SAMURAI SHOWDOWN

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Originally Posted by Ciri_Wolf

Exactly. FF's strengths have always been in it's diversity. The fact that people can only see tanks in fending gear is either a narrow viewpoint of the playerbase, or a narrow viewpoint of the development team.

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Don't get me wrong, it would be interesting to add new armor sets for new jobs, but I'll stick by saying it would be an inconvenience for me because it would and that's just the truth, I like playing every tank possible (Again, this goes for a lot of tanks too) we would get over this with time. Although I still very much doubt SE will do this, as people believe SE are lazy, I believe they wouldn't do it because of people who play all the tank jobs wanting to gear them equally. The foundation has already been set though, like I said, but maybe we'll see some tanks use the current gears within the game besides Fending.

Although this goes to another point, they would have to have some crazy passives/toolkit if they wanted to tank in gear besides Fending and maybe a straight up change in the raid dmg to tank formula. Fending gear is a big chunk of mitigation alone, naturally. Its not a simple change of "add a new armor set/use a pre-existing armor set that isn't fending" That is where it gets slightly complicated. I'm willing to get impressed by SE though if you guys believe it.

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Originally Posted by Katana190

Stuff

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In all fairness, this is an MMO. It's all just numbers. You could easily tweak a character's numbers so that their natural defense is enough to tank without fending gear. Literally the only thing tank stance does is give you damage reduction and aggro. Tanks are only tanky because of this and their vitality. Their gear has almost very little effect on their actual ability to take damage. Take Grit off a DRK and watch them drop just as fast as any healer in the game that stands in AOE.

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

-Itemization, how are they going to handle gear? You want them to stick to fending gear when coding in a new set is laughably easy. All you are doing is enabling them to be lazy and take the path of least resistance.

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Huh, I wasn't aware you were part of their development team as a coder, with intricate knowledge of their gear coding to be able to even comment on the simplicity of the action. Silly me!

Sarcasm aside, you can't really comment on the difficulty of something like that. Regardless if you want to consider it lazy development, or just realistically using your resources it doesn't change the fact that the chances are very high the next tank job (if there is a next tank job) it will continue to use Fending armor. Of the two tanks proposed (RMD or SAM) Samurai is the one with the most history of wearing heavy armor and is thus the more likely option. It also has plenty of other common features with the other tanks which while not providing more diversity offers up an easier time balancing which again is the more likely option they will take.

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

-Casting, they cannot stand still and cast, tanks must be mobile, especially for content like PvP Instant cast spells are already a thing and adding a stance that prevents interruption could also be a thing.

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These things have been discussed before and ultimately with these solutions, how would this job be any different then PLD and DRK? They have instant cast (And some cast time) spells. DRK manages MP as a prominent mechanic. You would have a melee attacking job with instant cast magic spells, which just isn't that much different than what we've already got.

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

-Iconic jobs that fit the idea of tanking that are also widely requested/popular Then why do people clamor for SAM to be a DPS?

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Because people are selfish and want the role that they play most. More players play DPS jobs = more people ask for it to be a DPS. Doesn't change that adding tank roles and healing roles are far more important to the health of this game then a constant stream of DPS jobs.

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

-How this concept is more popular (And thus a safer bet) than a requested job (SAM) that is brought up every week. Red Mage is also a highly requested job. So your point is what?

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My point is between these 2 very requested jobs, one of them fits as a tanking role far more easily than the other. Easier = more likely to happen when time and money are factored into the equation.

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

-How is this job going to be balanced? With wild concepts for abilities comes exponentially more difficulty when balancing The dev team is responsible for their jaded, archaic and pedantic balance.

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They're also responsible for putting out buckets of content every 3 months. Call them lazy all you want but there isn't another MMO on the market that pushes content like they do.

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

You won't answer that because you don't have an answer to it.

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

So you want them to try but also want them to not try?

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I would love for them to have infinite freedom to make whatever their wildest imaginations can think of, but at the same time the reality situation is they are only human, they are a business, they have time and budget constraints. It's fun to think of all kinds of wild and crazy ideas but in the end things need to be grounded.

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Originally Posted by Katana190

Don't get me wrong, it would be interesting to add new armor sets for new jobs, but I'll stick by saying it would be an inconvenience for me because it would and that's just the truth, I like playing every tank possible (Again, this goes for a lot of tanks too) we would get over this with time. Although I still very much doubt SE will do this, as people believe SE are lazy, I believe they wouldn't do it because of people who play all the tank jobs wanting to gear them equally. The foundation has already been set though, like I said, but maybe we'll see some tanks use the current gears within the game besides Fending.

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Thank you for being someone else who realizes these things. The fact tanks share gear is very likely a design choice. It provides benefits like giving tank players (Who they want to remain interested and playing their game)the possibility to gear the 3 jobs simultaneaously. This allows them the flexibility to change which tank they play on the fly. Bored of WAR? Play PLD for a little bit without having to spend months re-gearing it.

By adding a tank that steps away from this benefit you create issues where tank players must decide which tanks they gear. Do they go for the 3-in-1 combo of fending gear? Or do they go with the new tank only? Of course, the new tank could share gear with a DPS, then you have people gearing a DPS and a Tank at the same time. That's certainly a perk, as well as incentive for DPS to try out said tank, but then it doesn't offer much of a gateway towards the other 3 tanks which ideally you want people to try and play all the tanks.

In the end it's up to SE. Take the easier path and keep their tanks in-line with each other with gearing and other common traits, or try and change things up which creates a bit more work on their part.

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Originally Posted by Shippuu

Huh, I wasn't aware you were part of their development team as a coder, with intricate knowledge of their gear coding to be able to even comment on the simplicity of the action. Silly me!

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It does not take intricate knowledge of gear coding to be able to use a database/update a json file/other data storage mechanism.

I hate it when people use these belittling arguments of 'you do not work for them you know nothing'.

I mean, common code practices and anyone with a shred of knowledge about data storage could probably figure out how to add an item if given an opportunity to. Diadem randomizes gear stats, so there is probably a way in the code to add these things on the fly.

The hardest part would be modeling an item/localization. But if they reuse the same item model then it just becomes entering stats into whatever data storage mechanism they use.

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Originally Posted by Titor

It does not take intricate knowledge of gear coding to be able to use a database/update a json file/other data storage mechanism.

I mean, common code practices and anyone with a shred of knowledge about data storage could probably figure out how to add an item if given an opportunity to. Diadem randomizes gear stats, so there is probably a way in the code to add these things on the fly.

The hardest part would be modeling an item/localization. But if they reuse the same item model then it just becomes entering stats into whatever data storage mechanism they use.

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Regardless, unless you know exactly how they go about it than any comments on it are just speculation. You can't throw around statements like you know how it works when you don't. You don't know if the person involved in managing those databases doesn't have other important jobs/duties. A simple task can still take a long time when it's dealing with a lot of items.

Shippu do you know exactly how their game code works? If not then shut it. This works both ways. If they can afford to create a scouting set exclusively for Rogue/Ninja are you saying they can't for another class...that it's limited to exclusive sets for DPS(namely Dragoon being the biggest offender?)...that Healers and Tanks alike have homogenized(oooh the big H word) gear outside of AF gear? What next blame PS3 not having enough memory or RAM to support it?

Furthermore let's play with the idea that RDM could empower their weapons to deal unaspected magic damage and get benefit from Foe's. Imagine a tank being melee but inflicting primarily magic damage...buffing and debuffing ally and enemy with magic abilities or inflicting Magic Vulnerability up. Now in the grand scheme of things I'll ask the inverse of what you asked me. As a DPS or as a Tank what does Samurai hope to offer? Especially knowing that Physical Melee is probably going to be what it does and if Parry and Counters is a likely thing, DRK already has Parry covered. Slashing/Piercing/Blunt damage already exist and SAM will likely be Slashing just like NIN and all 3 Tanks. And if your answer is "whatever the devs throw at us" it doesn't offer an avenue for any interesting discussion. Generally it just degenerates into I prefer this job because reasons over yours because even more reasons.

And I get people are selfish. I mean it isn't like you have a vendetta to push for Samurai much like I want to push for Red Mage.

I would rather have a unique concept and playstyle over what fits the role in the trinity "easier".

And the buckets of content of what I've seen amount to a mere 3/4 ounce cup of water with a failure that is Diadem, 2-4 dungeons with very little if any mechanics and raids that are either burn mobs/bosses or play jumprope scripted trial fights entirely reliant on positioning half the time. And hey I understand they are working with a budget and I believe a meager one at that but to call it "buckets" of content is a pretty bold claim.

i don't care if samurai is a healer, dps, or a tank as long as we get it! xD

balancing wise SE will figure it out, and unique wise it will be bland and boring, but i know i will love it just like every other job in the game.

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Originally Posted by Ciri_Wolf

In all fairness, this is an MMO.It's all just numbers. You could easily tweak a character's numbers so that their natural defense is enough to tank without fending gear. Literally the only thing tank stance does is give you damage reduction and aggro. Tanks are only tanky because of this and their vitality. Their gear has almost very little effect on their actual ability to take damage. Take Grit off a DRK and watch them drop just as fast as any healer in the game that stands in AOE.

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This is an excellent point and bears repeating to anyone that claims a class "can't be a tank because they don't wear heavy armor."

I'm also going to repeat my point from earlier that people keep ignoring because it bears repeating as well:

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Originally Posted by Khalithar

Sam was originally intended to be the tank job for HW right? The way I interpret that, is that they were already working on and designing samurai tank but at some stage in it's development they stopped and said "let's do dark knight instead." I really don't think that means the samurai tank idea as a whole got scrapped, merely pushed back. I strongly believe they are going to finish it from whatever stage of development it was at and give us the version of the tank they envisioned for HW originally before drk.

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http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Mystic_Knight

youre literally describing this arent you?

i really feel like you want to see this, not a red mage

They also wore...the same armor type as knights and used shields in FF5

And I agree, this kind of magic damage tank would be great, and whats even better is its a classic job with the whole spell blade gimmick wrapped into it already

Call me selfish, but i dont want to see red mage take this job away from our pool of future jobs, It also came with things like stun sword, silence sword, sleep sword, drain sword, aspir sword, and many cool utilities that would be nice for a tank to have.

It really wasnt all that special but i always loved having this one in my party, and would hate to not see it given a chance in this game. When 2.0 came out and i saw warriors lifetaps(yeah bear with me the nightmare will end in a couple sentences) I was like "well there goes DRK we already have a lifetapping tank" Then they reworked WAR, but really...
thats pretty much my selfish argument and reasoning when i see people wanting rdm to be a mystic knight like tank, cause to me there goes mystic knight(and classic red mage to a degree)