Yoshi-P: "If you want more engaging content, go play Ultimate"

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Originally Posted by Laphicet

People asked that about Summoner at some point, apparently, judging by the borefest that the class is at the current moment. Just spamming 1 and 2, not alternating, just changing which button you spam depending on what phase you're in with no thought given to anything.

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There is a guide to macro SMN to just one button if you really want the 1-1-1-1-1-1 dream.

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Originally Posted by Ixon

It's not like we need multiple builds per job when one character can swap and play 20 jobs ,sure it could be more interesting, but not really when the gigabrains figure out what the meta is and everyone just builds that. Yes, you need damage to kill a boss?(though I do agree the end-game healing could be required more) And of course the balance is geared towards the raid? Is an MMO not supposed to balance for it's end-game content? What do you want, balance based off PotD?

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I'm a former WHM main. There will always be a meta, that's not in question. Why is it that the idea of WHM ever, ever, ever, ever, ever coming within spitting distance of the meta without peals of laughter is so anathema to this game's design? I'm not mad about there being a meta, that would be tilting at windmills. To call the healer meta stagnant would be an understatement. WHM has sucked ass for literal years.

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

I have always refused to allow Square Enix to try this on me, and I'm not about to start.

"WHM being boring and weak and stupidly designed could actually be a good thing because then someday when you're not a window-licker you could either feel proud that you cleared content on a hamstrung underpowered crayon eater Fisher Price baby-tier job or graduate to a powerful, smoothly designed, non-clunky job that actually matters"

Or...or....ooooor.....maybe, WHM could actually be good at things and have an entertaining gameplay loop and not punish you for playing skillfully and perhaps in a drug-fueled pipe dream actually be competitive in its role, instead of being literally the only job in this game that people constantly, unironically rationalize its horrible insultingly easy design as a "good thing".

Better make Monk spend all of its time spamming 111111111111 because that's good design for newbies and it's healthy to have at least one job in a role arbitrarily suck because a skill ceiling is scary and they need a playpen where improvement is forbidden. Said nobody ever.

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Okay this actually made me laugh.

I can't really take a hardline position on this either way though, unfortunately. WHM is a very archetypal FF job, tending to be played by traditionalists and new players, and none of those things really facilitate a gimmicky playstyle. Maybe if it had leaned more into the earth/water conjuring we could have something interesting evolve like BLM's AF/UI without alienating too many WHM fans, although I would argue elementalist spells just don't resonate as well with the popular idea of WHMs as much as they do BLMs. In either case, I consider WHM, BLM, PLD to be "obligatory" jobs that really don't facilitate good/original design, and it's a minor miracle BLM ended up interesting at all.

So it doesn't surprise me that WHM sucks when it's easily the least conceptually deep job in FF canon and hasn't been a standalone job since FFV, needing to be propped up by more interesting job traits. And yeah that doesn't excuse XIV's job being inefficient and clunky...it could at least be streamlined like SMN. But also...I'm not sure what people were expecting? It hasn't been interesting to me in years, since we lost Stone/Aero and got some stupid glitter and flower spells?

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

I'm a former WHM main. There will always be a meta, that's not in question. Why is it that the idea of WHM ever, ever, ever, ever, ever coming within spitting distance of the meta without peals of laughter is so anathema to this game's design? I'm not mad about there being a meta, that would be tilting at windmills. To call the healer meta stagnant would be an understatement. WHM has sucked ass for literal years.

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I don't disagree that WHM is the healer that needs the most care from the dev team at the moment, just was pointing out we don't need different job builds because we can just play a different job. Correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't WHM meta near the beginning of ShB because it's damage was so high? I know it's still one of the best healers for TEA, where it beats out two of the tanks in DPS. Plus all DRK mains love a WHM main lol. Again, not saying it's good now, or was fun to play then, just saying that even after the introduction of AST it still finds it's place.

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Originally Posted by SeverianLyonesse

Okay this actually made me laugh.

I can't really take a hardline position on this either way though, unfortunately. WHM is a very archetypal FF job, tending to be played by traditionalists and new players, and none of those things really facilitate a gimmicky playstyle. Maybe if it had leaned more into the earth/water conjuring we could have something interesting evolve like BLM's AF/UI without alienating too many WHM fans, although I would argue elementalist spells just don't resonate as well with the popular idea of WHMs as much as they do BLMs. In either case, I consider WHM, BLM, PLD to be "obligatory" jobs that really don't facilitate good/original design, and it's a minor miracle BLM ended up interesting at all.

So it doesn't surprise me that WHM sucks when it's easily the least conceptually deep job in FF canon. And yeah that doesn't excuse XIV's job being inefficient and clunky...it could at least be streamlined like SMN. But also...I'm not sure what people were expecting? It hasn't been interesting to me in years, since we lost Stone/Aero and got some stupid glitter and flower spells?

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I've aimed my cannons at this take in the healer subforum more than once too. "WHM is boring and stupid. That's okay though, the statute of limitations on an insulting job lobotomy is two years. After that it's 'how the job is supposed to be, what do you expect?'".

I'd love it if my favorite job didn't suck and have terrible uninspired design. BLM is spared this fate not by some miracle, but because YoshiP mains it. That's it. It gets more attention and isn't allowed to fall onto the trash heap because it gets special attention.

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Originally Posted by Ixon

I don't disagree that WHM is the healer that needs the most care from the dev team at the moment, just was pointing out we don't need different job builds because we can just play a different job. Correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't WHM meta near the beginning of ShB because it's damage was so high? I know it's still one of the best healers for TEA, where it beats out two of the tanks in DPS. Plus all DRK mains love a WHM main lol. Again, not saying it's good now, or was fun to play then, just saying that even after the introduction of AST it still finds it's place.

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You'd better believe for the ten seconds WHM was meta the other two healers screamed their bloody heads off because WHM is "simpler" and "easier" and it being meta is "unfair".

I think there's a whole host of problems with the healer role, and all of it needs a core redesign to be engaging. But I was a WHM main from ARR through the beginning of SHB, and as many +1s as I tend to get for railing against healer design in general, I usually get the cold shoulder for my other take; that WHM is the obligatory garbage can-tier job, and remains that way year after year and expansion after expansion, and scratch the surface of the "awwwwwww they could bring your job up to snuff *someday*" platitudes, and you can tell the rest of the role isn't all that broken up about it. Especially if it means balancing the role out means they can't be undisputed God-tier good-at-everything forevermeta anymore, heavens no. But we don't care about being meta, that's just crazy talk. Unless YOU become meta for a week at the start of the expansion, then it's armageddon.

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Originally Posted by Skiros

ROFL

As if FF14 doesn't have one of the strictest job system among MMOs because there's only one build, only one objective (damage, even during progression), only one relevant piece of content where balance matters (raids).

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In WoW I PvP'd hardcore for years throughout Vanilla and early BC as a healing/support focused hybrid Shaman build. Once the focus switched to Arena, Resto Shaman was lacking compared to Druid and my EU to NA latency was the final nail in the coffin. My character was basically dead outside of dwelling on past glories by the Orgrimmar gate.

With FFXIV's job system, at least I have the option of switching to a more viable class where my latency wouldn't make things so unforgiving. With WoW I basically had to toss aside years of HKs, gear, titles and reputation if I wanted to be active again.

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

I've aimed my cannons at this take in the healer subforum more than once too. "WHM is boring and stupid. That's okay though, the statute of limitations on an insulting job lobotomy is two years. After that it's 'how the job is supposed to be, what do you expect?'".

I'd love it if my favorite job didn't suck and have terrible uninspired design. BLM is spared this fate not by some miracle, but because YoshiP mains it. That's it. It gets more attention and isn't allowed to fall onto the trash heap because it gets special attention.

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Miracle, YoshiP ... potato, popoto; BLM won the lottery either way. You're not wrong, and maybe the solution would be to have an actual WHM main on the dev staff as opposed to just ... whatever nonsense WHM is at this point.

I don't think I'm wrong in viewing it as past a point of no return, though. Losing its conjuring roots really diluted the job identity. Now all the clothing is sanctimonious and frilly and the spells are kitschy. It really just feels like "the girly job" as designed by men. And at this point the "who cares, you look cute" philosophy is just too ingrained in the job's design.

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Originally Posted by Ixon

Correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't WHM meta near the beginning of ShB because it's damage was so high? I know it's still one of the best healers for TEA, where it beats out two of the tanks in DPS. Plus all DRK mains love a WHM main lol. Again, not saying it's good now, or was fun to play then, just saying that even after the introduction of AST it still finds it's place.

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It was more down to SCH mains pretty much table flipping in disgust at what SE did to their gameplay loop whilst ASTs were left with chronic hand cramp from doing sleeve draw openers for a few hours of prog.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

It was more down to SCH mains pretty much table flipping in disgust at what SE did to their gameplay loop whilst ASTs were left with chronic hand cramp from doing sleeve draw openers for a few hours of prog.

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But it was also their damage, I remember the rumor going around that a PLD Clemency-ing was less of a potency loss than a WHM casting a heal.