What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

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Originally Posted by Nilroreo

When was it ever stated that the Zodiark plan required anything more than the 3 sacrifices we currently know about? Zodiark has existed for over 10K years sustaining himself solely on the prayers directed at him, and not once was it even suggested that his protection was waning overtime, atleast not as far as I can remember.

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They were planning to sacrifice more to zodiark before Venat's faction decided to create hydaelyn to counter and stop zodiark and his followers. Emet even said that the sacrifices would not be in vain because they are hoping Zodiark can bring back all the ascians that were sacrificed to it. That was why they wanted to create the rejoining, so that they can continue where they left off and power up zodiark to defeat the whatever the finals days was and bring back their people to life.

Edit: They actually showed the scene of Ascians, in their despair, sacrificing themselves to zodiark in the hope of averting the final days which finally made Venat sunder the world. I think they create that scene specifically to show one part of Venat's reason of sundering the world.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qlA0lGrSRqM

This is why Emet said to our character at the end that the "past they were looking for is not the future we are building towards to" Emet understood already that their way was not the best way to defeat the final days and for the future. But he is duty bound to do what he planned to do before as the holder of the title Emet Sech. But deep inside he knew we were the best chance against the final days hence even back in shadowbringers he helped us against Elidibus to "put his friend to rest" and put his trust on us.

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Originally Posted by Reinha

Did you skip Meteion's report? Every civilization that was powerful enough to change their world ended up killing each other, killing themselves or wishing to die.

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If Meteion is correct about everything, why not just let her do her thing? Maybe you're right. Maybe the Ancients would have been a "bad" civilization and kept sacrificing people to Zodiark until the planet was doomed.

Or...

Maybe they would have adapted to life with Zodiark in a weird, but potentially harmless way? ("This group of people will sacrifice themselves to Zodiark and delay their return to the star for 1000 years to relieve the last batch of souls and allow them to return, etc, etc.")

Maybe they would have figured out a way to retrieve their loved ones without having to sacrifice at all. ("Just a few more years powering up this huge crystal to sacrifice and Zodiark will be self-sustaining without souls!")

Maybe they would have eventually even solved the Meteion problem.

It's weird to me that in an expansion that lauds the idea of never giving up hope, that even the "situations of despair" those other societies had fallen to--that the Scions attempt to answer in their sacrifices--there still might have been a way for them to live on and find happiness, ONLY the Ancients are subject to this bizarre, "nope, chuck them in the trash, they were done, the moment you go into a tailspin your plane is doomed to crash so you might as well let go of the controls entirely" reaction. I would put forth even if the Ancients were about to make a horrible mistake, they still had the right to MAKE that mistake. FFXIV is a game that puts forth the idea that as long as you don't give up, you can atone for horrible things. I believe even the Ancients at their worst could have still had better days ahead of them, just like every other single person or society we see in the game, including those in the Dead Ends.

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Originally Posted by Reinha

Did you skip Meteion's report? Every civilization that was powerful enough to change their world ended up killing each other, killing themselves or wishing to die. The ancients were well on their way to that same fate. Celebrating death, putting advancement above lives, human sacrifice and growing new life only for the purpose of destroying it. Even if they had found a way to defeat Endsinger, it would have only taken a faction of people to decide they want to advance their paradise with more human sacrifice to Zodiark, an idea many of the ancients were ok with.

Now, we are no longer powerful enough to self destruct. We are too weak to wipe out half of humanity, too hungry and stressed to be bored of living and too dependent on each other to consider human life worthless.

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I do not think the Ascians were going the path the other planets did that made Meteion despair. Not yet anyway. Emet and Hydo said as much to Meterion when they argued with her. Both Emet and Hydo were still full of hope unlike Hermes who is easily depressed by his questions to life's purpose etc. This is the same hope that made emet help us against elidibus in Shadowbringer and finally in Endwalker along with hydo and their reclaimed memories.

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Originally Posted by Reinha

Did you skip Meteion's report? Every civilization that was powerful enough to change their world ended up killing each other, killing themselves or wishing to die. The ancients were well on their way to that same fate.

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Maybe, maybe not. ultimately, we'll never know as they were never granted the opportunity to try despite one of their own having crucial information that could've saved them. Arguing that other worlds have fallen to despair therefore the ancients would've aswell isn't exactly a convincing argument imo.

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Celebrating death

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Hmm, I personally saw this a cultural thing. None of the ancients are ever shown coercing their peers into take their own lives. If anything, it seemed they fully respected and acknowleged that there exists a cycle of death and rebirth that they can't readily participate in unless they themselves opt in to killing themselves once they feel the time is right for them and they can pass on with any regrets.

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putting advancement above lives

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Lol tell this to those who run FATE trains across Elpis for hours on end.

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human sacrifice and growing new life only for the purpose of destroying it.

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I agree that this is an awful thing. It's just unfortunate that the story occasionally comes across as a tad tone deaf in regard to how it weighs similar potential tragedies.

I find that ideas of hope and despair are fascinating because the two can be used interchangeably depending on how you personally choose to perceive the actions of others. To us, the Ascians wanting to preserve that which was lost even if it results in the lives of anyone they can't identify with are seen as acts of evil and we attribute these actions to feelings of despair. Whereas with G'raha and the ironworks, we attribute their goal of condemning an entire timeline to nonexistence in pursuit of just one timeline where Wol lives on to feelings of hope. I personally don't view either of these two scenarios as any more or less just than the other, but the game clearly thinks otherwise.

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Originally Posted by tokinokanatae

I would put forth even if the Ancients were about to make a horrible mistake, they still had the right to MAKE that mistake. FFXIV is a game that puts forth the idea that as long as you don't give up, you can atone for horrible things.

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Venat was an Ancient like the rest of them. When you have power like that, every decision affects the fate of others. It took only one depressed Ancient to almost destroy the entire universe. If a bunch of Ancients had the right to sacrifice a bunch of unborn, unwilling lives to Zodiark, Venat also had the right to do what she did.

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Originally Posted by Garet

They were planning to sacrifice more to zodiark before Venat's faction decided to create hydaelyn to counter and stop zodiark and his followers. Emet even said that the sacrifices would not be in vain because they are hoping Zodiark can bring back all the ascians that were sacrificed to it. That was why they wanted to create the rejoining, so that they can continue where they left off and power up zodiark to defeat the whatever the finals days was and bring back their people to life.

Edit: They actually showed the scene of Ascians, in their despair, sacrificing themselves to zodiark in the hope of averting the final days which finally made Venat sunder the world. I think they create that scene specifically to show one part of Venat's reason of sundering the world.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qlA0lGrSRqM

This is why Emet said to our character at the end that the "past they were looking for is not the future we are building towards to" Emet understood already that their way was not the best way to defeat the final days and for the future. But he is duty bound to do what he planned to do before as the holder of the title Emet Sech. But deep inside he knew we were the best chance against the final days hence even back in shadowbringers he helped us against Elidibus to "put his friend to rest" and put his trust on us.

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The thing is, for all they knew, the final days was averted. So you’re entire argument is Null. They had planned 3 total sacrifices, no more than that. The first was to stop the final days. The second was to restore life to the final days. These two are the ones that went through. The final and 3rd set of sacrifices was to sacrifice a portion of the new life to bring back the souls inside Zodiark. There is nothing literally nothing that implies there would be more than that. The only one who knew that the final days was still a threat was Venat and arguably some of her followers.

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Originally Posted by Reinha

Venat was an Ancient like the rest of them. When you have power like that, every decision affects the fate of others. It took only one depressed Ancient to almost destroy the entire universe. If a bunch of Ancients had the right to sacrifice a bunch of unborn, unwilling lives to Zodiark, Venat also had the right to do what she did.

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So what im getting from this is, you unironically think it was okay and that she had the right to commit mass genocide to her people, splitting them apart and then causing mass death in the long run, all because she decided not to face the problem head on and instead put all of it onto one person, gave up hope on her own people, and contradicted the very themes this expansion has been constantly shoving in our faces...It's an interesting take for sure.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

So what im getting from this is, ... It's an interesting take for sure.

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Try asking what I think next time, instead of projecting your viewpoints onto me and calling them mine.

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Originally Posted by Garet

They were planning to sacrifice more to zodiark before Venat's faction decided to create hydaelyn to counter and stop zodiark and his followers. Emet even said that the sacrifices would not be in vain because they are hoping Zodiark can bring back all the ascians that were sacrificed to it. That was why they wanted to create the rejoining, so that they can continue where they left off and power up zodiark to defeat the whatever the finals days was and bring back their people to life.

Edit: They actually showed the scene of Ascians, in their despair, sacrificing themselves to zodiark in the hope of averting the final days which finally made Venat sunder the world. I think they create that scene specifically to show one part of Venat's reason of sundering the world.

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That scene was just depicting the second set of sacrifices made to restore the world back from the hellhole it's become. The third and final set of sacrifices would've exchanged anyone or anything that wasn't an Amaurotine (i think) for all lives that were initially sacrificed the first 2 times.

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Emet understood already that their way was not the best way to defeat the final days and for the future.

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The final encounter against Emet in Shadowbringers was a battle of conviction. It wasn't about who was right or wrong, but about who was willing to go the extra mile to claim the world for themselves. We won that battle and Emet, with his final words, asked us to protect the star and to remember the part they played in its salvation. We never get to see what form the world wouldve taken had Emet gotten his way, or Venat hadn't been apprehensive and actually shared what she knew. All were left with in the end is Emet in his own words telling us the ascians were idiots and never would've succeeded. why? just cuz.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

The thing is, for all they knew, the final days was averted. So you’re entire argument is Null. They had planned 3 total sacrifices, no more than that. The first was to stop the final days. The second was to restore life to the final days. These two are the ones that went through. The final and 3rd set of sacrifices was to sacrifice a portion of the new life to bring back the souls inside Zodiark. There is nothing literally nothing that implies there would be more than that. The only one who knew that the final days was still a threat was Venat and arguably some of her followers.

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The Vidoe of the scene I posted is basically a summary of the mood of the final days. While the Final Days was indeed forestalled the mood and despair continued which led to people sacrificing themselves to zodiark and if you go back to the CS from 2.0 till present theme of the struggle between hydaelyn and zodiark was that the ascian was planning to sacrifice more and more to empower zodiark in the hope of permanently stopping the final days to which hydaelyn's faction opposed since what is the point of stopping the final days if there will be none left in the end at the rate it is going.

You said it yourself they really did not know that their plan will fail because only Venat knew that the threat still exist hence she acted based on that knowledge knowing that sacrificing more to Zodiark will not end the final days and their plan will fail because zodiark cannot end the final days. The Ascians' plan for zodiark rests on the assumption that it can permanently stop the finals days then restore the lives sacrificed to it. But as we all know now it was never going to happen because zodiark can only forestall and not stop the final days. Especially as the Ascians themselves easily gives in to "despair" and offer themselves up to zodiark in the belief it can restore everything back to the way it was, which Again was not happening.

Even Emet Sech without yet reclaiming his memories knew these deep inside hence he indirectly helped us back in shadowbringer. He was just too duty bound to his position of Emet Sech to do anything else but follow the plan they started in the past despite knowing these.

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Originally Posted by EaraGrace

I think it very compelling. Emet being willing to, and in fact planning on, sacrificing human rejoined souls says much about the lengths they were willing to go to to bring back those they lost. Likewise, you’re free to disregard it or insist that the plan was completely different in the past,

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I am discounting it because it has a huge problem in it: 25% of the ancients remained at the time and the plan then was to sacrifice the new life, not that 25% or so. That 25% was sundered in the process. So even if I were to be charitable here and assume that their plan was to redirect all that soul aether to the sacrificed inside Zodiark, it'd imply a change in plan in and of itself. If not? Then we can no longer rely on that source to inform the what of what was being sacrificed. All we know is that 1) it included entities bearing souls (animals at a minimum) and 2) which Venat's faction thought may suffice to inherit the star (could range anywhere from a familiar of reasonable intelligence to ancients.)

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but I think most would agree it suggest that more than small animals were going to be sacrificed in Amaurot.

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Sure, but it nonetheless leaves open quite a broad spectrum of possibilities...

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Originally Posted by linayar

Yes, but Venat's words suggest that the method was also wrong. If the method was irrelevant due to the nature of the new life, then it wouldn't have to be mentioned.

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Again, because she has an end-point in mind on where it would lead to. In Anamnesis Anyder in particular you can see that she grants that the Convocation means well and aims for the same as does her group, which is a prosperous future for their star. Of course in EW she's aware of what Meteion's report contained, so that's why she's stressing the value of suffering and avoiding sacrifice to reclaim life as it was.

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In that case, they wouldn't need a living sacrifice, merely a sufficient concentration of aether.

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At the end of the day, he's a primal. They function on aether. Souls are made up of aether - possibly a very big hit of it. Given how vague it all is we can but speculate... and again, let's say it specifically required souls, again the possibility here is that a high number of weaker ones could logically suffice to substitute out a smaller number of more potent ones. Part of why they even had to sacrifice their own, in the first place, is that the Final Days had starved them of all other possible sources of aether due to its rapid escalation.

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Originally Posted by Reinha

Venat was an Ancient like the rest of them. When you have power like that, every decision affects the fate of others. It took only one depressed Ancient to almost destroy the entire universe. If a bunch of Ancients had the right to sacrifice a bunch of unborn, unwilling lives to Zodiark, Venat also had the right to do what she did.

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Hmmm how does that follow? You've no real awareness of what these lives were. As I said, it's a broad spectrum of possibilities.

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Originally Posted by Garet

They were planning to sacrifice more to zodiark before Venat's faction decided to create hydaelyn to counter and stop zodiark and his followers. Emet even said that the sacrifices would not be in vain because they are hoping Zodiark can bring back all the ascians that were sacrificed to it. That was why they wanted to create the rejoining, so that they can continue where they left off and power up zodiark to defeat the whatever the finals days was and bring back their people to life.

Edit: They actually showed the scene of Ascians, in their despair, sacrificing themselves to zodiark in the hope of averting the final days which finally made Venat sunder the world. I think they create that scene specifically to show one part of Venat's reason of sundering the world.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qlA0lGrSRqM

This is why Emet said to our character at the end that the "past they were looking for is not the future we are building towards to" Emet understood already that their way was not the best way to defeat the final days and for the future. But he is duty bound to do what he planned to do before as the holder of the title Emet Sech. But deep inside he knew we were the best chance against the final days hence even back in shadowbringers he helped us against Elidibus to "put his friend to rest" and put his trust on us.

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Yes, that's why that poster is asking about more than the 3 - the third was the planned but never materialised stage. Also that scene isn't great, because it's stylised in nature. If you want to refer to the sources on this detailing the sum total of sacrifices and what each was for, see here.

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Originally Posted by DevonEllwood

What Venat did was just as terrible as Hermes, we just need one line of her stating it and we are all good. Just one line. No need to dwell on anything like "necessary evils" or anything to keep with the theme no , just skip it. Give us more stupid rabbits.

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She states it at least, by stating what she did was neither just nor kind, but what annoyed me more is the lack of any ability to rebuke her for it or at least give her the cold shoulder over it.