Final Fantasy XIV and a Culture of Enabling

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Originally Posted by Kaoru_Nagisa

SCH has to pay as much attention to the party bar as the rest of the healers, so I really don't know how you couldn't learn or remind yourself to pop a look to the left of your screen (or wherever your party menu is placed). And if the party menu is the issue, just... move it? Closer? To where you can see it in your periphery?? I mean you have to look at it to res people don't you?

Seriously, you already claim to be multitasking by paying attention to various other different parts of the screen - why is the most important thing for a healer to pay attention to somehow not possible? I am genuinely baffled.

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Uhm, the point with SCH is I don't have to level as SCH.

Anyways, it's not really just about paying attention, but also doing something about it. I play on controller, but I'm not good at moving across the party bar with it, so I switch to mouse when I'm targeting my party member, and that's the same way when I heal/res someone with RDM or SMN.

On tank, I mostly use macro for my abilities that target others, and mostly use it on tankbusters with the other tank.

In the end, I can probably heal a dungeon if I feel like it and actually want to practice and hopefully get better at it, but there's no reason to do it when there are solo alternatives, so I just don't.

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Originally Posted by linayar

Uhm, the point with SCH is I don't have to level as SCH.

Anyways, it's not really just about paying attention, but also doing something about it. I play on controller, but I'm not good at moving across the party bar with it, so I switch to mouse when I'm targeting my party member, and that's the same way when I heal/res someone with RDM or SMN.

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You really need to be clear when you keep saying "or SCH" - nowhere in your posts did it sound as if you meant you get your free leveling via SMN, only that somehow SCH was an easier healer despite it requiring the same thing you claim you weren't paying attention to/now claim it's simply inability to do anything with the party menu via controller.

Clarity goes a long way so people don't misunderstand. Though really, I raided with a WHM who managed controller party menu movement far more easily than I think I even manage my kb+m setup, so it's something that can be improved on.

Though I suppose this illustrates a few points brought up elsewhere in the thread, so. /shrug

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Originally Posted by Saefinn

I was able to infer this just fine because of the context. People will often use SMN to level SCH so they're talking about SCH as part of an alternative method of levelling, the only thing that makes SCH special in that respect is SMN.

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If there was context before the last page, I may have missed it. Because I saw no context other than randomly mentioning "or SCH" when referring to playing healers for titles. That is not enough for everyone to take that as "leveling SMN instead" when it isn't mentioned anywhere.

Clarity goes a long way.

Either way, their later admittance of it not being a problem of attention but of practice simply feeds into many points brought up elsewhere in the thread. And really, my point was less their side thing regarding not being able to manage a basic fundamental task of healing, but more the overall truth that this game's community in particular fosters a very coddling and toxic environment where people are willfully defending the sort of players who will actively drag the enjoyment, time, and effort of others down because they are selfish and do not understand their own responsibility in a team-based environment.

Most other games have toxic elitism, and XIV also has that in some circles. But I can tell you, the most toxic and rancid individuals I've met in this game have been people adhering to the casualist mindset of "screw you, I can do whatever I want because only I matter".

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Originally Posted by Kaoru_Nagisa

You really need to be clear when you keep saying "or SCH" - nowhere in your posts did it sound as if you meant you get your free leveling via SMN, only that somehow SCH was an easier healer despite it requiring the same thing you claim you weren't paying attention to/now claim it's simply inability to do anything with the party menu via controller.

Clarity goes a long way so people don't misunderstand. Though really, I raided with a WHM who managed controller party menu movement far more easily than I think I even manage my kb+m setup, so it's something that can be improved on.

Though I suppose this illustrates a few points brought up elsewhere in the thread, so. /shrug

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Maybe, though at the very least for me given the context of the posts it seemed fairly clear what they meant, regarding the whole SCH thing.

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Originally Posted by linayar

Ugh, one of the reasons why I hate being healer is I don't like paying attention to my party. I'm too focused on DPSing as a healer and then I forgot to heal, so I have to switch my focus to healing, then I see they're at max HP, so I start getting the itch to DPS again.

Then I just never touch healer again and focus on what I like to do. SCH FTW to complete role quest.

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This explains many things lol

As much is bemoaned about "elitism" it's far healthier for the game and community than "casualism" is these days.

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Originally Posted by Kaoru_Nagisa

Why in the world would you not bother even glancing at the party bar while healing?? Lmfao

Anyway yeah, XIV's playerbase nowadays is rancid when it comes to both participating in and enabling poor play across the board. I have never seen an MMO defend genuinely toxic players who do not want to learn, do not want to try, and are willfully and gleefully making things harder on everyone else in the party, more than I have in this game. I honestly don't know what to blame at this point, other than the NA/EU mindset of "only I matter, who cares if everyone around me is struggling or inconvenienced, only my fun and time matters".

It's gotten to the point I rarely queue for anything without a friend or two who I know actually play like they have a working braincell and are aware they are participating in team-based activities. I still very much enjoy the content the game is putting out, but the playerbase' attitude towards improvement and performing to the basic standards of their jobs makes doing the content less enjoyable. Kind of fear where we'll be in a couple years if there isn't some massive improvement in how people approach playing with others.

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This is my fear as well. It's only gotten worse the longer its been enabled. If something doesnt change its only going to get just absolutely unbearable. Thats why i wish SE would do something about it but unfortunately the people who enable this are the ones most vocal on the likes of reddit and twitter.

People's minds all work different and handle work loads differently. People also have varying levels of experience gaming. So yeah, sometimes that can make multitasking their heals harder. I'm a healer main, all this is second nature to me and I can multitask well. Not everybody can or for them it is harder and is something they have to learn and people all learn in different ways too, eg. I learn by by doing, videos and guides rarely stick.

People complain about a toxic defense of bad players. I am just against people who're crappy to each other and don't think "I deem them as a bad player" is a valid reason to be a butt, which extends to people of all ability. So if dude who struggles like hell has a terrible attitude, then I'll criticise not enable.

Now I know people will be like "we just want the absolute basic competency and people to not refuse", not a lot. Great, but you've got an OP saying over 50% of the people are bad.

So I don't think the standard set in this thread is as low as people say it is. Doesn't 50% seem ludicrously high for somebody who sets their standards at a basic level? I mean, I am pretty cynical about humanity, but not that much. But my goodness people are very doom and gloom and melodramatic about it.

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Originally Posted by Kaoru_Nagisa

You really need to be clear when you keep saying "or SCH" - nowhere in your posts did it sound as if you meant you get your free leveling via SMN, only that somehow SCH was an easier healer despite it requiring the same thing you claim you weren't paying attention to/now claim it's simply inability to do anything with the party menu via controller.
Clarity goes a long way so people don't misunderstand.

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I was able to infer this just fine because of the context. People will often use SMN to level SCH so they're talking about SCH as part of an alternative method of levelling, the only thing that makes SCH special in that respect is SMN.

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Originally Posted by Rinhi

because people have no counter argument to that and have to strawman and make up excuses for just this
absolutely no one in this thread was complaining about people making avoidable mistakes here and there - no, it was about people not knowing and refusing to learn how to play their classes

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Or maybe the reason no one is arguing it is because there's nothing to argue. It's all just blowing smoke same as the argument that just trying to help gets you reported and banned. Are there terrible players in DF? Absolutely, but they're not there in any where near the sort of numbers that a handful of players say they are. The tsunami sized all consuming waves of bads and leechers just don't exist outside of in the imagination of some players. If I told you there was a 5 armed blue alien in my kitchen that loves to make spaghetti but turns invisible when anyone but me looks at it would you debate me on it or would you just roll your eyes and walk away?

If all you are looking for is average players who basically understand their jobs, then I'd wager the vast majority of players already fit that bill. And, as has been gone over many, many times before, the game doesn't demand more than that in every day average casual content. Could/should it demand more? Sure. But it doesn't.

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Originally Posted by StriderShinryu

Or maybe the reason no one is arguing it is because there's nothing to argue. It's all just blowing smoke same as the argument that just trying to help gets you reported and banned. Are there terrible players in DF? Absolutely, but they're not there in any where near the sort of numbers that a handful of players say they are. The tsunami sized all consuming waves of bads and leechers just don't exist outside of in the imagination of some players. If I told you there was a 5 armed blue alien in my kitchen that loves to make spaghetti but turns invisible when anyone but me looks at it would you debate me on it or would you just roll your eyes and walk away?

If all you are looking for is average players who basically understand their jobs, then I'd wager the vast majority of players already fit that bill. And, as has been gone over many, many times before, the game doesn't demand more than that in every day average casual content. Could/should it demand more? Sure. But it doesn't.

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If they did understand their job at an average level I wouldn't have to make threads like this. However, they don't and thus I have to create threads.

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Originally Posted by StriderShinryu

Or maybe the reason no one is arguing it is because there's nothing to argue. It's all just blowing smoke same as the argument that just trying to help gets you reported and banned. Are there terrible players in DF? Absolutely, but they're not there in any where near the sort of numbers that a handful of players say they are. The tsunami sized all consuming waves of bads and leechers just don't exist outside of in the imagination of some players. If I told you there was a 5 armed blue alien in my kitchen that loves to make spaghetti but turns invisible when anyone but me looks at it would you debate me on it or would you just roll your eyes and walk away?

If all you are looking for is average players who basically understand their jobs, then I'd wager the vast majority of players already fit that bill. And, as has been gone over many, many times before, the game doesn't demand more than that in every day average casual content. Could/should it demand more? Sure. But it doesn't.

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if there werent that many cases, there wouldnt be a literal entire subreddit dedicated to the bad duty finder experiences. There wouldnt be as many threads about this issue as there are. So thats pretty faulty logic just right there. There's a difference between some imaginary monster that youre talking about(horrible analogy btw) and an actual apparent issue with the game that is troubling many players.