ARR Gil Cap Reduction

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

Are you really that dense or do you not understand how even by selling for less you make a solid profit. I wasn't even suggesting people should or would try to cheat Gil out of players but providing an example of how sellers wouldn't be losing Gil by lowering their prices to 100k

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This is what you were arguing against sir:

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Originally Posted by Punainen

Its slightly more complicated than that. As that makes it so anything that used to cost, say... 100 gil, if still listed at 100 gil, is a 90% increase in price. The problem lies in the fact that, those used to the current pricing will NOT begin charging 90% less for all their items. An item that sells in the MW for 10k, is NOT going to drop to 1k. It will remain at 10k. So beyond NPC values (which hold extremely little control over the economy), all they're really doing is making everyone poorer.

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This is what you said after the fact:

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

Oh, this just came to mind so I apologize in advance for the double post, but consider the following little brain-teaser:

If you buy something for 500k on the market on November 1st before the Final Save maintenance for the current version and manage to sell this very same item for only 100k in ARR, you will have made a 50% ROI (Return on Investment).

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See the similarity? I rest my case.

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

Lowering only the cap can result in gil being removed from the game. A global reduction of 1 digit will not result in any "gil" being taken away from the game.

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No, but it will virtually guarantee a massive outburst of rage from the majority of the player base. No gamers, least of all MMO gamers, likes to see their wallet number shrink to 1/10th of what it was, regardless of its actual value. SE would have to be completely retarded to do this, it's about as bad a PR move as they come.

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

Eh... on that note, I'm pretty much done here. I'll just sit tight and wait for either the official translated video or a rep to clear it up. Once you all realize they are in fact performing a re-denomination and lowering all gil values by a factor of 10 I'm sure more people who can't grasp how that will work will get to posting then.

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Will you also be willing to shove your foot into your mouth and post the pics if it turn out SE isn't adjusting player's money after all?

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Originally Posted by Takeshi_Eiketsu

This is what you were arguing against sir:



This is what you said after the fact:



See the similarity? I rest my case.

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Uhm... if you mean the bit about making an obnoxious profit if you don't change the price... no shit. That's why I elaborated in my posts as to how people would not buy things priced with their old values once they have 90% less gil in their pockets. Thus people selling would be forced to drop prices. All it takes is for 1 person to start lowering prices significantly and then the now overly fluffed market prices will dwindle way down.

Is it really that difficult to see? Oh, well. Maybe some of you will finally get it once it happens.

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Originally Posted by Aenarion

No, but it will virtually guarantee a massive outburst of rage from the majority of the player base. No gamers, least of all MMO gamers, likes to see their wallet number shrink to 1/10th of what it was, regardless of its actual value. SE would have to be completely retarded to do this, it's about as bad a PR move as they come.

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Actually that shows how you don't understand what a re-denomination is. If you are thinking of it as losing wealth, then you're mistaken. Essentially you're exchanging 1 currency for the other. 1.xx gil for ARR gil. And the exchange rate is 1 ARR gil = 10 1.XX gil.

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Will you also be willing to shove your foot into your mouth and post the pics if it turn out SE isn't adjusting player's money after all?

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I will publicly announce my insolence. How about you? How sure are you? I'd suggest you look into how re-denomination works.

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Originally Posted by Xenor

Seriously? I was making 50mil a month when crab bows and jade crooks were cool.

Admittedly it has become a lot harder to make money since then and I've barely had a retainer in a ward this year because I just can't be bothered with it any more, so I can see why a new player would hold the opinion you have.

These days gil is mainly made through selling lots of small value items rather than high value items like +3 weapons. Sure the relic double melded weapons are expensive, but chances are if you're making those you're buying the materia so the profit is very low. It's just too time consuming to farm the right materia due to the RNG.

But just the other week I made over 22mil just exchanging my guildmarks. Money for literally nothing. I bet most people exchanged theirs without even thinking how to get the most money per mark.

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Ugh. I am not a new player. I just don't see the point in having more money than that. At a certain point, just knowing that I can generate gil when I need to is good enough. There is nothing to spend it on anyway.

You know, I don't care if they do either one of the things being debated here. Go on ahead, SE. I'm gonna put on some shades and ride my Goobbue. Done with this thread!

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

Actually that shows how you don't understand what a re-denomination is. If you are thinking of it as losing wealth, then you're mistaken. Essentially you're exchanging 1 currency for the other. 1.xx gil for ARR gil. And the exchange rate is 1 ARR gil = 10 1.XX gil.



I will publicly announce my insolence. How about you? How sure are you? I'd suggest you look into how re-denomination works.

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Actually, that just shows you don't have much reading comprehension skills either. I was speaking specifically to the playerbase's PERCEPTION of the change, not the actual mechanic of the change, as seen in the statement "...regardless of its actual value".

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Originally Posted by Aenarion

Actually, that just shows you don't have much reading comprehension skills either. I was speaking specifically to the playerbase's PERCEPTION of the change, not the actual mechanic of the change, as seen in the statement "...regardless of its actual value".

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Perhaps you over-estimate this amount of "rage" the players will put forth. If it came to that, it'd be more a result of SE not properly explaining the change in currency in advance, not the actual change itself.

I wasn't aware we had gotten past whether they will do that or not, and now had moved onto discussing playerbase reaction. Now THAT is something we have plenty of experience on in FFXIV. I believe someone had even made a sig out of it.

1. SE vaguely announces a change.
2. Players go apeshit on the forums.
3. Players experience the change in game.
4. Everything is just peachy.

P.S: The "you" in my previous post wasn't necessarily referring to you alone but anyone who perceives a redenomination as a loss of wealth.

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Originally Posted by Raikki

http://i.imgur.com/uWrwY.jpg

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from 1924
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...ldschein-2.jpg

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

A 90% reduction to the currency as a whole is not "taking gil away." It is a measure against overly-inflated values.

Nobody loses wealth, the way their wealth is numerically represented is changed.

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I'm sorry, but I beg to differ. This would be true if players ONLY bought things from npc at npc prices.

If I have 5 million gil in 1.0 and then I go into 2.0 and now I suddenly have 500k. You must be some kind of gullible to expect that people are going to be putting new gear/triple melded gear/whatever up on markets for 500k or less. Players who put gear up for 2mil gil on markets in 1.0 are not going to put that same piece of gear up on 2.0 markets for 200k. It's still going to go up for 1-2mil. But unless you had 10-20mil in 1.0, this once affordable item is now WAY out of your price range.

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Originally Posted by Resheph

Ugh. I am not a new player. I just don't see the point in having more money than that. At a certain point, just knowing that I can generate gil when I need to is good enough. There is nothing to spend it on anyway.

You know, I don't care if they do either one of the things being debated here. Go on ahead, SE. I'm gonna put on some shades and ride my Goobbue. Done with this thread!

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Just because there currently isn't a need to have hundreds of millions doesn't mean there won't be a need in the future. If I was one of those players who wanted all 7 relic weapons I'd be looking at spending at least 150 million on that process. All that would filter down to the less well off players. The housing in V2 will also be costly. What else will they add that is costly?

And anyway I made my fortune at a time when I was able to play all day every day. I have a job now and don't have time to make tonnes of gil like that. I am set for the future. Making gil as you need it isn't always the best solution. I like to plan ahead.

I don't think this is anything to worry about. If they redenominate then everyone stays the same. If they're simply lowering the max digit then sure some rich players will lose money, those currently not playing who don't hear about the change in time, but the rest of us will move gil between characters. That in effect makes me richer, because those people who get unlucky with it will be taking gil out the system.

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

Sellers notice that nothing is selling like it used to at the old prices and repeatedly drop prices until things sell. Technically they wouldn't be losing any profit at all until they go below 10% of the previous sale price. This means they won't have any trouble dropping prices by large values at a very quick rate. Even the most stubborn of them will be forced to.

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Because this is exactly what happened with class only armor/weapons, triple melds selling for 10mil+, giantsgall weapons, sellable militia gear, explorer's jewelry, etc... NOT. None of these pieces have dropped drastically in price just because no one is buying them. Players want their money. You either pay up the 6mil+ or you're not buying my Militia Bracelets. They can stay in wards til Judgement Day but I'm not going to drop them down to 600k.


EDIT: Also, I'm going to go out on a limb here and say he didn't have 71.8mil in 1.0.

6mil for Militia Bracelets? They're 25mil now on Sargatanas as of like, 2 days ago or something. ;/

12-15mil on Masamune currently, but all Transaction History prices are still averaging about 6mil.

I wished the made us start from 0 gil.

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Originally Posted by Rokien

I wished the made us start from 0 gil.

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I've a better idea. Let's remove everyone's relics and darklight gear instead.

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Originally Posted by Xenor

I've a better idea. Let's remove everyone's relics and darklight gear instead.

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I have lots of gil, gil is easily replaced. I don't see a problem with taking away everyones gil.

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Originally Posted by Rokien

I have lots of gil, gil is easily replaced. I don't see a problem with taking away everyones gil.

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Gil = time. You might have lots of time to replace your gil but some of us don't.
Relics/Darklight = time too so if there's an argument for removing gil there's an argument for removing everything in your inventory down to the last fire shard.
Both are equally retarded arguments and SE would never do such a thing.

It'll be the same as the inventory items we keep on our characters past 100, the gil will be moved to an NPC (most likely delivery moogle) for us to collect.

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Originally Posted by Xenor

Just because there currently isn't a need to have hundreds of millions doesn't mean there won't be a need in the future. If I was one of those players who wanted all 7 relic weapons I'd be looking at spending at least 150 million on that process. All that would filter down to the less well off players. The housing in V2 will also be costly. What else will they add that is costly?

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how do you figure that money on relics are filtering down to less well off players? do you really think that people that are farming mats and making the relics and double melding them and selling extras off in the wards are poor?

who do you think is getting the benefits of people buying the double melded relics off the wards? it's people that are already rich and the people buying from them are just making them richer.

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Originally Posted by Rokien

I wished the made us start from 0 gil.

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Lol This is why no one listens to you, Rokien.

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Originally Posted by Xenor

Gil = time. You might have lots of time to replace your gil but some of us don't.
Relics/Darklight = time too so if there's an argument for removing gil there's an argument for removing everything in your inventory down to the last fire shard.
Both are equally retarded arguments and SE would never do such a thing.

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I'm actually at work and other places more than I'm at home... soooooo.... ya.

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Originally Posted by Sounsyy

I'm sorry, but I beg to differ. This would be true if players ONLY bought things from npc at npc prices.

If I have 5 million gil in 1.0 and then I go into 2.0 and now I suddenly have 500k. You must be some kind of gullible to expect that people are going to be putting new gear/triple melded gear/whatever up on markets for 500k or less. Players who put gear up for 2mil gil on markets in 1.0 are not going to put that same piece of gear up on 2.0 markets for 200k. It's still going to go up for 1-2mil. But unless you had 10-20mil in 1.0, this once affordable item is now WAY out of your price range.

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Ah. And you, sir, also seem to fail at understanding how redenomination works. You see, once they do this in 2.0 putting up an item that used to be up for 1m up for 100k will be the same. Anyone who understands this will not want to pay a dime more. Also any sellers who understand this will likely drop the price of something that was 1m before to something like 300-500k just to attempt to trick the geniuses who think they're getting lucky by buying those when in actuality they're being ripped off. Even that will last maybe a week or 2 before people catch on.

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Originally Posted by Sounsyy

Because this is exactly what happened with class only armor/weapons, triple melds selling for 10mil+, giantsgall weapons, sellable militia gear, explorer's jewelry, etc... NOT. None of these pieces have dropped drastically in price just because no one is buying them. Players want their money. You either pay up the 6mil+ or you're not buying my Militia Bracelets. They can stay in wards til Judgement Day but I'm not going to drop them down to 600k.


EDIT: Also, I'm going to go out on a limb here and say he didn't have 71.8mil in 1.0.

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I'm sorry... did a redenomination occur before now in XIV? Oh it didn't? Ok then... cool story bro.

Comparing basic supply/demand price changes with what would happen in a redenomination shows how lost you are. I urge you to educate yourself on what redenomination means.

Anyone who knows how it works will immediately drop their prices on say... the militia bracelets to something close to 600k because they understand that 600k is the new 6mil. When people start dropping you can keep yours up for 6mil until Skynet starts bombing the world if you'd like... nobody will care.

Regardless of what was meant by redenomination.

The timing of this announcement stinks.

Isn't it strange that they wait untill the end of continuous billing...

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"Character data and progress for players already playing the PC version will also be preserved"

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You could almost call it false advertising. I'm sure there are many who would have thought twice about subscribing had they known this was going to happen.

Well redenomination doesn't remove wealth or progress but rather redefines it. Therefore they haven't lied.

On the other hand if they keep the current denomination of gil and only lower the cap to below 100m they risk violating that promise for anyone who is unable to distribute any extra wealth.

You are kidding yourself if you think that lowering npc prices in ARR will make things cheaper on the market wards/auction.

For this to work they would need to make all game items available for purchase from npc shops.

Supply and demand will always reflect in the market price otherwise. So in effect it is a reduction in wealth.

Sigh...

I honestly wish they would just rename it as realm gil or something easier and say how everyone's gil will be exchanged to it at a rate of 1 realm gil = 10 gil.

This way even the most stubborn of us can comprehend it.

Then after about a month they can just revert the name back to gil without changing anything else.

So many of you seem to misunderstand that after this redenomination putting something that used to be up for 1m at 100k will result in the SAME PROFIT.

If you don't understand how that works, then you need to learn what redenomination means and how it works. Many countries have done this.

That is why I say the few who understand how it works will have absolutely no trouble putting things up for 10% of what they used to be because anything greater is a rip off.

Also I never said people would lower prices in the wards BECAUSE of the NPC prices being lowered.

If anything it's more accurate to say that people will lower market wards prices because everyone's 1 gil will be worth 10x what it used to be.

/gath

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So now you resort to insulting my intelligence because you can't validate your arguement.

You have a wooden head.

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Originally Posted by Sev

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So now you result to insulting my intelligence because you can't validate your arguement.

You have a wooden head.

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Wai... what.. LOL.

Oh please... tell me. Where did I insult YOUR intelligence?

I'm here trying to help people understand how redenomination works. I mean if you want to stop discussing then that's fine, no need to falsely accuse me to make yourself feel better.

One side benefit of dividing by 10 (and NOT introducing decimals) is that it will be more expensive to undercut. If I am selling shards today for 100 gil someone can put their shards up at 99 and undercut me but only "lose" 1%. In the new system I would be selling at 10 and the person undercutting would have to go to 9, "losing" 10%.

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Originally Posted by Fear

It'll be the same as the inventory items we keep on our characters past 100, the gil will be moved to an NPC (most likely delivery moogle) for us to collect.

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lol, now that would be hilarious!

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

Oh please... tell me. Where did I insult YOUR intelligence?

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I want to talk to the organ grinder not the monkey.

Devs need to stop lurking and post a response.

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Originally Posted by Sev

I want to talk to the organ grinder not the monkey.

Devs need to stop lurking and post a response.

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And apparently I'm the one insulting people.

Believe me, I'm looking forward to the devs/reps clarifying further just as much as everyone else.

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

Making 10x less gil as opposed to before is not the same as it being more difficult to make gil if the new gil value is a re-denomination of the old one. Difficulty in making gil would be based on how many avenues one has to earn gil and the relationship between how much NPCs sell for vs how much an average player makes. Both of those things will be remaining the same.

You're really caught on this idea that you need to get back into the millions to feel rich, whereas being the hundreds of thousands will be considered very well off.

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You're talking like everyone will follow the redenomination move like robots once the measure is in place. For things to work like you say, we'd have to play a solo game with only NPC in the game.

Where did I say I needed to get back the millions the redenomination eat to feel rich? Don't make things up please. I'm saying that redenomination won't have the psychological effect SE intended when it happen.

You're the one stuck up with the idea that redenomination will work forgetting in the process all the negative points that invalid your argument. Here's another side effect redenomination will have; new players won't have much in their gil bank and will think they're poor, they'll overprice the items they sell at the ah and after a floating period everything will be at the price it was in v1.0. Everyone will hit the cap sooner than in v1.0, they will start to not care much about the selling/buying price and prices will explode even more.

I suppose we both have our predictions of how this redenomination will play out in the market. At this point I'm officially tired of trying.

As it has been with every other change that hit this game, we'll just see what happens. However I don't want to discuss this any further I feel like I've said everything I had to say. Oh, and I won't make some accusation against any of you to cover myself as I leave either lol

Yoshi has a long post up about the gil redenomination (in Japanese obviously):
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...034#post831034

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Originally Posted by Raikki

Yoshi has a long post up about the gil redenomination (in Japanese obviously):
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...034#post831034

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Obviously the gil in your Char will be cut by 1/10 e.g u have 23M in 2.0 u will have 2.3M so pretty much spend ur gil on w/e if u like gamble however yoshi says dont do that in his post

There's no gamble involved. This is just removing the pennies from the economy so every can keep on dealing how they did before just without so many zero's. they were needless!

Everything and Everyone will get the exact same reduction. People who were 10x richer will STILL be 10x richer, the gil they earned is still worth the same. I dont understand how nobody could NOT understand this from Noctis' posts.

You gotta love when Yoshi P comes in and confirms what you've been saying. Hopefully he'll do a better job than me in helping you guys realize it isn't in fact a gil cut.