I agree nothing is without cost and if I did not make that clear sorry not the best when it comes to conveying points. Just from my personal perceptive if a change can be done that is minimal and has very little effect on the overall game and has the potential to prevent even one negative experience I say go for it. That is just the postilion I hold, and I do understand where many of you are coming from, and while I know my position is naive and sophomoric I do not think I doubt I will ever see the light behind a complete and total reactive mindset to combat harassment. I understand that harassment in general is perspective based, and thus differs from person to person.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
I understand and agree with what many have said, the changes that I am asking for do cost associated with them, but from my perspective it is worth it, and I understand for many it is not worth it.
Tank dps harrasment
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11-23-2017, 03:13 AMAwha
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11-23-2017, 05:46 AMTaika
I don't really think that hiding your FFlogs (or, alternatively, opting out from it) does anyone any favours. I had a RDM in my OS4 group today who had hidden them. They did under 3k DPS on Exdeath and were in the bottom 10% for both parts of the fight. Had I seen that beforehand, I would still have kept them in the party, but now seeing those numbers during/after the run, it made me feel like they were aware that they're not able to carry their own weight (if all party members would have been at their level, we would not have been able to clear even with 0 deaths), and instead of trying to do something about it they chose to hide it and get carried.
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11-23-2017, 07:29 AMTaranTatsuuchi
After reading this last page I get the feeling...
The people who would harass over the logs, the ones that would discriminate based on if someone has opted out of FFLogs...
If it was changed to opt-in, those people would require that the players trying to join their parties would have to go and opt-in when they attempt to join, and if someone refuses they'd just discriminate anyway... -
11-27-2017, 06:40 PMArkturius
people will judge you due to logs no matter what hiding them just makes it look worse and if you only have 2 logs up your clearly not part of the major endgame community as 99.9% of the better raid groups / puggers always upload
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11-27-2017, 07:55 PMShurrikhanThat seems the logical outcome, to be honest, so long as SSS itself remains unable to actually verify readiness to perform as expected (especially as its completion is not currently even required to have queue, nor any metrics are externally visible for it).Quote:
Originally Posted by TaranTatsuuchi
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11-27-2017, 08:00 PMKaivaC
o.0 This is still ongoing? Oh, I wonder how many different arguments are going on right now? 10? 20? I need cliff notes!
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11-27-2017, 08:49 PMAwha
While making opt-in would still resort to people being discriminated or looked down on it would also help people avoid situations such when people look up the logs of the person in question only to mock them instead of simply saying no you do not meet our groups requirements. While rare it does happen. It will not solve much of anything, but at the very least it will give time for people to avoid the situation by either not trying to join a group that asks for logs, or more extreme blacklist someone that asks for logs to prevent being called trash.
It would be a preemptive blacklist, but this option would allow time for such action instead of a reactive one.
Sure people will still be looked down on if they hide their logs, but at the very least they will have more warning and can avoid those wonderful people that for some reason simply are unable to say no you do not meet the requirements for the our group, and go with begone shitter etc . . .
Also does not make sense why a feature that is not part of the base game provided nor supported by SE has to be opted out of anyways. Should honestly be the other way around. I never said it would solve every issue, but I am of the mindset even if adds one extra layer of protection or limits abuse by even 1% it is worth the time / cost investment.
I know not everyone is of the same opinion, and I doubt anyone will change their mind on this topic anytime soon. Still a fun conversation. It just sucks when I see it happen or hear about it. I do understand why it happens, someone is trying to set up a group and is getting tells from people with sub-par logs that clearly show no effort what so ever, patients wares thin. -
11-28-2017, 02:27 AMKaldeaSahalineLegit question - how often have you personally been harassed or mocked for your performance?Quote:
Originally Posted by Awha
How often have you seen this happen to someone else? Please provide very specific examples.
I already explained how subsets of communities work. You're welcome to refute my assumptions on that with data/insight. Good players don't get harassed. Players who do not participate in high end content do not get harassed either (these are large majority). Why would I harass someone in a DF group for a expert roulette over their savage logs? I wouldn't. and honestly I'd bet money on it that it happens less than 1% of the time.
That leaves one subset who faces POTENTIAL harassment, not even guaranteed harassment.
You're asking to get rid of cars because people get into collisions/die. That's a ridiculously naive position to hold. It's terrible that ANYONE has to face harassment. You won't find a single person in this thread who says otherwise, but to upend entire tools over it when the existing ones work better (report -> blacklist). -
11-28-2017, 02:48 AMAwhaOverall this has nothing to do with me personally but I didonce during a cutter's cry by a RDM since I was unable to keep up with his damage as an unsynced dragoon. It was a funny moment though.Quote:
Originally Posted by KaldeaSahaline
How often have seen this happen to other people? In my FC we get people complaining about it maybe two to three times every so often. This is the point, as I have said I do not care how often it happens, my position if it has the potential to either prevent or mitigate harassment by 1% it is worth the expense. As I said this would not end harassment, but in the case of my FC mates that have terrible logs due but as FC we are hyper causal and have no qualms carrying a person through content or if they run content with other groups that understand the difficulties they have, and if they need help simply ask within the FC or friends of the FC. The FC members in question sometimes want to do content and since we as a whole we are not good enough to carry three people through content, and other groups are busy we have to rotate them around.
So when they are not up in the rotation sometimes they try outside means, which results in some colorful responses. Now here hard part, I know some of the people that have made these rude comments to our FC mates in the past did not make said comments with malicious intent, and I do not think of them as bad people. The logs and players in question would make anyone go WTF. Granted now it does not happen since we found out we could hide logs. Just the way I see it if it happens to FC members that have difficulties like ours, there might be others that have gone through similar situations, that simply could have been avoided if they did not have any logs. My position is based on emotion, and yeah it is naive, but as I have said before even if it only prevents 1 report a year for me personally that is worth the time and expense.
Though I am not asking to get rid of anything, what I am asking for is akin to extending the time allotted to those crossing the street, or adding more crosswalks. This change would inconvenience drivers, but would not have a major impact on their daily commute.
No one is going to change their mind on this topic, and have already admitted that position is naive, and that issues such as this probably only equates to 1% of the harassment reports, but that 1% to me is worth it, may not be worth it to you but for me if a change has the potential to prevent even 1% of harassment I say go for it.
Though leaving out the potential harassment, let me ask you this how is it reasonable to expect players that buy FFXIV and wish to not be part of third party feature especially one not provided nor supported by SE to go to a third party site, register and link accounts, claim characters just to keep their logs hidden? Let us leave the any issue of harassment out of this, how is that reasonable expectation? -
11-28-2017, 06:08 AMKaldeaSahalineSo if we remove cars, no matter how inconvenient, it will reduce automobile related accidents. I am assuming you stand for this as well. We cannot have a single car accident. Me must shelter the people from this risk. I am assuming you do not own a car so you don't risk killing anyone and walk everywhere correct?Quote:
Originally Posted by Awha
We should get rid of the internet because people get bullied sometimes. Why are you using the internet if its something that breeds bullies?
Where do you draw the line? I get what you're saying, but your methods are so extreme and short-sighted you're doing more harm than good shutting yourself down and not being open to a change of opinion.
I'm not 100% sure I follow this. You're saying you have players in your FC who are not skilled. You are running them through content as an FC (nothing wrong with this). However sometimes you are short people to help so you try pugging the remainders. You do not disclose that you are carrying x people who have no business being in said content and the pugs you recruited are questioning why these people are here when they continually fail or get carried.Quote:
Originally Posted by Awha
Am I understanding this correctly? If so - you see no issue with this? Specific examples would go a long way here to giving me context to your post. What content, how many players, what skill level, etc.
How reasonable is it that I search every single profile of every person in the world if they accidentally captured me in a photo? Not very reasonable.Quote:
Originally Posted by Awha
How is it reasonable for me to have a stake in an small town in Australia's gov't matters when I live in a NJ suburb? Not very reasonable.
This all goes back to my statement about subsets. If you don't ever do anything but roulette, or triple triad, who the hell cares what your logs say?
Do you think I care what an ex who moved to singapore says about me in another language to some dude she's banging?
Not in the least.
That's my point though. You asked a silly question. It's not reasonable if it doesn't affect them.