There honestly doesn't need to be a long term reason. As I've said time and time again, there are more benefits than just "Increase number of tank players." Other forms of incentive are what will likely fit that, and it applies to all tanks, not just relying on one job to come in and somehow save the day.Quote:
Originally Posted by EdwinLi
You have a very high expectation as to what you're saying SAM tank must accomplish to be successfull. In the end, it's an option that will entice players who normally don't tank into tanking. It can be a gateway for players to try tanking which in turn can result in them trying other tanks even if they dislike SAM. It's another tank job for career tanks to level through content providing additional queue pops. It's more variety for tanks to allow them to not get bored within their role and give them more options.
All of these things are worth adding it to the game. But apparently if it doesn't fix every problem that plagues the game and the role it's not good enough for you which is something I can't help you with.
Adding it as a DPS will only tilt the already unbalanced issues even further, making DPS queues longer, adding variety to a role that already has over twice the variety the other roles have. Even luring away people from more important roles into the DPS.
Tell me Edwin, what benefits does adding it as a DPS offer? Since you demand perks to adding it as a tank, please list how adding it as a DPS will help the lifespan and health of this game. I'll wait.
SAMURAI SHOWDOWN
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05-10-2016, 08:20 AMShippuu
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05-10-2016, 08:31 AMDWolfwoodOh trust me, I realize it leaves me open for attack by putting out personal information, but personal experience is still a strong argument. This conversation keeps going in circles because the people who hate the idea of a SAM tank, keep bringing up silly arguments like, "it doesn't help queues" or "it brings no variety to tanks," and when they get disproved, we hear things like, "well that's not even important."Quote:
Originally Posted by EdwinLi
It does bring variety to tanks, and it will help queues.
You're right, we don't know exact numbers, nor do we need to. All we need to know are the obvious without lying to ourselves. It does help to have interesting tanks come out so that low level dungeon queues keep popping for new players who need them. At the endgame level, the percentage of players who stick with it will drop, just like every other job. It's also important to remember that there is a point in endgame statics where tanks are no longer needed, and DPS will be sought, but we are not at that point yet in regards to pure melee DPS. One could argue support jobs need help in this department at best.Quote:
Back on topic:
We do not really know how well SAM Tank or a Red Mage Tank will attract, keep, or increase Tank population as people do have different views on things and different desired gameplay styles.
Samurai is not going to outshine PLD, WAR, nor DRK. It's merely going to provide a option for those that aren't playing the one most suited to their tastes at most. What we have right now are 3 options, and there are plenty like myself who will still love other themes more. Just like adding a Samurai DPS isn't going to magically make everyone stop playing Black Mage, Dragoon, etc. It's another silly argument. More variety is good. Not bad.Quote:
They also, as I have said before, must make a new Tank Job not outshine old Tank Jobs or else the game risk causing a old Job to be abandoned by already existing and future Tank job players.
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05-10-2016, 08:58 AMMagiusNecrosThey can start with a magic tank.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shippuu
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05-10-2016, 09:43 AMShippuuPlease go back and read my previous comments on the topic of magic tanks and provide a valid solution to the numerous issues that arise when dealing with a "magic" tank that don't include a tremendous amount of additional time/money from the development team or be an absolute nightmare to balance. Even then, considering over half the magic classes in the game are healers, you ideally don't want to lure them from their role.Quote:
Originally Posted by MagiusNecros
But to sum up the issues:
-Itemization, how are they going to handle gear?
-Casting, they cannot stand still and cast, tanks must be mobile, especially for content like PvP
-Iconic jobs that fit the idea of tanking that are also widely requested/popular
-How this concept is more popular (And thus a safer bet) than a requested job (SAM) that is brought up every week.
-How is this job going to be balanced? With wild concepts for abilities comes exponentially more difficulty when balancing
Different =/= better. Saying "add a magic tank" is not a solution with thought-out and reasonable/practical expectations. -
05-10-2016, 09:49 AMEdwinLiYou're treating this as if I don't want any Tank Job to be released for 4.0 but as I stated I believe SAM may be better as a DPS because it offers the chance for the job to be more focused on the sword skills rather than the waiting to be hit and counter aspect of the SAM and it may be better for Red Mage to be a Tank Job since as a Tank they can utilize both White Magic for defensive tank abilities and Black Magic for offensive damage and aggro abilities.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shippuu
The Samurai used different sword styles for their combat each providing different offensive and defensive combat attacks but mostly focused on causing damage. There the Muso Jikiden Eishin-ryu which people remember easily as the sword drawing attack, Ono-ha Itto-ryu which focus on striking down a enemy with one power slash from the sword, Jigen-ryu which focused on a power fist attack to strike their enemy down while using a sword stance that is held vertically to cover the weak spot of the combat stance, Yagyu Shinkage-ryu which focused on disarming rather than killing, and Tamiya-ryu which is the sword high stance combat style focused on distracting enemies from their foot movement with having their sword being put up high. I felt that Samurai would be suited for DPS because then it can utilize these combat styles into the gameplay as these Samurai Combat styles focused more towards causing damage.
I am not trying to be rude but you're acting as if SAM as a Tank Job is the only solution to the Tank Population issue which is a false belief since we alone can not speak for what everyone feels about this topic but only what we believe alone. -
05-10-2016, 10:09 AMShippuu
You still didn't answer my question Edwin. I'll repeat it for you:
I'm not asking for thematic ideas or real-world analogues. I'm asking for tangible benefits to the game if SAM is a dps, as you demanded of tank SAM.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shippuu
So you'd take away one of their more iconic capabilities just so they can simply just do damage? Countering is a large part of Samurai across multiple Final Fantasy titles, as is abilities that debuff enemies and plenty of supportive buffs. Red Mage can utilize white magic and black magic and sword skills as a DPS, as well as not creating a whole new itemization issue in the process.Quote:
Originally Posted by EdwinLi
Funny, as it is the tanks in the game that have definitive stances that would fit with these "style changes". But that's beside the point. Please tell me which Final Fantasy Samurai portrayed them with these stance changing concepts? You're bringing in real world analogues and we've already established that creating the "Final Fantasy feel" is a priority when making new jobs, as quoted directly from Yoshi-P. It doesn't matter what moves or styles Samurai used in real life, what matters is their portrayal in prior Final Fantasy games. And in no Final Fantasy game have they made any mention nor emphasis towards any of these styles.Quote:
Originally Posted by EdwinLi
No, I'm acting as if SAM as a tank job is the most obvious and easy choice to include as the next tank. No where have I said it will solve every problem, only that it will help more than it'd ever hurt.Quote:
Originally Posted by EdwinLi
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05-10-2016, 10:16 AMEdwinLi
Then I guess we have to just agree to disagree as our own belief clash with each other.
Though I guess this discussion should have ended a month ago since Yoshi-P already announced this Year SE will be revealing information about all the Jobs in 4.0 in a event if I remember correctly. So any theories, hypothesis, assumption, and etc will be debunked or confirmed this Summer or Fall. -
05-10-2016, 10:21 AMDWolfwoodWhat tank revolves around "waiting to be hit?" in regards to their DPS. Literally one attack out of all three tanks, Reprisal. Tanks don't just sit there and wait to be hit to do something surprisingly. Tanks actually have DPS and attacks.Quote:
Originally Posted by EdwinLi
If you seriously want to argue this, you're best off just making a thread about how much you want a RDM tank. It can work, but it offers next to nothing that is new in itself. Even the write up on his version of a RDM tank that ShinMetsu linked is almost entirely regurgitated PLD/DRK moves. The only thing "new" is the swiftcast aspect which is essentially WAR's stack mechanic but without the need to build up to 5.Quote:
...it may be better for Red Mage to be a Tank Job since as a Tank they can utilize both White Magic for defensive tank abilities and Black Magic for offensive damage and aggro abilities.
It's going to take a lot of work, and the only people it truly caters to are the people who want to tank sometimes while still playing their Caster-main job so they don't have to gear up an extra job. Like I keep saying, PLD and DRK both are jobs that involve magic, one for white and one for black. Why is the idea of supporting more spells for PLD/DRK lost on you? It's far better in my opinion to strengthen their images rather than leave them the same just to squeeze RDM in between.
If Samurai cared mostly about damage, they would have embraced the rifle. Instead, they resented it and rebelled against it.Quote:
The Samurai used different sword styles for their combat each providing different offensive and defensive combat attacks but mostly focused on causing damage.
I'm not sure if you're joking here, or perhaps just frantically searching google for things that might support your argument. First of all, "ryu" means school. So everything you listed are schools of training, not stances or techniques.Quote:
There the Muso Jikiden Eishin-ryu which people remember easily as the sword drawing attack, Ono-ha Itto-ryu which focus on striking down a enemy with one power slash from the sword, Jigen-ryu which focused on a power fist attack to strike their enemy down while using a sword stance that is held vtertically to cover the weak spot of the combat stance, Yagyu Shinkage-ryu which focused on disarming rather than killing, and Tamiya-ryu which is the sword high stance combat style focused on distracting enemies from their foot movement with having their sword being put up high.
Secondly, a lot of the "stances" and "techniques" you are actually referring to are done with the weapon sheathed. How is this going to work, regardless if it's a DPS or Tank? Even as a DPS, I wouldn't expect, nor even want a focus on this. Maybe 1 move at best, similar to a Mercy Stroke but at the start of combat.
If you want to get into the rest, distracting the enemy and debuffing it (because sorry, but an instant one-hit kill isn't going to work in this game) work just as well, if not better from the tank perspective.
What you should really just say is you want to see more offensive samurai themed OGCDs than defensive, because that's really all you got there. There's no real justification when part of samurai training was disarming and deflecting, and carrying on despite suffering wounds was an integral part of the samurai image.Quote:
I felt that Samurai would be suited for DPS because then it can utilize these combat styles into the gameplay as these Samurai Combat styles focused more towards causing damage.
Basically, don't even try to go into this subject saying that a DPS will prevail, unless you intend for Samurai to be a ranged class, but that brings a whole new can of worms. Stick with "I want SAM as a DPS/Tank/Both" because that's what Yoshida and his team want to hear, not easily deflated arguments.
The reason why it gets discussed like this is because of the absurd claims that some are making as to why it shouldn't be a Tank.Quote:
I am not trying to be rude but you're acting as if SAM as a Tank Job is the only solution to the Tank Population issue which is a false belief since we alone can not speak for what everyone feels about this topic but only what we believe alone.
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05-10-2016, 10:49 AMMagiusNecrosSo you want them to try but also want them to not try?Quote:
Originally Posted by Shippuu
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05-10-2016, 11:41 AMAlacran
For those who believe the idea of the Assassin Samurai. This is 2/21 (chosen for their relevance to the depiction of the Samurai role in his society and to the fantasy we as fans attribute to Samurai today) from "The way of self-Reliance" or "The Way of Walking Alone" penned by a Samurai of some renown, mentioned earlier here in this thread, Shinmen Musashi
"While on the Way, do not begrudge death."
"Though you give up your life, do not give up your honor."
Many people talk about game balance, population statistics, and gear itemization, and those are valid and real concerns (I myself have done so). However I have also in this thread and others tried to present what i feel is a simple truth, Priest in history and fantasy are not known for wanton slaughter, Knights were not heralded for their miracles healing of the injured or sick. If any need an example of a Samurai Tank just look up "Standing Death of Benkei".
All of these classes/ jobs are based in history/ fantasy to some extent. The idea of out right ignoring actual real life accounts of heroism the likes of which were epic in scale is just plain ignorant.