For me the answers to your question are all yes.Quote:
Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI
I have a question for you though, lets say we have 2 groups of players trying to clear a fight. The first group of players is a bunch of PC players with parsers. The second group of players is a bunch of Playstation players without parsers. Which group is better able to determine where the groups performance issues are?
Built-in Parsers
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11-04-2017, 05:02 AMDeaconMoore
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11-04-2017, 05:14 AMMoroMurasakiWe are now arguing about the size of the disadvantage we both have to deal with as PS4 players while you still can't or won't acknowledge that a disadvantage exists. I will respond this one last time, at this point you seem to understand exactly what I'm saying but you're just sticking to this narrative because you've dug your hole too deep.Quote:
Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI
Lets say we have 3 months to clear a piece of content before it starts taking nerfs. We have two midcore players, more or less identical, except one parses and one doesn't. Who clears first? Who gets that content on farm first? Who gains a more indepth understanding of the fight and it's mechanics first?
Doing things faster leaves you more time. More time to do those same things more or to do other things. More things generally means more rewards whether that's gear/tokens/tomestones/exp/whatever.
I am done going back and forth with you on this. I feel you're being deliberately obtuse and I don't understand why. I feel like anyone with the tiniest bit of common sense could and would understand this so whether it's your choice or not I won't bang my head against a wall any longer. I hope you apply logic to this some time soon and stop feeding ammo to the people arguing against your better interests. -
11-04-2017, 06:19 AMTamiaBlackRecently GW2, As soon as parsers went allowed officially people startet to get Toxic. More toxic then it was before :D Got kicked for example with just 10%-15% DPS below Meta, and the bosses are even doable with 25%-35% below Meta.Quote:
Originally Posted by DaulBan
Don't remember if it was oficially supported, but felt so, WoW, Raidgroups and people in dungeons got very toxic really fast. Classic was way more relaxed.
In Statics, Parsers are no issue, because you shgould find a static that meets your gamestyle. I would never join a Harcore Raid group. I'm just not good enough for it. But in the Midcore where I'm in we get our kills too. It just needs a bit longer. The problems start if people start flaming in Random Content. -
11-04-2017, 06:36 AMThirdChild_ZKI
It stands to reason the only people here arguing against my "better interests" are the ones who just unilaterally are saying no to parsers.
Now then, while you don't care to go back and forth on it (side note: same here), it's worth noting that - in a bubble - having a parser isn't going to help you learn a fight's mechanics faster (ACT callouts notwithstanding). It WILL help in identifying any issues with performance and I have not, nor will not dispute that. But I'd call it pretty hollow reasoning to claim someone's going to clear a fight first (from a mechanical standpoint) because they parse. If so, why do people die to things even with ACT callouts?
Yes, "people make mistakes". But people are also fully capable of learning HOW to clear a fight without callouts or a tool that helps measure performance. Again, how else would I or any "disadvantaged" console player have accomplished anything without all this time? Please note, again, this is NOT me saying "No parsers! Everything's fine! Console players can do anything!" I am very much saying we aren't inept and incapable of learning or playing without. That's it. That's really it right there. Not who learns faster, not who can clear quicker or more smoothly; my issues with the "disadvantage" begins and ends with the base idea of "can you do it?"
And we can. -
11-04-2017, 07:04 AMakaneakkiI need proof on that as a gw2 AND BnS player. Most people who can't even do the raids in these game doesn't only screw up dps or dodgin the mechanics but also are very bad at performing the mechanics itself.Quote:
Originally Posted by TamiaBlack
There are people who get kicked mainly for those reasons. And those games are heavy on mechanics, most of them 1 shot. -
11-04-2017, 07:05 AMDeithwenJust a few questions, do you believe that the World First group currently on undending coil don't need a parser ?Quote:
Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI
Do you believe that of all the players that killed O4S ( or any previous raids) didn't parse themselves at least at some point to improve their rotation or gameplay ?
Do you believe it's actually reasonable to say you can reach 100% of your job capabilities without any parser ? and thus clearing the content that requires that level of mastery ? -
11-04-2017, 07:42 AMMoroMurasakiBeing able to clear something that someone else is able to clear is not the same as being on a level playing field. A group not using food or pot buffs might be able to clear the same content as a group who does use them but objectively the group using all the tools at tgeir disposal has an advantage over the group who does not.Quote:
Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI
You are mistaking equality of outcome (clearing a particular instance) with equality of opportunity (having the same tools available to use as anyone else with the same goal as you) and these things are not the same.
I said at the beginning of this exchange that it seemed as if you didn't understand what the word disadvantage meant. After this all I feel like that is still the core issue here. You could argue that not having parsers does not cripple PS4 players, you could back up that argument by finding a group of players clearing Savage content with absolutely no parsers involved but what you can't argue is the objective fact that walking into any situation with tons of less information than you could have is disadvantageous. If you want to try to simplify this into something that suits your narrative all you have to do is ignore all of what I've said and also basic definitions of words that elementary school children understand.
Antecdotal and easily dismissed. Please bring something other than " in this other game someone was mean to me!" to the table if you're trying to make a point, the problem is your opinion isn't worth any more than another GW2 player saying it isn't toxic which, if I'm not mistaken, has already happened.Quote:
Originally Posted by TamiaBlack
Anti parser crowd I'm still waiting for any factual argument against official parsers - not that there is one but let's see what you've got. -
11-04-2017, 07:49 AMAster_EThank you for your time on this. Now, this sounds like a nice feature, if only it were advertised better by the few dozen parsers I've encountered who only look at the outgoing damage meter and not at such things as buffs, debuffs, incoming circumstances, and so forth. That is, it can be quite nice, certainly, for people who need that extra set of eyes to tell them what went wrong. As a Bard and healer both, I have lost count of how many times I've witnessed a fight going south because: 1) people essentially "stood in the fire," 2) didn't stun an incoming big attack (or even something small but dangerous like Final Sting), or 3) simply weren't doing proper rotations for the size of the pull, despite having the resources (TP and MP) to use their abilities. All of these things I could easily see with my own eyes while still managing to do my own job, as can the majority of decent healers or better that I know. Funny enough, the few "decent or better" healers I've met you missed these things were either half-asleep OR were staring at the outgoing damage meters (and no other resource provided by the parse).Quote:
Originally Posted by Deithwen
I can concede the point you are trying to make with NidEx, regarding incoming damage from one or both staves exploding, people getting hit by blue orbs, or people taking damage from the stack mechanic; though, on the other hand, these are things ranged dps and healers alike can spot with ease, along with people with blue tethers standing in stacks when they don't need to or the same people getting hit by orbs. The one thing I don't do is name names when that happens since I keep joining alleged "farms" that turn into progression more often than not, but I do at least say "Hey, blue tethers are taking too much damage," or "red tethers aren't taking enough.Quote:
For nidex you can see that the damages you took actually healed the tower, for Zurvan you can see the damages dealt by the chain if you're too far. etc. it won't teach you how to deal precisely with every mechanics in the game, but during progression it provides great information on what's happening and what causes a wipe, allowing you to take measures tu counter that and learn from your mistakes.
As for Zurvan, yes, that is a nice point, but it did not answer my question. I asked specifically about standing in your correct color (while your dance partner is nearby), not about staying close to your dance partner in general.
Certainly, it can be alright in the right hands, as I said from my first post here. I have no problem with people using it if they honestly need some sort of comparison to where they CAN stand in a fight and where they can improve - the more power to them. It's people, however, who abuse this knowledge alone to only get big numbers in places where just decent ones will suffice, and they are my concern. There are far less of them, currently, in this game compared to a raiding game like WoW. Again, I don't name names. I tend to forget about them since they're relatively harmless at the moment.Quote:
Although, regarding people only using it as a DPS meter, that's right, some will just use it for that sole purpose.
And honestly, I don't find it that bad. They can use it as a tool to improve. Imagine you just clear Shinryu ex, and happened to be parsing the fight. You barely killed in time, but managed. Now you get into farm groups, and this time the group is competent, but there is a tiny bit less dps than the time where you killed it and end up wiping. The parse will show you that, on average the group lacked x amount of Dps, and you can also see who is under-performing, and try to help those person.
("especially" by the way, and also just a heads-up but you made a minor lingual slip earlier and said "tu" instead of "you." It's no biggie.)Quote:
On the other hand, you can work on the damages you deal and improve as a bard to maximize your dps output. This has 3 benefits :
- you get better as a player
- you can compensate other's mistakes
- you can skip phases which means faster clears (great for farming) and less stress overall on the players (expecially the healers) and less room for mistakes
When my gear is up to date and I understand a fight enough to anticipate phase skips or changes, I do more than fine even when my Straighter Shot doesn't proc. Right now, the number one thing holding back my Bard is that the weapon is still only i310, and that's by a choice I made back when I thought we were getting relics in a few weeks from now (as opposed to whenever Eureka finally comes out, which might be 4.2, from what I understand).
You made more assumptions or hand-waves here than I care to shake a stick at. To top it off, you missed a lot of points. Here's a short list of quick responses to your post here:Quote:
Originally Posted by HyoMinPark
1) Answering one anecdote with another is not a solid argument. At best, unreliable hearsay versus unreliable hearsay is politics. At worst... let's just not. For that matter, let's not assume everything is an anecdote just because we do not agree with it.
2) No, Ultimate has nothing to do with what I'm saying. Adding any actual content is nothing compared to what I'm saying, at all. I'm referring to a QoL level feature that I am opposed to having in-game, but don't mind the right people using in general. (My apologies that you see people cry about Ultimate or the like, for whatever reason, since I like the idea of it)
3) I'm not saying a parser will be a jerk just for being a parser. Once again, and let me be perfectly clear right here, a parse is a tool. Bad people will use tools for bad reasons. Putting the tool inside of the game sends a signal to some, not all, such bad people that they are getting a thing that they want and thus must be right. Sounds like bad logic, right? The fallacy lies in those same individuals, not in the majority of parsers I have encountered.
4) Yes, there is more to Bard than Refulgent Arrow, just like there is more to the sky than being blue, or to water than being wet. I was not talking about the songs, which I do use in fights regularly.
5) I'm well aware of theory-crafters. They play the game in their own way. Furthermore, my question was to Señor Deithwen (note: I say that out of respect) specifically since it was he who brought this up to me. Thank you, however, for trying to respond to a question meant for him.
6) One more time, because it keeps on getting missed no matter how much I keep saying it, I see the good in some people who use the tool as it stands outside of the game, I see the bad, and I see the gray area in between. -
11-04-2017, 08:12 AMKhemorexIm still waiting for your scientific report where it says that people can handle a tool responsible without being a douche bag :PQuote:
Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki
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11-04-2017, 08:29 AMDeaconMoorePeople are people. You're going to encounter random jerks at times when doing a group with random people. I would hope however, you are capable of making some friends that aren't "douche bags" to run some content with.Quote:
Originally Posted by Khemorex