What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

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01-21-2022, 02:54 AM
TaleraRistain

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lauront

Yes, and from Elpis we know any creation qualifying as living does, so anything from animals to monsters and maybe certain familiars. Arcane entities on the other hand generally do not. Regarding familiars, which the MC presents themselves as but which they remark upon as being exceptional in nature in the sidequests, there is a clear inference that actual familiars were not as sapient, but at least harboured some degree of this in the sense that an AI might to us. So where does this new life fall on that spectrum, from animal to full blown ancient? We've no idea at this point. You say it's new people. The truth is, we don't know what the star was sticking souls into at that point after the planet was devastated and then restored, and there is a whole spectrum of possibilities ranging from animals to monsters to beings closer to Meteion (implied to have gained a soul although Hermes wouldn't let her be examined) to beings nearer to the sundered, to ancients, and without knowing the precise answer as to which of these it is, the degree to which it was "people" in their eyes is debatable. As Rulakir notes, it is very ambiguous.

The "new life" might be ambiguous. What isn't ambiguous was that is was significant enough that the populace was divided on whether they could sacrifice it or not. So while they had the means to retrieve the souls, there was weight on the other side about just what it was costing. Otherwise, why would the populace be split? Why would members argue that the star should be left in the hands of this new life if it was not significant enough to mean just as much as the Ancients did?
01-21-2022, 03:05 AM
Lauront

Quote:

Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

The "new life" might be ambiguous. What isn't ambiguous was that is was significant enough that the populace was divided on whether they could sacrifice it or not. So while they had the means to retrieve the souls, there was weight on the other side about just what it was costing. Otherwise, why would the populace be split? Why would members argue that the star should be left in the hands of this new life if it was not significant enough to mean just as much as the Ancients did?

It's not merely down to what those entities were. A possible consideration would be how those ancients inside Zodiark might have felt about being plucked out of him, which some might've viewed as dishonouring their sacrifice. You will recall that in the original source on the matter, Ere our Curtain Falls, it mentions that the dissidents formed what is described as "no small number". We know Elidibus returns at this point to mediate the dispute. By the time we see Anamnesis Anyder's scene, that support has reduced to just a few. So if I had to speculate? Elidibus conveyed the agony of those ancients caught inside the primal and unable to make a return to the star and swayed the decision on the matter. Because sapient life exists on a spectrum in the setting, and because even the killing of creations was a painful decision for some ancients, it is not possible to simply conclude they were ancients. There are also further practical questions that'd arise, such as how would we achieve this etc.? Too many unknowns, which Elidibus may have helped reduce in number through his firsthand experience of having been the primal's heart.

Once more: I am not saying the route of the sacrifices was the right option, because we lack too many specifics on it, including how they might've reframed this decision if Venat had been upfront about all the information she had. What I am pushing back against are some very frequent assumptions I've seen made on the topic, which don't really follow from the textual material available.
01-21-2022, 03:06 AM
KizuyaKatogami

Quote:

Originally Posted by Garet

The Vidoe of the scene I posted is basically a summary of the mood of the final days. While the Final Days was indeed forestalled the mood and despair continued which led to people sacrificing themselves to zodiark and if you go back to the CS from 2.0 till present theme of the struggle between hydaelyn and zodiark was that the ascian was planning to sacrifice more and more to empower zodiark in the hope of permanently stopping the final days to which hydaelyn's faction opposed since what is the point of stopping the final days if there will be none left in the end at the rate it is going.

You said it yourself they really did not know that their plan will fail because only Venat knew that the threat still exist hence she acted based on that knowledge knowing that sacrificing more to Zodiark will not end the final days and their plan will fail because zodiark cannot end the final days. The Ascians' plan for zodiark rests on the assumption that it can permanently stop the finals days then restore the lives sacrificed to it. But as we all know now it was never going to happen because zodiark can only forestall and not stop the final days. Especially as the Ascians themselves easily gives in to "despair" and offer themselves up to zodiark in the belief it can restore everything back to the way it was, which Again was not happening.

Even Emet Sech without yet reclaiming his memories knew these deep inside hence he indirectly helped us back in shadowbringer. He was just too duty bound to his position of Emet Sech to do anything else but follow the plan they started in the past despite knowing these.

Idk how else to explain this to you. You’re acting like they were throwing themselves at Zodiark constantly when this has literally been debunked since base ShB. They did 3 set of sacrifices total. That’s it. Two of those were to save the star. I don’t know how to uncomplicate it anymore than that. They weren’t doing constant sacrifices lol. If Venat had told them the truth beforehand, they might not have even needed to summon Zodiark or sacrifice anyone, so i’m a bit confused on your logic here. Also, how did they give in to despair by summoning Zodiark? He was a solution. One that even we relied upon for thousands upon thousands of years. By that logic we gave into despair by summoning primals to fuel the ship, or ironworks gave in to despair by being willing to sacrifice an entire timeline aka billions of lives. Based on the scene in Anamnesis, their argument wasn’t so much for the sacrifices period as it was the sacrifices wouldn’t stop the final days.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

The "new life" might be ambiguous. What isn't ambiguous was that is was significant enough that the populace was divided on whether they could sacrifice it or not. So while they had the means to retrieve the souls, there was weight on the other side about just what it was costing. Otherwise, why would the populace be split? Why would members argue that the star should be left in the hands of this new life if it was not significant enough to mean just as much as the Ancients did?

Correct me if im wrong, because i dont exactly remember the circumstances, but from the short stories we know even the tempered convocation was split on the idea of the 3rd set of sacrifices at first, however all of this changed when Elidibus stepped out of Zodiark. This seems to imply that most people changed their stance when they saw that it actually was possible for a soul to go into Zodiark and then to come out seemingly unscathed. It seems after that point it was only Venat and her what, 12 or so followers that objected? And that wasnt even mainly due to the sacrifices os much as it was Zodiark wasnt a permanent solution. Which again, all ties back into her not telling them anything before the final days hit and helping to prevent it or combat it entirely.
01-21-2022, 03:12 AM
EaraGrace

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lauront

I am discounting it because it has a huge problem in it: 25% of the ancients remained at the time and the plan then was to sacrifice the new life, not that 25% or so. That 25% was sundered in the process. So even if I were to be charitable here and assume that their plan was to redirect all that soul aether to the sacrificed inside Zodiark, it'd imply a change in plan in and of itself. If not? Then we can no longer rely on that source to inform the what of what was being sacrificed. All we know is that 1) it included entities bearing souls (animals at a minimum) and 2) which Venat's faction thought may suffice to inherit the star (could range anywhere from a familiar of reasonable intelligence to ancients.)

See I think we’re actually fairly close to an understanding. I just think the criterion you laid out makes the third sacrifice an abhorrent act of selfishness born out of an attempt to hide from pain, a sign both of the Ancients inability to see life beyond their own as being deserving of true moral consideration and of their refusal to accept the inevitable of suffering in the world. The former is a moral failing, the second would lead to extinction.

Quote:

Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

If Venat had told them the truth beforehand, they might not have even needed to summon Zodiark or sacrifice anyone, so i’m a bit confused on your logic here. Also, how did they give in to despair by summoning Zodiark? He was a solution. One that even we relied upon for thousands upon thousands of years. By that logic we gave into despair by summoning primals to fuel the ship, or ironworks gave in to despair by being willing to sacrifice an entire timeline aka billions of lives.

The first sentence is literally refuted by an entire voiced cutscene, the second the following voiced cutscene after it. If you want to have those answers then you may wish to go back and watch the cutscenes at the end of our time in Elpis again.
01-21-2022, 03:23 AM
KizuyaKatogami

Quote:

Originally Posted by EaraGrace

The first sentence is literally refuted by an entire voiced cutscene, the second the following voiced cutscene after it. If you want to have those answers then you may wish to go back and watch the cutscenes at the end of our time in Elpis again.

Much as is most of the peoples arguments in here and yet theres still people trying to advocate for specific arguments that are refuted time and time again by in game text. But please, link the dialogue? I need a bit of a refresher. They had no other options at the time. It wasnt giving into despair so much as giving in to wanting to save their people and their planet. Also doesnt change the fact that it was a solution that we ourselves relied upon and would be dead without it. Considering all of Venat's plan hinged on him, im curious how its just purely an act of despair and not simply, an act of wanting to save their star. Especially since we know as well, Zodiark was already a concept before the final days.
01-21-2022, 03:26 AM
Garet

Quote:

Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Idk how else to explain this to you. You’re acting like they were throwing themselves at Zodiark constantly when this has literally been debunked since base ShB. They did 3 set of sacrifices total. That’s it. Two of those were to save the star. I don’t know how to uncomplicate it anymore than that. They weren’t doing constant sacrifices lol. If Venat had told them the truth beforehand, they might not have even needed to summon Zodiark or sacrifice anyone, so i’m a bit confused on your logic here. Also, how did they give in to despair by summoning Zodiark? He was a solution. One that even we relied upon for thousands upon thousands of years. By that logic we gave into despair by summoning primals to fuel the ship, or ironworks gave in to despair by being willing to sacrifice an entire timeline aka billions of lives. Based on the scene in Anamnesis, their argument wasn’t so much for the sacrifices period as it was the sacrifices wouldn’t stop the final days.

Rewatch this since it is basically a summary of what led to venat's final decision
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qlA0lGrSRqM

If you need further and more detailed accounts of what this scene represented. Rewatch all cutscenes from 2.0 till present that involved ascians

Quote:

Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

If Venat had told them the truth beforehand, they might not have even needed to summon Zodiark or sacrifice anyone.

That is a very big IF lol.
01-21-2022, 03:28 AM
Lauront

Quote:

Originally Posted by EaraGrace

See I think we’re actually fairly close to an understanding. I just think the criterion you laid out makes the third sacrifice an abhorrent act of selfishness born out of an attempt to hide from pain, a sign both of the Ancients inability to see life beyond their own as being deserving of true moral consideration and of their refusal to accept the inevitable of suffering in the world. The former is a moral failing, the second would lead to extinction.

This is a species here that faced near total devastation of their planet and their own people. If we're talking about the exchange of souls that went into some entities born of their creation magicks, it is plainly obvious to me why they'd consider the option and exercise a preference for their own people and perform an exchange of the souls held in limbo in Zodiark, particularly since these familiars were rather more childlike entities compared to them and in need of a lot of handholding if they were to inherit the star. The sundered would kill for far less, after all; my own character, if a reaper, powers up their voidsent battery by letting it devour the souls of those who get in their way. As a SMN? I routinely have my egi (arcane construct) get in the way of harm. Nevermind things like how some relics are formed, what goes on in fates etc. So these delicate sensibilities when it comes to the ancients doing it baffle me a bit. If it's ancients for ancients? Then I'd agree that such a course would be contentious but unless and until the devs take the time to clarify it, I maintain it is shrouded in ambiguity.

In any case, had a certain someone explained the practical concerns she had, then it all could've been avoided. Even were I to consider it to be a morally flawed path they were going down, I'd still not consider it adequate to excuse the sundering. For that, we have contrived time travel mechanics to take the brunt of any criticism, of course... all in all a very unsatisfactory mechanism to me that left many of these issues unanswered, obscured (as can be seen from this very thread and the confusion of some people on the topic of the stylised scene vs the more detailed elaborations from SHB materials) and also left me with a very dim view of Venat.
01-21-2022, 03:33 AM
EaraGrace

Quote:

Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Much as is most of the peoples arguments in here and yet theres still people trying to advocate for specific arguments that are refuted time and time again by in game text. But please, link the dialogue? I need a bit of a refresher. They had no other options at the time. It wasnt giving into despair so much as giving in to wanting to save their people and their planet. Also doesnt change the fact that it was a solution that we ourselves relied upon and would be dead without it. Considering all of Venat's plan hinged on him, im curious how its just purely an act of despair and not simply, an act of wanting to save their star. Especially since we know as well, Zodiark was already a concept before the final days.

This series of cutscenes is what you’re looking for.

https://youtu.be/C8ngZGj-f0o

And the issue is not with Zodiarks existence, but how the Ancients were growing to rely and venerate him as a means to protect and sustain their “paradise.” There is a very large gap between finding a solution to a calamity, and finding a solution to suffering or fear itself. One is a realistic goal that won’t compromise one’s ability to find a way forward, the other is a hollow goal that will inevitably fail and leave them with nothing. When Meteion describes the civilization she found that eschewed all suffering and instead sought only joy, the end result was they lost the will to love as their lives held no meaning to them. When she described a society that worshipped a benevolent deity, what did she say ended up happening? The deity killed them, and then itself.

To summarize, his creation was not an act of despair, but his death or failure would leave them with nothing but despair.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lauront

This is a species here that faced near total devastation of their planet and their own people. If we're talking about the exchange of souls that went into some entities born of their creation magicks, it is plainly obvious to me why they'd consider the option and exercise a preference for their own people and perform an exchange of the souls held in limbo in Zodiark, particularly since these familiars were rather more childlike entities compared to them and in need of a lot of handholding if they were to inherit the star. If it's ancients for ancients? Then I'd agree that such a course would be contentious but unless and until the devs take the time to clarify it, I maintain it is shrouded in ambiguity.

See here’s where we get spicy. The moral consideration of a life should not, cannot, be dependent solely on whether it is as intelligent as the being it has come in contact with. An alien race of super geniuses is not allowed morally to slaughter and enslave humans just because they were less intelligent. And placing a preference for your own people over the lives and rights of others is a dark road.
01-21-2022, 03:34 AM
TaleraRistain

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nilroreo

At the end of Shadowbringers, G'raha, when asked by Y'shtola why he still lives despite us having averted the 8UC describes the situation as an "unexpected development." G'raha and his collaborators had every intention to carry out a plan they expected would result in the complete erasure of all lives on etherys, as well as the remaining shards that were in no way made privy to any of their plans, just because they couldn't live a reality in which the WoL was dead. The lives of an entire existence, not just one planet, but all of existence across an entire universe, snuffed out just to save one person. Please explain to me how the ancients planning to sacrifice just a singular planets worth of life is deemed the single most deplorable act across the games history.

This is absolutely disingenuous and false. The First Rejoining and Black Rose decimated both Aldenard and Ilsabard. There were survivors, in a broken and bleak world. The stories of the WoL gave them hope. It wasn't just Ironworks deciding for everyone. It was the survivors coming together and working toward that goal. And they worked on it for 200 years. 200 years in which nothing improved enough in their reality to weigh against that risky venture. They were looking to the past, no arguments there. But what future could they look forward to if nothing changed in that long to make them think another path was possible? They knew their timeline might disappear. It was worth it for them if another timeline had a better future.
01-21-2022, 03:35 AM
OhNooo

Quote:

Originally Posted by DevonEllwood

All I've learned from this expansion is that it's not a good idea to look deeper into the story. Just look at it at the surface level and be done...I really hope Endwalker was just Yoshi P saying, screw it, just do whatever for the second half of the story and it's not what is to be expected onward. Yoshi P wanted people to get emotions from Endwalker. I felt frustrated and disappointed. I don't think that was what he was going for.

Yep I completely understand where you're coming from. After going through all the expansions again, I really do feel like Shadowbringers may have been the beginning of an end sort of. And what I mean by that is, they had taken the story to a deeper level and added all these layers of complexity that were so compelling, and it drew a lot of people in. But then when EW released, by the time I finished msq I was left scratching my head at how everything was resolved. It literally felt like they decided to go for just trying to get people to just FEEL things but there didn't feel like there was any real substance. It felt all very surface level and also fell apart for me when I looked deeper. By the time I watched another scion stand there with a determined look on their face giving a monologue about hope I had checked out already.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DevonEllwood

I don't feel more time would have helped, what they needed was a different direction. It just seemed liek they were too caught up in making twists and wowing people for the sake of it.

Maybe they had some other things planned but then were told they had to finish the expansion up way faster than they planned. But yes I also felt like they were very caught up in trying to put as many twists and turns as they could just for shock value but then it would go nowhere (like the body swap scene). So then you're left with a lot of surface level "feels" but no real substance. At least in my opinion.

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