find a third way forward that brings both opposing sides in a conflict together rather than simply wiping out the opposition completely.

So, something along those lines would have pleased me and lessened the blow of seeing the Scions partake of yet more fake deaths only to miraculously and conveniently return minutes later with zero lasting consequences to speak of.

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Originally Posted by Stachiko

You have some resiliency good sir. Appreciate it.

Since we're clearly not supposed to think for ourselves, any ideas why Square went this route? Time travel rarely ever ends well or emotionally satisfactory, so why would they risk it?

Though I can't help but ask what anyone would consider a more appropriate ending? Maybe with all the parties still involved?

The question's open to anyone really.

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Probably using the Echo as opposed to time travel to peer into the past. Keeping her memory wiped. Introducing a third party manipulator as the instigator of the conflict between the Convocation and Venat; they already had something like this in Fandaniel. There was the mystery of what Azem was up to - maybe have their current soul shard pick up on that and forge their own way forward, rather than hers. Move the Sundering to an accidental act flowing from this. Obviously going back in time and saving the ancient world would either require a new game or a branching AU, neither of which is realistic in the context of a single expansion, even if the latter is something they could potentially do as an expansion based on the current story. But of all the things I hated most, it is the time travel and associated shenanigans.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

An apt summary. It's as if the game shifted from appealing to players who read between the lines and piece things together to make sense of a deeper narrative...to directly pandering to those who burst into tears the moment another fake death happens whilst sad music plays only to rush to Reddit to tell everybody how they were 'screaming' and 'crying' and they 'can't even right now'.

Meanwhile the characters and factions that actually do face incomprehensible levels of loss and dread are urged to just get over it whilst desperate comparisons are made to pretend as if the loss of the likes of Moenbryda is anywhere near as tragic as the loss of literally every single member of one's family, their friends, neighbours and every single person they have ever known.

It's why I'm raising an eyebrow at the implication that people 'just don't like venat' when the criticism is aimed at more than just a single character!

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This is exceptionally condescending Theodric.

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Originally Posted by Stachiko

Since we're clearly not supposed to think for ourselves, any ideas why Square went this route? Time travel rarely ever ends well or emotionally satisfactory, so why would they risk it?
Though I can't help but ask what anyone would consider a more appropriate ending? Maybe with all the parties still involved?
The question's open to anyone really.

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I had always thought we would be exploring a possible third option since Azem left the convocation and didn't respond to Venat and her supporters (my head canon is that Azem was trying to find another solution and didn't agree with either side, but who knows). I also thought we would end up needing Zodiark to help us with the mysterious sound or something - or something where we needed to use both Hydaelyn and Zodiark as a solution because of the whole light and dark needing to be balanced trope. That was one possibility in my head, but I also suspected that no matter what solution we found, neither Hydaelyn or Zodiark would be able to remain alive, whether we killed both of them or if they died by some other means.

I definitely did not expect for them to go in this direction not because I was attached to certain characters and wanted to the story to go my way, but because it all seems so disjointed and hastily put together to me. It looks like they had to hurry up and finish the arc, so maybe they decided to use the time travel so they wouldn't have to address certain things. Who knows.

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Originally Posted by OhNooo

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This. I among many others I'm sure derive my enjoyment from how well everything comes together, as well as my own personal enjoyment of what's happening on screen. my biggest issue with Endwalker is that it didn't quite stick the landing on both fronts and heavily prioritizes the fun aspect of the game's narrative over the practicality of anything that's going on.

To give an example, Heavensward which is my personal favorite expansion has this moment towards the end where Hraesvelgr of his own volition hands us his eye in a historic turning point that calls back to the conclusion of whatever feud the Dravanians and Ishgardians initially had ages ago. Both this conflict and the dragonsong war are ended with Hraesvelgr joining hands with another mortal becoming living symbols of unity between the land and the heavens. the scene also makes sense practically because it's already been long established that dragon eyes are vessels to a near infinite reserve of aether, and azure dragoons are empowered by use of this power. this whole segment is both fun to watch, and it doesn't make you question the logistics of what's going on.

Compare all of that with a scene towards the end of Endwalker where you summon Emet and Hythlodeus to summon a bed of flowers, Meteion gets sad, and Emet says "These Elpis blooms serve as proof that this realm is not utterly devoid of hope. No more can you deny its power. No more is yours the dominion of despair," then suddenly we can just bring everyone back with no repercussions... but why? what's stopping her from just undoing everyone again? What is even going on? I know I'm supposed to feel happy/sad cuz the scene is clearly trying its hardest to illicit an emotion out of me here, but something about this explanation just isn't clicking with me.

Ultimately, I feel the story ventured too deep into fanservice territory this time around and allowed sentimentality to drive the story in place of logic. I mean, I won't lie, they did a damn fine job on that end. If all they wanted to do was give me an adrenaine rush during the last quarter of the final boss, or during the badass fight with Zenos at the edge of the universe etc., then they succeeded. I just wish I could say I loved the expansions story beyond what it had to offer on the surface level.