What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

Are souls within the universe of 14 finite?

I think the lore forum is "dead" because we've largely exhausted avenues for discussion/speculation until 6.1, especially since we didn't get any teasers/cliffhangers at the end of the MSQ this go around.

It'll likely liven up once the 6.1 trailer drops, though.

The Endsinger did nothing wrong :)

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

A while ago this thread was suddenly brigaded by a bunch of Venat defenders and I heard it was because someone had posted the link in one of their Discords. :P

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Those who frequented the lore forum for some time might also have noted similar behaviour within it as well at times.

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Originally Posted by PawPaw

If by "ruin" you mean, debate my opposing views to the fullest then by all means yes! Pretty sure those who disagree don't have a monopoly on open discussion anywhere on the Internet.

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It's just weird, really. People were linking it to give a flavour of some discussions on there. Many of us already frequent it one way or another. Apparently the fact that out of the 600k or so posters reddit has, a few of us expressing criticism of Venat on there is a huge problem, even if that wasn't really the intention behind posting the links - but people are adults and it's not really my business to police whether they do go on there to discuss it or not, nor do I see an issue with it. I tend to avoid 'discussions' on there as they often devolve into little more than shouting matches, and some users there can engage in behaviour that borders on stalking.

It's already an echo chamber in a different direction - redditors are often in the habit of downvoting any posts critical of the story, particularly if they're posted early on in a thread... and again, this sort of defensiveness was never present back in SHB, when reddit was full of threads that got quite heated about anyone who liked Emet (other than for those people who just liked shipping him...although even then I noticed some instances of it.) But with Venat we're just meant to roll with it and "move on". Strange. Should it be surprising that there is more pushback now given how EW concluded and the tidbits the Q&A clarified? I'd say no.

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Originally Posted by Kozh

You ask people to stop whenever there's a little bit of hydaelyn vs zodiark debate outside of that one thread, people comply to that, then you blame us for making the lore forum dead? There's a bazillion ff14 lore that had nothing to do with Hydaely/Zodiark, and even if some people go rogue and post irrelevant debate on that threads, you can just ignore them? Go make your own lore threads if you're that concerned about it being dead lol. Lore forum being low traffic isn't weird, pretty much happen in other place too. Even lore discussion discord devolves into arguing over morality etc just like here or reddit, because when there's nothing new added, what should people discuss that haven't been done?

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https://i.imgur.com/H1YJFek.jpg

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Originally Posted by Kozh

You ask people to stop whenever there's a little bit of hydaelyn vs zodiark debate outside of that one thread, people comply to that, then you blame us for making the lore forum dead? There's a bazillion ff14 lore that had nothing to do with Hydaely/Zodiark, and even if some people go rogue and post irrelevant debate on that threads, you can just ignore them? Go make your own lore threads if you're that concerned about it being dead lol. Lore forum being low traffic isn't weird, pretty much happen in other place too. Even lore discussion discord devolves into arguing over morality etc just like here or reddit, because when there's nothing new added, what should people discuss that haven't been done?

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Quite frankly, a lot of people have little desire to discuss the lore until we get some clearer indication of where things are headed in the future and whether it's even something worth taking an interest in. There's already some good posters on there who either have quit or are on the verge of doing so, including amongst them those originally receptive to Venat as a character, so coupled with the fact that it's a quieter period, I am not surprised. Though as you say, said poster is free to set up threads on topics that interest them or participate in existing ones... but it's not like anyone has an obligation to keep the lore forum active or not cross-link reddit threads...

Wait, so is engaging in a linked discussion against the rules of the internet now? Do I have to stumble upon the Reddit thread organically for me to obey the law? Or is it okay if I click that link then just nod politely and upvote everything? I am very confused. Also, I thought the notion of "brigading" involved some sort of numerical imbalance, such as mass vote manipulation. Oh jeez, beware the Ascian/Garlean stans who read page #203 of a particular thread on the official forums, the whole 8 of them are quite the force to be reckoned with, they might drown out Endwalker positivity!

For the record, I didn't engage in said Reddit thread. I went cross-eyed just glancing at the replies. I admire people who bother at all; personally I just don't feel like I have the mental energy to step out of my comfortable bubbles of comprehensive people just yet. I will fully admit I am right now a somewhat fragile person with a history of depression looking for a job, and honestly this thread has been fantastic group therapy! I feel less insane and alone. Maybe one day I'll be willing to speak to Endwalker enjoyers without feeling isolated and wholly inadequate (I am... not very articulate or good at arguing anything).

Personally, I jokingly refer to Hydaelyn/Venat as "Mommy" not in a mean-spirited way, but just because it's a bit of a fandom meme that grew into an habit (I would like to point out that the top comment on the Reddit thread previously mentioned is literally just "mommy"). Naturally, I would be 200% onboard with referring to Elidibus/Zodiark as Daddy for gender equality, but as it happens, the story never really featured the former as the latter (the whole deal apparently just being a plot device to justify a cool fight and retroactively give us an in-game excuse for why Elidibus never told us about Ancient history prior to 5.0 even though he seemed to be the best fit for it as mediator), and the latter by himself was revealed to not actually be a character but just the former's EVA unit. Alas, there appears to be very little legitimate ground to call him Daddy because this entire plot line is one big missed opportunity, never mind the fact that calling Babyface McShortking "Daddy" would feel a little weird.

If anything, it is the forum which is the more susceptible of the two to such activity.

For me it's a matter of time commitment and effort. I purposely prevent myself from activities that threaten to become a non-value-add time sink to me, and reddit discussions very much fall into that category, by and large. :p

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Originally Posted by EaraGrace

Please tell me where I said harassment. Words do have meanings.

And sure I’ll by all means follow up on doing that :)

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Brigading is a form of online harassment. You should probably bother to look up the word before trying to argue the meaning of it lol. Also, by all means report it and tell me how that goes.

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Originally Posted by Jin-

The Endsinger did nothing wrong :)

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Honestly, I agree, in the sense that she has always just been an emotion sponge with the apparent mind of a child, sent on a mission with a dubious premise that she wasn't properly equipped to handle. I feel like there is little to say on Meteion as a character because she just... doesn't feel like much of a character to me, beyond her being kawaii uguu before graduating to Amano artwork to fit in with the two other story trials. Meteion simply is what she was irresponsibly created to be, and I don't see much more to go on there. She's Hermes's Twitter botnet that was taught by aliens to RT nihilism, and his favorite hobby happens to be doomscrolling.

(For the same reason, her still existing at the end is probably a massive risk to everyone on Etheirys. I sure hope she doesn't fly over Ilsabard!)

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Originally Posted by Kozh

Don't remind me please, I'm still angry that The Sound turns out is just some broken twitter bird (made by a totally-fit-for-chief-position guy) screaming at us. I remember going into quite a deep rabbit hole discussing the Sound back in ShB, ranging from simple "it's jenova", to "it's Pandaemonium", to something something with deep symbolic meaning.

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My "favorite" was that it was just a cry of the Planet because the mean Ancients were abusing it with their creation magicks. You don't understand, I need to have them deserve it instead of the Final Days simply being happenstance tragedy so I can sleep soundly at night knowing the bad guys were definitely wrong and bad!

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Originally Posted by Kozh

Same with how "zodiark weave a new reality", when it's actually just "put aether bubble" and "jump start the stagnated etheirys's aether" (I mean, it's still an incredible feat, but very much less cool).

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Yeah, that sure sounded cooler at the time lol. In a way, I wanted them to explain at least a little what "rewriting the laws of reality" entailed, but now that it turned out to be so completely ... mundane?, I can't help but feel disappointed. To be fair though, this applies to most of my EW experience, but I'm still salty about the complete lack of Final Eclipse, both in the actual trial and in lore as far as we know. I wanted to see it.

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Originally Posted by Kozh

And we have people constantly comparing us to genocide apologist, colonize apologist, people repeteadly discuss defense of Emet as just simping and lacking real-life morality, people who openly insults and to some extent using death-threat. All of this ever since day one since ShB dropped. Even way before if we change it into discussion regarding Gaius or other villains.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

One thing I noticed, however, was that some pretty spiteful and nasty accusations were aimed at anyone who ever dared to speak up in favour of the antagonists. This included death threats, homophobic comments and other unpleasant elements. Given that the offending posts were deleted, however, then such will have to be taken with a pinch of salt - though I'd like to think those who are being genuine and who have been around for a while will be aware of what I'm speaking of. Especially since some of the offending comments leaked into Reddit, Twitter and certain Discord servers.

The most fascinating thing I observed was that certain posters would repeatedly launch thinly veiled attacks and sometimes direct personal attacks at fans of the antagonists, implying all manner of horrible things about their person and real world morality. When finally those being assaulted had enough, even a minor quip in response would be treated as some deeply horrific crime and personal attack.

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I wish I could say I have no idea what you guys are talking about, because I don't interact with the general fandom much, but I have unfortunately seen this on FFXIV Twitter. People quote-retweeting or outright replying with snark and abuse just to insult other people because they project the other's taste in (villainous) fictional characters onto their real-life ideals urgently need to touch real grass, in the real world that is separate from fiction. My favorite example is one particular denizen of Primal who was apparently offended by SE posting Tales From The Shadows 7 "'Ere Our Curtain Falls" because its main subjects are "genocidal maniacs". This just in: please do not give your main antagonists backstory or the Twitter Vigilantes will judge you as an author.

Is it something specific to FFXIV fandom, or just fandom in general as of late? I mean, there's always been a decent amount of people preferring the villains, right? Sephiroth, Kefka, a handful of Batman villains, Darth Vader, movie characters that happen to be played by the late Alan Rickman – it isn't exactly new. I am just weirded out by how prominent the moral crusaders seem to be in here. I feel like I need some kind of licence to be allowed to like villains, all while constantly walking on eggshells to remind anyone I interact with that I do not condone genocide as an actual person in the real world. I didn't feel like this was the case when I was actively participating in the ASOIAF/Game of Thrones fandom around 2014. Good thing, too, else I would be routinely accused of being a manipulative, back-stabbing malignant narcissist grooming a teenager, and frankly that would be a little awkward.

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Originally Posted by Teraq

Or is it okay if I click that link then just nod politely and upvote everything?

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I'm pretty sure that would have been acceptable behavior.

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

A while ago this thread was suddenly brigaded by a bunch of Venat defenders and I heard it was because someone had posted the link in one of their Discords. :P

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Well, well, the irony of it all. Color me shocked.

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Originally Posted by Teraq

Is it something specific to FFXIV fandom, or just fandom in general as of late? I mean, there's always been a decent amount of people preferring the villains, right? Sephiroth, Kefka, a handful of Batman villains, Darth Vader, movie characters that happen to be played by the late Alan Rickman – it isn't exactly new. I am just weirded out by how prominent the moral crusaders seem to be in here. I feel like I need some kind of licence to be allowed to like villains, all while constantly walking on eggshells to remind anyone I interact with that I do not condone genocide as an actual person in the real world.

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I've definitely seen more of it in the FFXIV fandom than I have anywhere else. Maybe the RP and headcanon elements have something to do with it? As you said, villains tend to be extremely popular in many different kinds of media and video games are no exception. The number of times I saw people who dislike Venat and/or like Ascians being compared to literal nazis on reddit yesterday was absolutely hilarious. I can only assume that it's an inability of some to distinguish reality from a written narrative. They can only associate things they perceive as "bad" with whatever real-life example they can come up with, and it doesn't register for them that the comparison is simply a false equivalency. Liking Darth Vader does not automatically mean that one would support a real-life Galactic Empire. Possibly there is a belief in these circles that people who can see the good parts of "bad" characters must only be able to relate and empathize because they are "bad" themselves. Doesn't really matter anyway, there's a reason that villains are popular the world over, after all. Most people just don't take it that seriously and love characters that are fun and interesting. They're not real, at the end of the day.

I think people are just more passionate about FFXIV's characters quite simply because of how much better they are and how much more time is sunk into them.
I mean what is there to be passionate about with WoW's characters for example outside of '' I like Garrosh cuz red muscle man Orc cool ''.
Or uh, the complete nothing that is the Jailer?
Sylvanas never says anything her monologues are a bunch of nothing lets be real here she gets carried ultra hard by the voice acting ( which is incredible, I love her voice ) and Jaina basically just stands around looking mad and says '' Anduin '' sometimes.
Whenever they talk it's either pointless nothingness or them doing the usual vidya gaem talk of just pointing out what's happening as if the player is brainless and has no eyes.

There's just not much to really get attached to while in FFXIV the characters are way more fleshed out and I think it makes people feel more attached to them and it can also have the opposite effect too if they don't like a character and then a lot of time is sunk into them or they get mad because of what those characters do to characters they like etc.
Generally speaking I'd say narrative driven games just makes people more emotional and passionate whether it's MMO's or not.
And then you combine that too with the usual Redditor and Twitterist shenanigans and yeah...

It's not really so much that '' FFXIV fandom = toxic '' in that sense it's that a particular type of person just might be drawn to FFXIV, they were already toxic to begin with.
I'd say the same for WoW too the toxicity tends to be more on the dudebro side of things, because I think a lot of those types of people are just turned off by FFXIV but like the muscle nipple men and huge space marine sized armor etc.

Reddit is a cess pool.

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Originally Posted by EaraGrace

And the fact that you see a thread reduced to more shitflinging and another thread that never got above single digit upvotes as something wholly positive is telling. It seems like there’s not much interest in discussing these things and more interest in making everyone agree with you.

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I don't know what you're talking about, but I visit r/ffxiv almost daily. I shared the link I did because it was an anomaly and I was genuinely surprised to see Venat getting any criticism. Perhaps if you don't frequent it you're less aware of the toxic positivity and any criticism of the game, no matter how mild, being double digit downvoted.

I believe I've said before my primary interest is to commiserate with others who didn't enjoy EW. I believe how someone views Venat and her actions depends on their values and those aren't likely to be changed. Plus, after the LL I'm no longer interested in debate. It was made clear I think about the lore more extensively than the writers do, so it's pointless for me get into the details when they don't do as much.

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Originally Posted by PawPaw

The number of times I saw people who dislike Venat and/or like Ascians being compared to literal nazis on reddit yesterday was absolutely hilarious.

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Coming from the WoW community it's just bizarre. I won't say there were no cases of it happening, but liking or disliking a character and their actions wasn't applied morally to the player themselves the way it seems to be here. The fact that FFXIV is a fictional universe where reincarnation is confirmed and souls can be split seems to be lost on many.

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Originally Posted by NanaWiloh

Reddit is a cess pool.

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I've stopped using and even reading Reddit and I make an effort to only follow artists on Twitter and to try and not read the comments, I am also way more active with unfollowing or even blocking people I keep seeing popping up in my timeline more consistently with stuff that is just toxic bullshit and gives me a headache.
I've become much happier and less stressed out as a result.
It still does get to me sometimes when I see it and it's impossible to avoid but you can *almost* get rid of all of it if you make an effort.

I think a lot of people view anonymity and the internet as a chance of just being complete garbage with no consequences and they take it.
There's just so much totally unnecessary cruelty and douchebaggery on Reddit and Twitter ( and places like Steam forums especially ), I dunno how even something as simple as not being rude to artists and cosplayers is so hard for some to understand.
Something so simple that should be positive so often derails into negativity the moment you scroll down the comments.

The thing that makes this especially sad too is that both Reddit and Twitter does have a lot of power, it does drive a lot of culture and narrative.
So it's kinda sad how it's essentially just left to turn into brain rot because of an extremely terminally online minority.

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Originally Posted by Teraq

I wish I could say I have no idea what you guys are talking about, because I don't interact with the general fandom much, but I have unfortunately seen this on FFXIV Twitter. People quote-retweeting or outright replying with snark and abuse just to insult other people because they project the other's taste in (villainous) fictional characters onto their real-life ideals urgently need to touch real grass, in the real world that is separate from fiction. My favorite example is one particular denizen of Primal who was apparently offended by SE posting Tales From The Shadows 7 "'Ere Our Curtain Falls" because its main subjects are "genocidal maniacs". This just in: please do not give your main antagonists backstory or the Twitter Vigilantes will judge you as an author.

Is it something specific to FFXIV fandom, or just fandom in general as of late? I mean, there's always been a decent amount of people preferring the villains, right? Sephiroth, Kefka, a handful of Batman villains, Darth Vader, movie characters that happen to be played by the late Alan Rickman – it isn't exactly new. I am just weirded out by how prominent the moral crusaders seem to be in here. I feel like I need some kind of licence to be allowed to like villains, all while constantly walking on eggshells to remind anyone I interact with that I do not condone genocide as an actual person in the real world. I didn't feel like this was the case when I was actively participating in the ASOIAF/Game of Thrones fandom around 2014. Good thing, too, else I would be routinely accused of being a manipulative, back-stabbing malignant narcissist grooming a teenager, and frankly that would be a little awkward.

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I've never seen it with any other game fandom I've dipped my toes into - at least, not to the point of reaching any critical mass. Granted, I stayed on the EU side of the WoW fora, but this sort of preachy finger-wagging towards anyone who enjoyed the antagonists or villains is something I've only really seen with this fandom. And frankly, it's one I hope to not see mirrored in any other games I move onto.

The war it wageth on. The essays carry on. Real talk, word economy goes a long way. Pages of long form post make one's eyes glaze over a bit and tends to make one unwilling to engage with the argument presented.

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Originally Posted by Teraq

Also, I thought the notion of "brigading" involved some sort of numerical imbalance, such as mass vote manipulation.

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Yes, that is absolutely a part of brigading. But for some reason there's a person in this thread who thinks that creating a reddit post that talks about the EW story's shortcomings is an act of "brigading." Lol.

Did somebody order one extra long post? Coming right up with uncut quotes!

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Originally Posted by Lauront

Quite frankly, a lot of people have little desire to discuss the lore until we get some clearer indication of where things are headed in the future and whether it's even something worth taking an interest in. There's already some good posters on there who either have quit or are on the verge of doing so, including amongst them those originally receptive to Venat as a character, so coupled with the fact that it's a quieter period, I am not surprised.

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Out of curiosity, have these posters quit because the main storyline is done so they've decided they are as well? Did some quit because of discontent with Endwalker specifically?

Having lurked on the lore forums from time to time for patch reaction threads, I like reading it sometimes but it's always seemed a little niche to me. I find it a little intimidating too, it's often the same long time posters engaging in long discussions and I feel like I would contribute nothing the lore buffs haven't already said, beside just giving my unrequited opinion (take a shot every time I say "I feel / It feels like ...").

And yeah, the current period is a very particular one. We just finished The Story Arc 3 months ago. I'm guessing things have been discussed to death already, and it's unclear if they're going to go back to dwell on some specific points relating to The Story Arc (e.g. YoshiP isn't quite sure if the remaining Ascians are going to get involved or not), so I suppose what hasn't been disclosed in 6.0 is now conjecture until further notice. The recent Q&A probably ... livened things up a bit.
But so far I feel like there's little to discuss given how little we know about where we're going, bearing in mind the constraints that come with the next 2 years being only patch content. Which means most likely no new continent involved; at most we're getting a couple of instanced zones like Bozja/Eureka, and I am willing to bet at least one region we've heard of but never been to is going to end up as a dungeon (e.g. Xelphatol and Paglth'an), which at least one person is going to be massively disappointed by. I am not sure how engaging the story is going to be with bite-sized pieces every 4 months or so. I am hoping they will give us a lot more info in the next LL, because I just can't imagine 6.1 will be mind-shattering enough to warrant completely hiding the new dungeon. A teaser would have fostered more discussion.

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Originally Posted by Kolsykol

I think people are just more passionate about FFXIV's characters quite simply because of how much better they are and how much more time is sunk into them.
I mean what is there to be passionate about with WoW's characters for example outside of '' I like Garrosh cuz red muscle man Orc cool ''.
Or uh, the complete nothing that is the Jailer?
Sylvanas never says anything her monologues are a bunch of nothing lets be real here she gets carried ultra hard by the voice acting ( which is incredible, I love her voice ) and Jaina basically just stands around looking mad and says '' Anduin '' sometimes.
Whenever they talk it's either pointless nothingness or them doing the usual vidya gaem talk of just pointing out what's happening as if the player is brainless and has no eyes.

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Completely agreed here, I've played WoW uninterrupted from 2006 to 2016, then on and off since then but always keeping up with news, but its story has always been just bland background noise to me. Which characters have ever even been an actual hit with the player base? Off the top of my head, recently, I can think of Runas in Azsuna who was pretty universally liked, but he's a minor quest NPC. Arthas was done a long time ago, and them dragging him out just now only to have Sylvanas preach at him without much of a peep from Jaina and Uther literally standing there is, I would say, the opposite of fan service.
Personally I enjoy the Warcraft universe mostly for its setting and world building (when it is/was coherent, I suppose), but specific plot lines and characters have never appealed to me. It's telling that the most involved (and toxic) WoW discourse that most readily comes to my mind is the Great Playable High Elf debate; something that is purely about immersion and in-universe fantasy rather than any particular character.

It is truly astonishing how empty the Jailer feels. As a presence, as a character, even in terms of visual design. He has brought nothing, and even made prior content worse by retcon, like some sort of negative energy. Perhaps he has been the true Void all along.

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Originally Posted by Kolsykol

It's not really so much that '' FFXIV fandom = toxic '' in that sense it's that a particular type of person just might be drawn to FFXIV, they were already toxic to begin with.

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That is an interesting thought. I'm not sure what it is about FFXIV in particular that would draw in this brand of moral policing.
You've compared it to WoW as they are both the same genre, and it is true FFXIV is quite in the unique situation of being a narratively-driven MMORPG written well enough to actually engage the audience. On the subject of them being a genre in which you completely create your character, may get immersed in the setting and invested in headcanons, I admittedly don't know much about western RPGs but I can't imagine, say, the TES fanbase getting this weirdly preachy about the Empire / Stormcloak narrative in Skyrim for example.
One particularity of MMORPGs is the time investment and serialised content – combined with the decent writing of FFXIV, it makes it so you've grown to know these characters for a while and have expectations for where the story is going. In this way, it's sort of like a long-running TV show, but I personally don't remember fans of the Lannisters or Littlefinger getting personally attacked for liking villainous characters. But I suppose in the case of non-RPG media, the hero isn't your creation, specifically, so it's less personal.

Or maybe there is just something in the water of Limsa Lominsa. Truth be told, I fear there might be a lot of things in the water of Limsa Lominsa, some less savory than others...


Just so my post isn't completely off-topic: the MIN/BOT quest NPCs discussing Ancient culture was so bizarrely wholesome it gave me warm fuzzies. On one hand, of course a couple of Sharlayan scholars would absolutely love the concept. But on the other hand, aw. Ancient positivity in Endwalker! In game!

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Originally Posted by Teraq

Just so my post isn't completely off-topic: the MIN/BOT quest NPCs discussing Ancient culture was so bizarrely wholesome it gave me warm fuzzies. On one hand, of course a couple of Sharlayan scholars would absolutely love the concept. But on the other hand, aw. Ancient positivity in Endwalker! In game!

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I hadn't seen this! I'll have to check it out whenever I log in next.

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Originally Posted by Teraq

Out of curiosity, have these posters quit because the main storyline is done so they've decided they are as well? Did some quit because of discontent with Endwalker specifically?

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The latter, and for varying reasons to do with how they concluded the story.

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Having lurked on the lore forums from time to time for patch reaction threads, I like reading it sometimes but it's always seemed a little niche to me. I find it a little intimidating too, it's often the same long time posters engaging in long discussions and I feel like I would contribute nothing the lore buffs haven't already said, beside just giving my unrequited opinion (take a shot every time I say "I feel / It feels like ...").

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Certainly there tends to be some of the same posters engaged in 'long' discussions there, but it's not a debate forum - it is a lore discussion forum, and the standard of discussion is by and large similar to what goes on here, since it is there to discuss the lore/story elements, not submit a thesis on it. It's not the Studium. :p Plus there are a lot of newer posters, as well as some returning ones, or some who bid their time before making a forum account to post. There's some "lore buffs" but it's not like it's limited to discussion between them. There are also some who'd attempt to gatekeep on there, but I'd just ignore them entirely. They have no ability to stop you from posting there. Besides, you seem to have a firmer grasp on the lore than most players, so I'd not be too apprehensive if I were you...

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but I personally don't remember fans of the Lannisters or Littlefinger getting personally attacked for liking villainous characters. But I suppose in the case of non-RPG media, the hero isn't your creation, specifically, so it's less personal.

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Also partly the case because it's much harder to single them out for it in a setting where everyone is given to some level of scheming or other, and those who aren't, are simply new to the 'game'. However, I think it's also partly down to the fanbase. With WoW my experience was that there was generally a more even split in people who enjoyed antagonists or shadier characters, and again it's aided by the fact that the playable races themselves all have skeletons in their closets (or are said skeletons in the case of the Forsaken.) The game had a share of players who reminded me of XIV's more puritan segments but they were merely one cohort amongst many.

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Originally Posted by Teraq

I wish I could say I have no idea what you guys are talking about, because I don't interact with the general fandom much, but I have unfortunately seen this on FFXIV Twitter. People quote-retweeting or outright replying with snark and abuse just to insult other people because they project the other's taste in (villainous) fictional characters onto their real-life ideals urgently need to touch real grass, in the real world that is separate from fiction. My favorite example is one particular denizen of Primal who was apparently offended by SE posting Tales From The Shadows 7 "'Ere Our Curtain Falls" because its main subjects are "genocidal maniacs". This just in: please do not give your main antagonists backstory or the Twitter Vigilantes will judge you as an author.

Is it something specific to FFXIV fandom, or just fandom in general as of late? I mean, there's always been a decent amount of people preferring the villains, right? Sephiroth, Kefka, a handful of Batman villains, Darth Vader, movie characters that happen to be played by the late Alan Rickman – it isn't exactly new. I am just weirded out by how prominent the moral crusaders seem to be in here. I feel like I need some kind of licence to be allowed to like villains, all while constantly walking on eggshells to remind anyone I interact with that I do not condone genocide as an actual person in the real world. I didn't feel like this was the case when I was actively participating in the ASOIAF/Game of Thrones fandom around 2014. Good thing, too, else I would be routinely accused of being a manipulative, back-stabbing malignant narcissist grooming a teenager, and frankly that would be a little awkward.

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I think, at its core, it's an inability for those deep in the social media sphere to separate fiction from reality. There's always been some weird stuff in pretty much every fandom, some more than others. I suppose it's so prominent in FFXIV because of the strong crossover between people who use Twitter and those who play FFXIV.

After all, most of what is considered to be 'problematic' is based entirely on bizarre talking points copied and pasted from Twitter; a place that - especially over the last two years - has made it crystal clear that it is often very disconnected from reality as most of us know it.
Personally I don't care what characters or factions people end up liking. It doesn't affect me in itself. I'm not the type to just roll over and pretend not to like something because a vocal group of social media users try to shame others for it.

Endwalker further emboldened me to simply laugh it off. If the issue was genuinely that the actions of the antagonists were truly so abhorrent then Venat would be thrown under the bus as a consequence of partaking of the same behaviour and to a greater extent.

She gets a free pass from many of her supporters, however - which is fine - but in the process it exposes the concern towards fans of the antagonists as little more than a petty attempt at narrative control.

I'm not even a 'lore guy' usually. I primarily want a game to play first and foremost but I do appreciate it when a story is consistent and makes sense - which unfortunately is something that I think cannot be said of Endwalker.

That vocal portions of the lore community tried and failed to control what is and isn't 'allowed' to be discussed simply made me double down even more where I might have taken the fire and forget approach to posts each time a new patch went live.

Question. Is being sundered equal to being dead? The persons sundered weren't really killed right? Just split 14 ways? Or is that one of those "fates worse than death"? My first reaction is no, only on the premise that the Ancients themselves viewed a things Aether to merely be a tangible substance, to be woven as seen fit(one side quest Elpis NPC talked about eating a familiar Gaelkittin's Aether lol). Even their version of actual death of returning to the aetherical sea seemed more like a retirement home the way it has been described. Was just curious seeing all the "genocide" comments. At least the game made it seem like a better way out than being sacrificed to Zodiark where those appeared to be more imprisoned, unable to return to the sea(unless I am mistaken).

They're not merely split, no. It altered them along a number of traits, not limited to: ability to use creation magicks, each individual's full suite of Echo abilities, aetheric density, physical dimensions, susceptibility to illness, and most importantly, lifespans. The latter point alone is enough to constitute killing, because the resulting beings went from ancients with lifespans probably in the thousands of years to beings with lifespans of, at the very most, a few hundred years, and for most races, much less than this. The evolution of the sundered races of man is directly attributed to the Sundering. If you inflicted a poison or magic on a being that drastically cut its lifespan, I fail to see how that is not killing. What emerged are very different beings, at the expense of those sundered.

On the last point, it's not an either/or. Those souls inside Zodiark forming him had to fuel him in the absence of alternative methods to do so and volunteered to do it. Venat's plan would not alter that. Her actions targeted the surviving ancients who were not inside him.

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Originally Posted by Lauront

They're not merely split, no. It altered them along a number of traits, not limited to: ability to use creation magicks, aetheric density, physical dimensions, susceptibility to illness, and most importantly, lifespans. The latter point alone is enough to constitute killing, because the resulting beings went from ancients with lifespans probably in the thousands of years to beings with lifespans of, at the very most, a few hundred years, and for most races, much less than this. The evolution of the sundered races of man is directly attributed to the Sundering. If you inflicted a poison or magic on a being that drastically cut its lifespan, I fail to see how that is not killing. What emerged are very different beings, at the expense of those sundered.

On the last point, it's not an either/or. Those souls inside Zodiark forming him had to fuel him in the absence of alternative methods to do so and volunteered to do it. Venat's plan would not alter that. Her actions targeted the surviving ancients who were not inside him.

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Understandable in that sense. Though without knowing more and given the story we were given, idk what's worse: being sundered and having your soul make it back to the aetherical sea piece by piece(if that's how it happens), or being trapped in Zodiark till he was defeated and you were set free(which again is my assumption).

So from 1 came 14. Different, but fundamentally additive. Can't see how those sundered really can care given they are no longer around.

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Originally Posted by Lauront

If you inflicted a poison or magic on a being that drastically cut its lifespan, I fail to see how that is not killing. What emerged are very different beings, at the expense of those sundered.

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Reading it over, I am not sure I fully agree with this point given the context of the story we were told. Zodiark was given form through "half of the planet Etheirys's population" to delay the final days. After that only provided a bandaid fix, in the cutscene we see what is presumably another half was about to given before Venat sundered the world. This was assumed to potentially continue till nothing was left. So I do not fully agree that however many "half of Etheirys" over and over again to be sacrificed to Zodiark is any worse or better than taking the life that would have been sacrificed and splitting it up in presumably equal parts across 14 reflections. Not saying one is right over the other, though sundering had to exist for some reason for our character to exist, just noting I don't think either outcome was preferable over the other, "damned if you do, damned if you don't".

Now to be fair, I do think it was a notion of "finish this story by writing a beginning to fit the end that aligns with what we set up Shadowbringers", along with "fan service in more Emet and Hythlodaus" plus "write something in that allows the character to interact with pre-sundered Etheirys because people will like that fan service" was at play. So it could have probably been delivered a little better, maybe over two expansions instead of just one. I did at least like that Zodiark vs Hydaelyn wasn't a Bad vs Good, or Zodiark actually good vs Hydaelyn actually bad but more of Zodiark is a neutral primal tool vs Hydaelyn is a necessary good/bad and surprise look at that despair bird over there. At most I'll be happy to move on from "Ascians" and the droned out Hydaelyn vs Zodiark to hopefully some interesting, albeit scaled down, confrontations.

It's kind of funny that they retroactively made Emet-Selch even more sympathetic with the suggestion (Which is easily missed if you don't talk to Y'shtola before the Dead Ends) that the shades of Amaurot viewing us as children rather then familiars was a subconscious expression that he never truly bought into his whole "Sundered aren't really alive" narrative...though in further hindsight, that was already suggested by his feelings towards his son/Varis' father in one of the side stories.

Then on flipside, even people who felt completely pro-Hydaelyn/Venat originally ended up thinking badly of her despite apparently being totally contrary to what the writers seemed to be intending.

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Originally Posted by Caurcas

Are souls within the universe of 14 finite?

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If you choose believe the Scions' claims that the people who turned truly had their souls completely erased, then yes, though the game has entertained the notion that there's some deeper immutable part of the soul that simply isn't discernable by people without the Echo.

As things currently stand, it's kind of a "maybe, maybe not" situation that will probably get elaborated on if they decide to take a deeper dive into the blasphemy issue instead of brushing it off despite that they'd realistically still be a lingering presence all over the whole of Etheriys.

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Originally Posted by Ixon

Reading it over, I am not sure I fully agree with this point given the context of the story we were told. Zodiark was given form through "half of the planet Etheirys's population" to delay the final days. After that only provided a bandaid fix, in the cutscene we see what is presumably another half was about to given before Venat sundered the world.

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It's less to do with it being a bandaid fix, and more to do with how badly damaged the star was - see below.

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This was assumed to potentially continue till nothing was left.

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Assumed by whom? It's not suggested by any source on the topic that it would continue until nothing was left. For example, Hythlodaeus's shade mentions two stages and a final one (at which point they'd resume stewardship of the star), which they had debated amongst themselves as per later sources, until they reached a consensus to go ahead with it (Venat's group excepted):

https://i.imgur.com/uPg5xZT.png

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So I do not fully agree that however many "half of Etheirys" over and over again to be sacrificed to Zodiark is any worse or better than taking the life that would have been sacrificed and splitting it up in presumably equal parts across 14 reflections. Not saying one is right over the other, though sundering had to exist for some reason for our character to exist, just noting I don't think either outcome was preferable over the other, "damned if you do, damned if you don't".

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Again, it's not either/or. Her own plan is based on Zodiark being summoned and restoring the star. So all those sacrifices are required for it. The sundering is on top of this. The third stage involved unspecified "new" life, implied strongly by the JP version of the same text to be the life seeded by Zodiark (I'd suggest opening this one in a new window/saving it to get round the sizing):

https://i.imgur.com/OthrqGl.png

The texts are not specific on what they were, but Zodiark is shown to have the ability to realise creations via concepts readily - if these fit certain criteria, the star will bestow upon them appropriate souls, and they will constitute living entities. So it is quite likely, creations similar to those in Elpis.

The sundered are the surviving ancients. Not the intended sacrifices - and she only really opposes these because she believes if they were to restore the star and their civilisation, they'd end up like the Plenty - a function of her belief that they would not change.

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Originally Posted by Ixon

After that only provided a bandaid fix

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I honestly would not consider Zodiark merely a bandaid fix. The Ancients were presented with the Final Days out of nowhere, did what they thought their only, desperate option was to save their world and...it did the job. Zodiark is split into 14 and his heart goes for a walk and he still keeps on pumping out his shield and there is no reason that we've been presented with to believe that he would ever stop doing so or that he would ever require additional sacrifices. He seems to work just fine after 12k years without any. As long as he's alive, Meteion and her song simply cannot affect Eitherys. The Ancients didn't know what was happening to them but despite this, they still find a working answer to their problem. They want to replace the aether of their sacrificed loved ones with the aether of this "new seeded life" and go back to being the stewards of their star. No one knows for sure what this new life is, but I've always assumed it meant the life that had been mentioned directly before this part of the story, i.e. the plants and animals that had begun to grow again, seems only logical. And the world would have continued to turn and grow again, safe from Meteion and her "song". For all the talk about how the Ancients couldn't have possibly found a way to counter Meteion, they effectively did exactly that.

Fighting Meteion at its source? I mean, if literally no one in the world but one person knows that Meteion even exists then why would they care about that? For all they knew, they had achieved their goal of stopping the end of their world and now they wanted their people back; Which is a completely human reaction. I don't know anyone who, having lost someone precious, wouldn't jump at a chance to have them back again if they were presented with a magical means to do so.

The ancients issue is that they couldn't let go. If they had just accepted their losses, learned from it, and strived to be better then they never would have been sundered.

The writing was on the wall. They had to be sundered because of their arrogance, inability to let go, and desire to never change or accept consequences.

Yeah, not responding in the precise way she wanted during a time of extreme trauma (=planet still dying, most of their people gone), based on the platitudes she was spitting out = they deserved being destroyed as a civilisation. They should've just rolled over and accepted her word, even though they had managed to eradicate all manner of ills before... just roll with it.

It's that little bit about how Hydaelyn/Venat's followers wanted to "entrust the future" to the new life that made me think that they may not have simply been non-sentient beings and could've included things like the beastmen (Who are strongly implied to be creations in some of the Elpis sidequests).

The fact that the writers completely abandoned that moral dilemma and shifted to something ideological didn't sit that well with me...particularly because it could be interpreted as an excuse to more easily draw sympathizers to the cause then the outlandish-sounding long game she had in mind.

Yes, I think there may have been such creations in the mix - if we think about it with EW in mind, given that she was privy to knowledge from the character (or at least saw them as an example), there may have been the suggestion floated that some of these beings could, in time, turn out to be intelligent life forms, capable of being guided along - however, there's still the question over how convincing such a plan would be in their eyes.

And yes, you could interpret it as an excuse on her part. I think that's what I found most surprising about the Anamnesis Anyder stuff - that there wasn't really any indication of a strong moral dispute as such. Quite the contrary, she grants their motives were good.

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Originally Posted by Tanis_Ebonhart

They had to be sundered because of their arrogance, inability to let go, and desire to never change or accept consequences.

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It's funny, I was speaking with someone just today about having finally completed the Elpis funeral quest and how nice it was to see the excitement in the NPCs at being presented with a new idea that they were very open to embracing and how they were looking forward to changing the way they approached their procedures going forward. How they did exactly what you just claimed they were incapable of doing.

What were they to learn from the literal end of the world? What lessons would you take away from your world ending around you and having no idea what is causing it? What would you have done in your quest to do better when you don't even know what you did wrong, if anything, to begin with? They committed the cardinal sin of wanting their loved ones back when it was possible to get them back? Unforgivable.

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Originally Posted by Lauront

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Interesting. Though even from the text it appears more of a promise that through sacrifice Zodiark would be able to renew the star through the same magics that are seen in Elpis. I wonder what the guarantee was of this plan being successful, and how did they plan on dealing with a Primal on the scale of Zodiark. Plus, would the potential tempering that came with a stronger and stronger Zodiark ruin their plans either way? Not to mention the threat of Meiton was still out there, so even if life was created anew, what would be different given The Song of Oblivion's presence. Mind you this is all moot due to the fact that the world HAD to be sundered for us to exist. I assume the thought process was that the ancients who presumably had not suffered and hoped on a constant basis that their sundered counterparts did would have not been able to stand against Metion, thus falling on us(and Zenos lol, though I actually liked that part).

Emet described what the sundering did in the demonstration with Ryne: "Two individuals, identical in appearance, yet reduced in all respects. Strength, intelligence, the soul itself - all is halved." Externally they may have looked the same, but they were 1/14 the person they used to be and devoid of their memories.

Also, the sacrifices were never the real issue. Based on the LL, Venat always intended to sunder the Ancients because she believed (her personal opinion, not objective truth) that they were incapable of change or of defeating Meteion. She needed both Zodiark and for the star to be restored, which is why she didn't intervene in those sacrifices. The third one didn't matter in regards to her plan. I don't believe it's explicitly stated, but given that Elidibus had exited Zodiark in an attempt to mediate and Hydaelyn chose to sunder Zodiark at that time it may have been a calculated move on her part. I certainly wouldn't put it past her to have orchestrated the divide in society to allow for such an opening, especially given that her followers in Anyder seem oblivious to her true intent and the subsequent consequences of it.

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Originally Posted by Tanis_Ebonhart

The ancients issue is that they couldn't let go. If they had just accepted their losses, learned from it, and strived to be better then they never would have been sundered.

The writing was on the wall. They had to be sundered because of their arrogance, inability to let go, and desire to never change or accept consequences.

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I think such framing is rather deceptive. Venat chose to stand by idly and allow the Final Days to happen. After such inaction, she had very little business trying to enforce the outcome that she wanted to occur. Zodiark was a necessity in order to fix the damage inflicted by the Final Days and the Ancients not wanting their loved ones to be trapped eternally inside of Zodiark is also completely understandable and far from unreasonable.

The Ancients weren't under any obligation to bend over and conform to Venat's wishes when she was operating in bad faith and never intended to speak of her concerns or inform them of Meteion's existence. Blaming the Ancients for not 'moving on' is strange to me as well. As if people are supposed to just allow some random, unhinged individual to allow harm to befall their loved ones and deny them the ability to resolve the situation.

Had the Sundering been an accident and not a deliberate act then Venat might have come out of Endwalker looking better than she does in the eyes of many. Especially if she had been hit by the same mind wipe that affected Hythlodaeus, Hermes and Emet-Selch.

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Originally Posted by Ixon

Interesting. Though even from the text it appears more of a promise that through sacrifice Zodiark would be able to renew the star through the same magics that are seen in Elpis. I wonder what the guarantee was of this plan being successful, and how did they plan on dealing with a Primal on the scale of Zodiark. Plus, would the potential tempering that came with a stronger and stronger Zodiark ruin their plans either way? Not to mention the threat of Meiton was still out there, so even if life was created anew, what would be different given The Song of Oblivion's presence. Mind you this is all moot due to the fact that the world HAD to be sundered for us to exist. I assume the thought process was that the ancients who presumably had not suffered and hoped on a constant basis that their sundered counterparts did would have not been able to stand against Metion, thus falling on us(and Zenos lol, though I actually liked that part).

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On tempering I'd recommend you give this a read. It's ultimately a red herring, AFAIC, and mostly inserted to explain the Ascians 12k years later, because they still need to explain why e.g. Lahabrea and Nabriales acted the way they did, back before they had the SHB plot in mind. But with the primal 1) not summoned via the flawed rites the Ascians taught the beast tribes and 2) lacking a will outside of its controller, beyond perhaps self-defence instincts, it's hard to see what role it'd play, and it's given zero story significance at the time. The conflict divides the Convocation as well (touched upon here if you go to the French localisation of the SoS scene), which pushes against the hivemind interpretation of the issue many have, so provided that they acted as Emet did, and preserved their memories and identities, it may well have never become an issue for them.

Regarding whether Zodiark would succeed at restoring the star, he did succeed at that, as the second stage was a fait accompli, and succeeded in renewing the cycle of life. It's the third one which was not completed, but in all honesty, I see no reason why it would not, as the souls were preserved inside him.

The issue regarding the sundering is she 1) believed they would eventually go on a path similar to the Plenty and 2) were inherently unable to easily manipulate dynamis. 2) is debatable, because the story itself introduces a number of possible workarounds, including no less sundering - just not the entire star or race of beings, but on a more selective basis. There are other possibilities, like deploying familiars or other arcane creations without the design flaws of Meteion, exploring how the suppression field in Ktisis Hyperboreia could enable them to hone dynamis manipulation, etc. Zodiark's shield persevered for a minimum of 12k years, so it would've bought them plenty of time to experiment. 1) is also debatable, because they were not presented with concrete evidence of what was animating her concerns - she constrained what she revealed. I agree with this poster's interpretation of why that belief might've come somewhat a little too easily to her.

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Originally Posted by Rulakir

Emet described what the sundering did in the demonstration with Ryne: "Two individuals, identical in appearance, yet reduced in all respects. Strength, intelligence, the soul itself - all is halved." Externally they may have looked the same, but they were 1/14 the person they used to be and devoid of their memories.

Also, the sacrifices were never the real issue. Based on the LL, Venat always intended to sunder the Ancients because she believed (her personal opinion, not objective truth) that they were incapable of change or of defeating Meteion. She needed both Zodiark and for the star to be restored, which is why she didn't intervene in those sacrifices. The third one didn't matter in regards to her plan. I don't believe it's explicitly stated, but given that Elidibus had exited Zodiark in an attempt to mediate and Hydaelyn chose to sunder Zodiark at that time it may have been a calculated move on her part. I certainly wouldn't put it past her to have orchestrated the divide in society to allow for such an opening, especially given that her followers in Anyder seem oblivious to her true intent and the subsequent consequences of it.

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Agreed - and I believe they may have re-considered that stage until later if presented with good reason to do so - i.e. the evidence about the Plenty and Meteion.

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Originally Posted by Ixon

Meiton was still out there, so even if life was created anew, what would be different given The Song of Oblivion's presence.

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Meteion could literally have her nose pressed up against the Zodiark windshield yelling "hoo hoo!" and she never would have made it past that point.

My stance on the Ancients/Ascians and their plight is summed up well by another poster's signature. "Don't Care. Didn't Ask. Plus you're tempered."

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Originally Posted by PawPaw

Meteion could literally have her nose pressed up against the Zodiark windshield yelling "hoo hoo!" and she never would have made it past that point.

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Yep. Plus if the Ancients were made aware of Meteion's existence...then they could have worked towards finding a solution to the problem. Not only for the sake of their world but all the others that succumbed to Meteion's influence. After all, by withholding the information she had access to Venat is indirectly responsible for the destruction of numerous worlds.

Which makes her decision making process all the more baffling, really. I'm sure we'll soon be subjected to another lecture from Alphinaud about how wrong it is for a character to stand by and do nothing even as other characters suffer. In the usual tone deaf, hypocritical manner where somehow Venat is a 'herois' for doing exactly that.