What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

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Originally Posted by Garet

This really says a lot about your character LOL. But I guess this just proves the statement I made that you replied to hahaha

BTW Emet is a guy does it mean I am into guys as well is the reason I like his character as well? :))

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Yeah, none of us like venat for her wit and snark. Just cuz she's a woman.


Dumb. That's pretty sexist if you ask me lol.


I guess none of us like emet for his wit and snark either.

I seem to remember him being a fan favorite last expansion, but apparently as soon as they add a female counterpart it's "everyone just likes her cuz woman"

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Originally Posted by Garet

This really says a lot about your character LOL. But I guess this just proves the statement I made that you replied to hahaha

BTW Emet is a guy does it mean I am into guys as well is the reason I like his character as well? :))

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How does his statement say a lot about his character. Lets not insinuate things based off of a one off comment. Lets not play oblivious. Typically females are sided with more times than not because theyre prettier and less evil looking. We even see this in game when Omega chooses to use a female form to speak with us after we defeat it. Its used for sympathy.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

Yeah, none of us like venat for her wit and snark. Just cuz she's a woman.


Dumb. That's pretty sexist if you ask me lol.


I guess none of us like emet for his wit and snark either.

I seem to remember him being a fan favorite last expansion, but apparently as soon as they add a female counterpart it's "everyone just likes her cuz woman"

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I wouldnt say Venat is really a female counterpart to Emet. In any way actually outside of the two being ancients. Emet was doing what he did for his people because he had hope for them. She had no jope for them whatsoever and gave up on them. Not really many similarities.

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Originally Posted by Garet

This is why she had prepared the moon ark in case we failed. She did not go into it blindly believing we would surely win. Hence she even tested us before allowing us to fight meteion to measure if we even have a fighting chance. :)

Venat fought with the other ancient till the end. This is one of the reason she did not reveal what happened with the mind wipe because she feared Hermes might go against them against if he regained his memory of meteion and she wanted him as part of the convocation and an ally against the final days instead of an enemy. The vidoe posted here by me and another poster basically show a lot of her reasoning. :)

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Except the moon ark wouldve amounted to nothing. The shards wouldve all died. Everyone dead. Only the people on the source would live and even then, Meteion would get them eventually. She didnt...have to tell Hermes. She could simply tell Emet and Hythlo. If it got to that point where Hermes was such a hindrance to what they were doing...its a good thing Pandemonium exists isnt it?

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Originally Posted by Theodric

An apt summary. It's as if the game shifted from appealing to players who read between the lines and piece things together to make sense of a deeper narrative...to directly pandering to those who burst into tears the moment another fake death happens whilst sad music plays only to rush to Reddit to tell everybody how they were 'screaming' and 'crying' and they 'can't even right now'.

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A thousand times this. I don't want to keep bringing up HW but I still maintain that it's the most well-rounded story expansion for me and I wish they would go back to a similar localized story with some fantasy but not too over the top. EW definitely felt over the top for me, and I felt...for lack of a better word...kind of like my intelligence was being insulted? Lol that sounds harsh to say but I just got the impression that they felt like they could just throw anything at the playerbase and they'd eat it all up, which is kind of the truth if we're basing it off of the reviews from reddit and other places. I felt like I was the odd person out seeing all of the comments about people crying and thinking it topped Shadowbringers.

But I'm glad that there is at least a place where people can express their opinions and have a civil discussion for the most part, because trying to post contrary opinions about the story on reddit will mostly just get you down-voted to oblivion and sometimes harassed in dms telling you to go back to wow even though you've never played it lol.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

Yeah, none of us like venat for her wit and snark. Just cuz she's a woman.


Dumb. That's pretty sexist if you ask me lol.


I guess none of us like emet for his wit and snark either.

I seem to remember him being a fan favorite last expansion, but apparently as soon as they add a female counterpart it's "everyone just likes her cuz woman"

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Yea I like both their characters. Emet is awesome even back in ShB :) And when he appeared at the end of Endwalker to help us it was so awesome haha

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Just like how the final days decimated not just a couple continents, but the entire world. What other choice did they have but to summon Zodiark? Did they rely on him? Yes. But it literally isnt any different from how people rely upon the WoL, or how we ourselves are constantly relying on higher up entities to help us. We're shown in the short story that they actually do eventually choose to live on, along with Midgardsormr i believe. So it was very much possible for them to continue through instead of erasing an entire timeline of people to resurrect one person.

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Middy doesn't wake up until after the Tower is sent back. The Biggs in the story muses that removing it may have been why he woke up. And Middy does ask about it. It's when they don't disappear and then he wakes up and says he will help them and give them knowledge that they start considering they may be able to make something more of their current reality. Cid survived and started the idea. There's nothing spelling this out, but it's possible something just broke in him when he lost all of us. So maybe he could have found a way and his heart wasn't in it anymore. But that doesn't mean everyone 200 years after him had to agree to the plan and not see other ways. That's why it reads to me that there really wasn't a future to look forward to. Just like with the Ancients before they summoned Zodiark.And I don't see many arguing that the Ancients were wrong for the initial summoning of Zodiark and replenishing the planet. Both groups were in a bad situation and tried to take a path to change that.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

How does his statement say a lot about his character. Lets not insinuate things based off of a one off comment. Lets not play oblivious. Typically females are sided with more times than not because theyre prettier and less evil looking. We even see this in game when Omega chooses to use a female form to speak with us after we defeat it. Its used for sympathy.



I wouldnt say Venat is really a female counterpart to Emet. In any way actually outside of the two being ancients. Emet was doing what he did for his people because he had hope for them. She had no jope for them whatsoever and gave up on them. Not really many similarities.



Except the moon ark wouldve amounted to nothing. The shards wouldve all died. Everyone dead. Only the people on the source would live and even then, Meteion would get them eventually. She didnt...have to tell Hermes. She could simply tell Emet and Hythlo. If it got to that point where Hermes was such a hindrance to what they were doing...its a good thing Pandemonium exists isnt it?

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I mean, she also did it for her people. She just had a different method.


Agree to disagree there.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

I mean, she also did it for her people. She just had a different method.


Agree to disagree there.

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Yep the sundered are basically still technically the ancients but sundered in their forms. A kind of reincarnation I guess.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

I mean, she also did it for her people. She just had a different method.


Agree to disagree there.

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How exactly did she do it for her people? She went behind their backs, kept secrets from them and then ripped their lives from them, tearing them apart and them losing their entire memories of who they once were. If that was her "doing it for her own people," then shes just a sadist.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

Middy doesn't wake up until after the Tower is sent back. The Biggs in the story muses that removing it may have been why he woke up. And Middy does ask about it. It's when they don't disappear and then he wakes up and says he will help them and give them knowledge that they start considering they may be able to make something more of their current reality. Cid survived and started the idea. There's nothing spelling this out, but it's possible something just broke in him when he lost all of us. So maybe he could have found a way and his heart wasn't in it anymore. But that doesn't mean everyone 200 years after him had to agree to the plan and not see other ways. That's why it reads to me that there really wasn't a future to look forward to. Just like with the Ancients before they summoned Zodiark.And I don't see many arguing that the Ancients were wrong for the initial summoning of Zodiark and replenishing the planet. Both groups were in a bad situation and tried to take a path to change that.

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Sadly, there are people in this very thread bashing the Ancients for resorting to sacrifice and summoning Zodiark to end the Final Days. Doesnt make much sense but its there. As for Ironworks, In the end, we dont know what would have happened exactly had they waited. But yes, to them there was no future and they were willing to sacrifice billions of people if it meant bringing back their loved ones. Its not any different from the ancient's sacrifices.Also, i dont believe they exactly got the entire world's consent on the action either. Did many people agree to it? Sure. But i dont recall it saying everyone agreed, just the group that they had at the time.In fact, isnt it stated they faced heavy opposition for the plan from various people?

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Originally Posted by Theodric

An apt summary. It's as if the game shifted from appealing to players who read between the lines and piece things together to make sense of a deeper narrative...to directly pandering to those who burst into tears the moment another fake death happens whilst sad music plays only to rush to Reddit to tell everybody how they were 'screaming' and 'crying' and they 'can't even right now'.

Meanwhile the characters and factions that actually do face incomprehensible levels of loss and dread are urged to just get over it whilst desperate comparisons are made to pretend as if the loss of the likes of Moenbryda is anywhere near as tragic as the loss of literally every single member of one's family, their friends, neighbours and every single person they have ever known.

It's why I'm raising an eyebrow at the implication that people 'just don't like venat' when the criticism is aimed at more than just a single character!

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Yep, it's more than just her character, but all the plot contrivances that went into it as well, while glossing over a lot of the subtler points they had introduced in SHB - that stylised scene being a good example of it. It doesn't flatter her much, IMO, and it also doesn't do justice to the established narrative.

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Originally Posted by OhNooo

A thousand times this. I don't want to keep bringing up HW but I still maintain that it's the most well-rounded story expansion for me and I wish they would go back to a similar localized story with some fantasy but not too over the top. EW definitely felt over the top for me, and I felt...for lack of a better word...kind of like my intelligence was being insulted? Lol that sounds harsh to say but I just got the impression that they felt like they could just throw anything at the playerbase and they'd eat it all up, which is kind of the truth if we're basing it off of the reviews from reddit and other places. I felt like I was the odd person out seeing all of the comments about people crying and thinking it topped Shadowbringers.

But I'm glad that there is at least a place where people can express their opinions and have a civil discussion for the most part, because trying to post contrary opinions about the story on reddit will mostly just get you down-voted to oblivion and sometimes harassed in dms telling you to go back to wow even though you've never played it lol.

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Yup, I've seen redditors descend to stalking where criticism is offered, plus exhibiting a level of pettiness seldom ever seen on this site.

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Originally Posted by Nilroreo

Exactly! They were only doing what they could for the salvation of their star! They had their worlds shattered by a doomsday event and longed for the world they've lost. They determined that erasure of an entire world is preferable to living in hell. It's as you say, "It was worth it for them if another timeline had a better future."

Btw, can you guess which of the two I've been talking about?

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One difference. The people in the 8th Umbral Calamity determined that their OWN erasure was preferable to living in hell. It was not just Ironworks but the survivors in that timeline banding together to work toward the goal of sending the Tower and G'raha back to avert the Calamity.

If the Ancients had stopped with the second sacrifice, it would be the same situation. But they wanted to sacrifice other new lives after the world was restored to a livable state just to get their own people inside Zodiark back.