Healers who rescue pull tanks into mobs.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SpiralMask

(slightly controversial) option since most of the sensible "just literally say something in chat like 'hey i'm pulling big' or 'i'm undergeared/new to this dungeon so i'll start off small'" suggestions have already been made:
if the healer or dps are running off into mobs to either drag the back to you or rescue you to them?
let them die. then say "i'm undergeared/new to this dungeon so i'll start off small" in chat.
you don't actually have to pick the mobs up off of them that they went out of their way to aggro. yeah, if you're in proximity after they die they'll attack/kill you, but at the point has hopefully been made by then.

of course, again, you could also just literally say anything to the rest of the team.

---

Actually, if the DPS draws aggro, and the healer already left their healing ticks on the tank/ has to heal the tank, then the healer will get the aggro regardless whether the healer pulled the mobs or not. So that's actually the tank's responsibility for not taking the aggro, because now the tank endangered the whole party by having the healer potentially dying if the healer has to both heal the tank and themselves. The tank's job is to prevent that from happening regardless, no matter how stupid it sounds. That's basically what the healer does for most of the run anyway - healing avoidable damage because people can't be bothered to do mechanics.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Awha

Not sure if it has been said but tank it you spank mostly was just a thing because aggro management use to be a pain in games like classic WoW or FFXIV. Was far easier to let the person who had aggro die then have the tank pick pick up the aggro after the death.

Aggro management is a non issue in this game. Sure in terms of optimization having the tank pull mobs is more efficient, but let us be real tbe major issues comes down to this aspect of control that stems from being a tank. Whichbis understandable.

---

And if the DPS pulled in Classic WoW the tank would also need to generate 110% of the threat/emnity of the person who pulled first to get aggro, which was almost impossible especially while leveling :P

It's most definitely not the same in modern FFXIV :)

It basically comes down to all 3 roles working together. Even if threat / enmity is easier to handle nowadays, it's not an excuse to make it harder on the other party members than it should be. It is still best to let the tank pull so the enemies can be controlled faster. Some tanks don't mind others pulling. However, please make sure to assist them if it's agreed to let others pull. The tank should try their best to be efficient with their AoEs to get as much hit as possible initially, but a few stray enemies should be dragged to the tank. The tank tries their best not to move the enemies if it's not needed since playing spin the dreidel can kill the damage the melee DPS can do. It makes proper positioning much harder, causes people to chase their targets and may even face cleaves onto the party.

This doesn't mean I am against big pulls though. I can agree it can greatly speed up the run, but only if it's done properly. Insulting tanks making small pulls doesn't miraculously teach them how to pull big. From the responses we got here, it tends to make the person ignore the other instead. This is why many are suggesting to communicate nicely first. There is a much higher chance the person will oblige to the request of pulling bigger if they feel the group will support them through it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kalker

No real hypocrisy happening here. "You pull it, you tank it" is just a straight up awful mentality to have regardless of your views on rescuing a tank into a mob pack.

Both of which are a non issue anyways if you just pull everything in the first place like you're supposed to do.

---

Actually, there's plenty of hypocrisy. Promoting a system where everyone runs in different directions and makes their own pulls isn't efficient; it just makes the tanks life harder.

Pulling more stuff after the group has already assumed the pull is finished, or yanking the tank around with Rescue, just causes confusion and annoyance. It's not helpful.

If you can handle bigger pulls you say so at the start of the dungeon, when you're all sitting in chat just waiting for the dungeon to start anyways. That's optimal. The tank encouraging a style where everyone makes their own pulls by humoring it doesn't help anyone.

If it's an accident you pick it up. Otherwise I think 'you spank it you tank it' is perfectly reasonable.

Edit: Actually, I feel like there's 1 exception. If the healer runs ahead, pulls more mobs and brings them to me I generally don't have a problem with it, because at the end of the day he's only making his life more difficult.

Rescue pulling is completely different, however. That repositions the entire pull, which screws over the DPS and disorients the tank. Only a crap healer would do that.

Now the DPS should NOT be pulling at all. Bigger pulls make the tank and healers life more difficult; so those 2 roles should be deciding the pull sizes based on what they feel they can handle. If a DPS spanks it he should be ready to tank it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Goji1639

Actually, there's plenty of hypocrisy. Promoting a system where everyone runs in different directions and makes their own pulls isn't efficient; it just makes the tanks life harder.

Pulling more stuff after the group has already assumed the pull is finished, or yanking the tank around with Rescue, just causes confusion and annoyance. It's not helpful.

If you can handle bigger pulls you say so at the start of the dungeon, when you're all sitting in chat just waiting for the dungeon to start anyways. That's optimal. The tank encouraging a style where everyone makes their own pulls by humoring it doesn't help anyone.

If it's an accident you pick it up. Otherwise I think 'you spank it you tank it' is perfectly reasonable.

---

the thing is that there is no difference between one pull and pull everything besides hitting a cooldown and needing a bit more heal , so unless your gear or the healers is complete garbage then you got no excuse to not to, its not even stressful ,which is why its quite aggravating to hear the excuse of "its just a different playstyle".

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HeulGDarian

the thing is that there is no difference between one pull and pull everything besides hitting a cooldown and needing a bit more heal , so unless your gear or the healers is complete garbage then you got no excuse to not to, its not even stressful ,which is why its quite aggravating to hear the excuse of "its just a different playstyle".

---

I've seen big pulls fail plenty, and it's usually because of the healer. Not a shot at healers, they just play the most critical role in the success of a wall to wall pull.

If the healer can handle big pulls he should speak up at the beginning and say so. Otherwise the tank has no reason to assume he can.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Goji1639

Actually, there's plenty of hypocrisy. Promoting a system where everyone runs in different directions and makes their own pulls isn't efficient; it just makes the tanks life harder.

Pulling more stuff after the group has already assumed the pull is finished, or yanking the tank around with Rescue, just causes confusion and annoyance. It's not helpful.

If you can handle bigger pulls you say so at the start of the dungeon, when you're all sitting in chat just waiting for the dungeon to start anyways. That's optimal. The tank encouraging a style where everyone makes their own pulls by humoring it doesn't help anyone.

If it's an accident you pick it up. Otherwise I think 'you spank it you tank it' is perfectly reasonable.

Edit: Actually, I feel like there's 1 exception. If the healer runs ahead, pulls more mobs and brings them to me I generally don't have a problem with it, because at the end of the day he's only making his life more difficult.

Rescue pulling is completely different, however. That repositions the entire pull, which screws over the DPS and disorients the tank. Only a crap healer would do that.

Now the DPS should NOT be pulling at all. Bigger pulls make the tank and healers life more difficult; so those 2 roles should be deciding the pull sizes based on what they feel they can handle. If a DPS spanks it he should be ready to tank it.

---

You're quite right actually, making everyone pull is inefficient. Instead the tank should, y'know, do their job and pull everything.

And please, "make the tank's life harder"? How so? Are the extra mobs going to make you break a sweat and press buttons twice as fast? Be it a group or 3, all you have to is press a mitigation button every 15s and spam your two button aoe + gauge spender.

If pulling more mobs makes you melt faster than your healer can heal you, the rest of the party isn't the problem. You are.

And like I said, you can both think that "You pull you tank" is a garbage mentality and that rescue pulling is a mildly rude thing to do.

Obligatory this doesn't apply to sprouts, no I'm not expecting wall to wall pulls in Sastasha, etc, etc.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kalker

You're quite right actually, making everyone pull is inefficient. Instead the tank should, y'know, do their job and pull everything.

And please, "make the tank's life harder"? How so? Are the extra mobs going to make you break a sweat and press buttons twice as fast? Be it a group or 3, all you have to is press a mitigation button every 15s and spam your two button aoe + gauge spender.

If pulling more mobs makes you melt faster than your healer can heal you, the rest of the party isn't the problem. You are.

And like I said, you can both think that "You pull you tank" is a garbage mentality and that rescue pulling is a mildly rude thing to do.

Obligatory this doesn't apply to sprouts, no I'm not expecting wall to wall pulls in Sastasha, etc, etc.

---

It does make the tanks life harder, though. I've seen plenty of instances where a DPS attacks a new group, which goes right after the healer because regen ticks, forcing the tank to chase them down. It's amazing how many people don't have the presence of mind to run mobs to the tank if they take aggro.

"You pull you tank," is a mentality that teaches DPS that they're not supposed to pull. That's useful, because they're NOT SUPPOSED TO PULL.

I've also seen plenty of instances where the tank massive pulls and the healer takes a nice, relaxing, slow walk up to the fight a mile behind him and everyone else, and then proceed to DPS until the tank is nearly dead, and then proceeds to panic spam their weakest, fastest hard cast heal to crappy effect until the tank is dead.

There's no reason to assume a healer can handle big pulls. If you want big pulls you ask for them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Goji1639

It does make the tanks life harder, though. I've seen plenty of instances where a DPS attacks a new group, which goes right after the healer because regen ticks, forcing the tank to chase them down. It's amazing how many people don't have the presence of mind to run mobs to the tank if they take aggro.

---

It really doesn't though. I would know because I leveled all my tanks to 80 by spamming dungeons and it was quite literally never a problem.
All tanks can provoke and all tanks can use ranged attacks (which even has an enmity bonus too).

Quote:

---

"You pull you tank," is a mentality that teaches DPS that they're not supposed to pull. That's useful, because they're NOT SUPPOSED TO PULL.

---

DPS can't pull if you already pulled all the mobs. *taps forehead*

Quote:

---

I've seen plenty of instances where the tank massive pulls and the healers taking a nice, relaxing walk up to the fight a mile behind him and everyone else, and then proceed to DPS until the tank is nearly dead, and then proceed to panic spam their weakest, fastest hard cast heal to crappy effect until the tank is dead.

There's no reason to assume a healer can handle big pulls. If you want big pulls you ask for them.

---

I'm sorry for your healers being bad I guess. Explain them how to use their toolkit or kick them if they don't want to improve I guess.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kalker

It really doesn't though. I would know because I leveled all my tanks to 80 by spamming dungeons and it was quite literally never a problem.
All tanks can provoke and all tanks can use ranged attacks (which even has an enmity bonus too).

---

I said it makes the tanks life harder, which is true. The fact that it can be handled without too much issue is irrelevant; DPS pulling still causes additional, unnecessary problems for the tank to deal with.

Quote:

---

DPS can't pull if you already pulled all the mobs. *taps forehead*

---

If the healer tells me they can handle big pulls I will. If they don't say anything I assume they can't.

Quote:

---

I'm sorry for your healers being bad I guess. Explain them how to use their toolkit or kick them if they don't want to improve I guess.

---

Bad Healers exist, so tanks can't assume every healer is good. If the healer can handle big pulls he needs to say something.