SAM out classing all other DPS

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Originally Posted by Draven

At what point have I said I don't agree they should have good dps? Not once did I say nerf them here. I said...you know what, fk it. This is ridiculous.

"You're here, so I'd say yes." right back at you.

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No, you just started arguing semantics with people about dps having "rights" to deal good dps. No one was implying that Samurai should be the best overall DPS class, but that should have the best personal DPS because they bring nothing else.

You bring their DPS down to match other classes and they're suddenly the most useless DPS class because they bring nothing else to the table.

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Originally Posted by Ryaz

No, you just started arguing semantics with people about dps having "rights" to deal good dps. No one was implying that Samurai should be the best overall DPS class, but that should have the best personal DPS because they bring nothing else.

You bring their DPS down to match other classes and they're suddenly the most useless DPS class because they bring nothing else to the table.

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some one who understand the logic of utility and no utility

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Originally Posted by Ryaz

No, you just started arguing semantics with people about dps having "rights" to deal good dps.

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Uh huh...except she didn't say good dps, she said

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Originally Posted by Lelila38

by all rights it should be strongest. Personally I'd like Sam still to be on top

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Why are you defending someone who's bias says that SAM should be the most powerful dps of any out there? Probably because you're bias as well with your lvl 70 SAM. You blatantly ignored her saying that as you claimed previously that no one is saying that, and then still refer to her in your latest reply.

It's not semantics, it's what is being said by her and others around here, and it's complete BS. There are no "rights" to being top dps.

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Originally Posted by Draven

Uh huh...except she didn't say good dps, she said Why are you defending someone who's bias says that SAM should be the most powerful dps of any out there? Probably because you're bias as well with your lvl 70 SAM. You blatantly ignored her saying that as you claimed previously that no one is saying that, and then still refer to her in your latest reply.

It's not semantics, it's what is being said by her and others around here, and it's complete BS. There are no "rights" to being top dps.

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because they offer no utility :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: which is why they have to be the highest dps or they won't even make the cut to be in the raid and by i say highest they have to be higher then 300 to 400 dps then everyone else or they need a buff :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Draven

Uh huh...except she didn't say good dps, she said Why are you defending someone who's bias says that SAM should be the most powerful dps of any out there? Probably because you're bias as well with your lvl 70 SAM. You blatantly ignored her saying that as you claimed previously that no one is saying that, and then still refer to her in your latest reply.

It's not semantics, it's what is being said by her and others around here, and it's complete BS. There are no "rights" to being top dps.

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I read strongest DPS as highest number wise, not highest overall, synergy factored in. Obviously, if she meant stronger than all the others even with their synergy, that's wrong.

Edit: Though, looking back, the same person you're quoting clarified in a later post that she meant strongest personal dps. And even said the dps should be equal to MNK + Brotherhood and Ninja + TA, not greater than them.

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Originally Posted by Janhyua

because they offer no utility :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: which is why they have to be the highest dps or they won't even make the cut to be in the raid and by i say highest they have to be higher then 300 to 400 dps then everyone else or they need a buff :rolleyes:

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Oh boy! More people who put words in my mouth, think I don't get their point, assume what I'm saying to someone else, and are cheerleading for SAMs!!

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

As a BLM I find the reasoning SE's provided to be hilarious, raid utility? The only utility BLMs possessed was given to all casters in 4.0 and until SE decides to make more raids where AoE is a factor having the highest the highest AoE DPS is useless.

Let's be honest here, SE wants people to play the new classes, it is literally required in order to be considered a good return on the investment of creating these classes. If no one played the new classes because BLM and Monk/NIN did more dmg than this would mean that the investment in creating these new classes was useless.

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Originally Posted by Dortharl

As a BLM I find the reasoning SE's provided to be hilarious, raid utility? The only utility BLMs possessed was given to all casters in 4.0 and until SE decides to make more raids where AoE is a factor having the highest the highest AoE DPS is useless.

Let's be honest here, SE wants people to play the new classes, it is literally required in order to be considered a good return on the investment of creating these classes. If no one played the new classes because BLM and Monk/NIN did more dmg than this would mean that the investment in creating these new classes was useless.

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Only because the current (faceroll) extreme trials don't include an add phase, that doesn't mean that we won't have one or more in future content. In fact, add phases are standard. Just give blm that add phase and it will probably top the dps rankings.

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Originally Posted by Dortharl

As a BLM I find the reasoning SE's provided to be hilarious, raid utility? The only utility BLMs possessed was given to all casters in 4.0 and until SE decides to make more raids where AoE is a factor having the highest the highest AoE DPS is useless.

Let's be honest here, SE wants people to play the new classes, it is literally required in order to be considered a good return on the investment of creating these classes. If no one played the new classes because BLM and Monk/NIN did more dmg than this would mean that the investment in creating these new classes was useless.

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I agree BLM needs some help, along with smn, drg and mch.

But looking at parses for ex trials (80%), SAM is only a 200-250 dps ahead of MNK and NIN, which isn't too bad. About 7%. I'd prefer to see that gap more around 5%.

RDMs do a LOT of damage for the utility they provide and BLMs should be much higher on the charts than they are now. They're about 100 DPS behind, which is inexcusable given their lack of utility. It also doesn't help that both extreme fights AND the current raid tier have no real add phases.

DRG needs a lot of love. We're looking at a 14% difference between them and Samurai, and still about 7-8% with the other two melee. That's just too extreme.

MCH and BRD are neck and neck dps-wise, with MCH being slightly lower, but MCH is more complicated to play and doesn't bring as much utility.

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Originally Posted by Lastelli

Only because the current (faceroll) extreme trials don't include an add phase, that doesn't mean that we won't have one or more in future content. In fact, add phases are standard. Just give blm that add phase and it will probably top the dps rankings.

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Even then, add phases are what- 1% of the fight?
A12S the adds melted in (literally) 10 seconds over a 9 minute fight. Sephirot, they lasted 20. Sophia you couldn't even aoe them because of the Paladin. Same for Thordan. A6S had those nice adds that you had to melt in less than 6 seconds (which is how long the tank's immunity lasted) or LB them.
Add phases virtually don't matter in most raids. There's like... A9S I guess... but it's not like taking a few more seconds would wipe you in that joke fight.

I mean, they can't matter, right, or else you'd need to bring a BLM/SMN to melt them down.

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Originally Posted by Nominous

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I'm pretty sure this is intended to be a balancing discussion, and not a min/max thread.
I mean, all that you said is true and further corroborates my point.
NIN has been for years the most overpowered, overcentralising dps job.
It's the AST of dps, except it's beating out its competitors on a role where the options/slots ratio is way bigger than for the case of healers (9/4, so over 2 for dps, vs 3/2 for healers).
If a job is so broken that none of the other 8 jobs can possibly replace what it brings, then that's something we should look into, imho.
Has NIN ever not been meta? The utility is absurd (not just TA, the aggro tools are pretty great too) and the personal dps has always been high up there.
It's like an automatic slot for years and it's not looked into xD

Sure, we can let it stay this way and now balance the other 8 dps for the remaining 3 slots. But I don't feel like this is very fair.
I wish they reworked SMN's Titan to get a 5% raid dps boost every 30 seconds or something (or 15% every two minutes). Now there's a melee trick attacker and a caster trick attacker, with slight differences, and NIN loses it's guaranteed spot, and SMN becomes desirable, and SAM's utility can finally be actually useful. At least, personally, I'd rather see it like this. No job should be an auto-include, especially for this long.