What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

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Originally Posted by linayar

I'm not asking you to convert anyone, but in trying to defend your opinion, you're showing why it does not make sense. Your opinion is basically based on a mischaracterization of our relationship with Venat.

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Our long-term relationship with her is based on a primal and wisps of her personality. Surely, her sacrifice is meaningful, but we come to find out she made the decision all of her own whim as a singular mortal.

I'll play devil's advocate with myself and admit she had a lot on her plate. If she still intends to let the future play out how it did (Assuming this isn't a time loop and she's newly meeting us for the first time), then how she communicates doing so is absolutely critical.

"I will do this all on my own" may come off as grateful and understanding for you, but it doesn't for myself, or for others from what it may seem. It shocked me, appalled me even. Her wording could've been put a hundred different ways in order to prevent anyone such as myself from taking action against her.

I generally call it politics but I'm sure there's a better term. What is said, when it's said, how it's said are all important factors for convincing someone to take or allow action. Her wording would've invoked me to take action against her.

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Originally Posted by Stachiko

Our long-term relationship with her is based on a primal and wisps of her personality. Surely, her sacrifice is meaningful, but we come to find out she made the decision all of her own whim as a singular mortal.

I'll play devil's advocate with myself and admit she had a lot on her plate. If she still intends to let the future play out how it did (Assuming this isn't a time loop and she's newly meeting us for the first time), then how she communicates doing so is absolutely critical.

"I will do this all on my own" may come off as grateful and understanding for you, but it doesn't for myself, or for others from what it may seem. It shocked me, appalled me even. Her wording could've been put a hundred different ways in order to prevent anyone such as myself from taking action against her.

I generally call it politics but I'm sure there's a better term. What is said, when it's said, how it's said are all important factors for convincing someone to take or allow action. Her wording would've invoked me to take action against her.

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Simply put- If we were an ancient... and we heard of Venat's plan (as well as the sacrifice of people for Zodiark)- undoubtedly we would try to stop her crying "there has to be another way" the entire time. So, yes she is a villian- we are just the result and back written into benefitting from her plan. I am sure if there was a rejoining and we were an ancient that had returned, we might think of the Ascians the same way.

-Oops it happened in the past, so we didn't have to see it is no excuse. Basically, we act just like tempered beings. We enforce and rationalize her will, ignore the massive damage she did and assume what she did is best for us. She manipulated all of the world and history to serve her purpose without anyone knowing why. Don't love it.

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Originally Posted by Reinha

Found more reasons to sacrifice lives to Zodiark until no one was left to enjoy the paradise he would restore. Another world to Meteion's report.

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Do you have evidence to support this claim? we never even get to see what would happen had the unsundered world continued to exist past its expiration date. Ultimately, the sudered world had something the ancients never had, Hydaelyn's support and the power of hindsight courtesy of our trip to Elpis, luxuries that were never granted to the ancients themselves. So, until the game itself confirms that the ancients would "sacrifice lives to Zodiark until no one was left to enjoy the paradise he would restore," I'll just throw this claim into the bin of baseless conjectures.

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Sundered people may be weak and face a lot of struggles but at least they cling to life.

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At the end of Shadowbringers, G'raha, when asked by Y'shtola why he still lives despite us having averted the 8UC describes the situation as an "unexpected development." G'raha and his collaborators had every intention to carry out a plan they expected would result in the complete erasure of all lives on etherys, as well as the remaining shards that were in no way made privy to any of their plans, just because they couldn't live a reality in which the WoL was dead. The lives of an entire existence, not just one planet, but all of existence across an entire universe, snuffed out just to save one person. Please explain to me how the ancients planning to sacrifice just a singular planets worth of life is deemed the single most deplorable act across the games history.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

All these people bashing the ancients for sacrificing etc. I’m really curious then on how you all feel with Venat’s backup plan being to sacrifice all of the other shards and only have the people on the source survive. So much for all of her “children” hm? Or how about we talk about ironworks, instead of moving forward, decided to mess with time and jeopardize billions of people just to being 1 person back to life. So much for the sundered moving forward and not being tied to the past. Oh but i’m sure this is just one of many examples of it being perfectly okay when the protagonists do it, but when the antagonists do it it’s wrong.

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Venat is not a god. Sure the ascians may seem godlike to normal eorzeans but they are still people that are just more advanced etc. The source was the priority because it is "The Source" wherein if it gets destroyed all the other reflections gets destroyed along with it. And if it is saved then all will be saved. In the event that the WoL do fail she wanted to save as many as she can from the source so that our people will not be extinct. If Venat is a god that has the power to save everyone then she would have the power to end meteion back when we first encountered her in elpis. Meteion would not have escaped Venat, Hydo and Emet.

Hydaelyn and Zodiark are just powerful primals as well that may seem like a god but really isn't. And they are certainly not all powerful cosmic beings that can create and destroy universes.

In the end, Venat's faith of what she has seen so far of our WoL will be able to defeat Meteion paid off which is better than sacrificing her entire people to zodiark who may keep meteion at bay for a few thousand more years but will inevitably get overwhelmed as well.

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Originally Posted by Garet

Venat is not a god. Sure the ascians may seem godlike to normal eorzeans but they are still people that are just more advanced etc. The source was the priority because it is "The Source" wherein if it gets destroyed all the other reflections gets destroyed along with it. And if it is saved then all will be saved. In the event that the WoL do fail she wanted to save as many as she can from the source so that our people will not be extinct. If Venat is a god that has the power to save everyone then she would have the power to end meteion back when we first encountered her in elpis. Meteion would not have escaped Venat, Hydo and Emet.

Hydaelyn and Zodiark are just powerful primals as well that may seem like a god but really isn't. And they are certainly not all powerful cosmic beings that can create and destroy universes.

In the end, Venat's faith of what she has seen so far of our WoL will be able to defeat Meteion paid off which is better than sacrificing her entire people to zodiark who may keep meteion at bay for a few thousand more years but will inevitably get overwhelmed as well.

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You’re assuming their only plan would be to keep feeding Zodiark. Again, i don’t know how many times i need to repeat myself. She isn’t a god no, but she had KNOWLEDGE of what was going to happen. She purposely kept this a SECRET.She only really confronted them AFTER the final days hit. I don’t know what’s so hard to understand. She did have the power to try and stop Meteion. She chose not to do it. She instead did the very thing the theme goes against and gave up hope on her own people. That’s the problem with all of this. We can argue night and day of oh well her telling them wouldn’t change a thing but we have so much proof they would have been able to do something. They even have a literal entire facility they could use to hone their dynamis.

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Originally Posted by Nilroreo

Do you have evidence to support this claim? we never even get to see what would happen had the unsundered world continued to exist past its expiration date. Ultimately, the sudered world had something the ancients never had, Hydaelyn's support and the power of hindsight courtesy of our trip to Elpis, luxuries that were never granted to the ancients themselves. So, until the game itself confirms that the ancients would "sacrifice lives to Zodiark until no one was left to enjoy the paradise he would restore," I'll just throw this claim into the bin of baseless conjectures.



At the end of Shadowbringers, G'raha, when asked by Y'shtola why he still lives despite us having averted the 8UC describes the situation as an "unexpected development." G'raha and his collaborators had every intention to carry out a plan they expected would result in the complete erasure of all lives on etherys, as well as the remaining shards that were in no way made privy to any of their plans, just because they couldn't live a reality in which the WoL was dead. The lives of an entire existence, not just one planet, but all of existence across an entire universe, snuffed out just to save one person. Please explain to me how the ancients planning to sacrifice just a singular planets worth of life is deemed the single most deplorable act across the games history.

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It was clearly implied had the other ascians not opposed the pro-zodiark faction, that all of their people will eventually be sacrificed to zodiark. Even until the end they really could not truly defeat what was ailing their planet. Zodiark created an aether like shield that temporarily shielded them and they wanted to sacrifice more and more in the hopes that zodiark can permanently stop what is causing the final days and maybe resurrect whoever was sacrificed to it after it defeated what was causing the finaly days. But the final days isn't a simple calamity as we later learned and sacrficing more to zodiark would have only extended his protection which will still eventually run out once there is no one left to sacrifice and the power of despair that Meteion eternally bring about will come and destroy everything.

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Originally Posted by Nilroreo

Do you have evidence to support this claim? we never even get to see what would happen had the unsundered world continued to exist past its expiration date. Ultimately, the sudered world had something the ancients never had, Hydaelyn's support and the power of hindsight courtesy of our trip to Elpis, luxuries that were never granted to the ancients themselves. So, until the game itself confirms that the ancients would "sacrifice lives to Zodiark until no one was left to enjoy the paradise he would restore," I'll just throw this claim into the bin of baseless conjectures.



At the end of Shadowbringers, G'raha, when asked by Y'shtola why he still lives despite us having averted the 8UC describes the situation as an "unexpected development." G'raha and his collaborators had every intention to carry out a plan they expected would result in the complete erasure of all lives on etherys, as well as the remaining shards that were in no way made privy to any of their plans, just because they couldn't live a reality in which the WoL was dead. The lives of an entire existence, not just one planet, but all of existence across an entire universe, snuffed out just to save one person. Please explain to me how the ancients planning to sacrifice just a singular planets worth of life is deemed the single most deplorable act across the games history.

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yes the iron works of the future where they sedn G'raha tot he frist dose change there future and the futures fo all the shards. aslo the people whom G'raha work witha re still alive safly keped out of tiem by Midgardxoum as explaned int he post shadowbrigners tail on the lordstone. also yes condeming the peoples fo the univers to death to save unt he Wol is a bad but with out live saved we are able to save not olnt the frist, the soures adn all the other reflections but the universe as whole as Hyldin said at the end of ARR "go forth and shine they light on all creation" yes trading billions fo lives for us was bad but give that we retrned life to the univerise most would be ok with a line for Superanatural coemt o midn dealign with autiant time. "bettter to never have been born then to be dead?" neathe zodark or Hyldian were eave or wrogn they went about there goals differnly even Emet says as much "we woudln'th ave carried mankidn this far" but he also says his idear were right.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

You’re assuming their only plan would be to keep feeding Zodiark. Again, i don’t know how many times i need to repeat myself. She isn’t a god no, but she had KNOWLEDGE of what was going to happen. She purposely kept this a SECRET.She only really confronted them AFTER the final days hit. I don’t know what’s so hard to understand. She did have the power to try and stop Meteion. She chose not to do it. She instead did the very thing the theme goes against and gave up hope on her own people. That’s the problem with all of this. We can argue night and day of oh well her telling them wouldn’t change a thing but we have so much proof they would have been able to do something. They even have a literal entire facility they could use to hone their dynamis.

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She gave out some explanation to our character on why she cannot change the past too much after we got out of the dungeon that mind wiped emet and the others. First was that reminding the other ascians will not only make Hermes remember everything and go against them again but also might change the course of history for the worse.

There is a reason why in a lot of stories that deal with time travel they always say not to mess with the past even with good intention because it can alter things for the worse. Flashpoint paradox of DC comics is a perfect example.

The other theory of time travel that shows lately try to apply is that changing the past will not alter the future but will instead create an alternate timeline (Marvel's Avengers Endgame). While the timeline one originally came from will remain intact.

Anyway. As I posted earlier. Venat's faith on our WoL paid off so definitely better than getting eaten to power up zodiark only to die to the final days evenutally. We even got to redeem Meteion and Hermes this way :)

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Originally Posted by Garet

It was clearly implied had the other ascians not opposed the pro-zodiark faction that all of their people will eventually be sacrificed to zodiark. Even until the end they really could not truly defeat what was ailing their planet. Zodiark created an aether like shield that temporarily shielded them and they wanted to sacrifice more and more in the hopes that zodiark can permanently stop what is causing the final days and maybe resurrect whoever was sacrificed to it. But the final days isn't a simple calamity as we later learned and sacrficing more to zodiark would have only extended his protection which will still eventually run out once there is no left to sacrifice and the power of despair that meteion eternally bring about will come and destroy everything.

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When was it ever stated that the Zodiark plan required anything more than the 3 sacrifices we currently know about? Zodiark has existed for over 10K years sustaining himself solely on the prayers directed at him, and not once was it even suggested that his protection was waning overtime, atleast not as far as I can remember.

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Originally Posted by Nilroreo

Do you have evidence to support this claim? we never even get to see what would happen had the unsundered world continued to exist past its expiration date.

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Did you skip Meteion's report? Every civilization that was powerful enough to change their world ended up killing each other, killing themselves or wishing to die. The ancients were well on their way to that same fate. Celebrating death, putting advancement above lives, human sacrifice and growing new life only for the purpose of destroying it. Even if they had found a way to defeat Endsinger, it would have only taken a faction of people to decide they want to advance their paradise with more human sacrifice to Zodiark, an idea many of the ancients were ok with.

Now, we are no longer powerful enough to self destruct. We are too weak to wipe out half of humanity, too hungry and stressed to be bored of living and too dependent on each other to consider human life worthless.