Seems like alot of people want this game to become Free 2 Play. >.>

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Originally Posted by Starlord

I never said that now did I? and I said "All" MMOs, I didn't "Generalize" like that's the word of the day or something :p.

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You implied that if a game has a sub, it's good enough to get a high population.

This very game, that we're on the forums for tosses that idea aside.

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Originally Posted by Keisuna

I'm not saying F2P models can't be done right given a game where it fits with the game mechanics, I'm just saying that it's not the end-all-be-all of MMO payment methods, and I don't see it becoming so in the future.

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I would have agreed with you maybe 6 months ago, but now we have behemoths in the games industry discussing F2P options as the only way forward. E3 highlighted the sheer amount of F2P games coming out and their popularity. Things like League of Legends are making a killing and this is obviously appealing to a business intent on making money.

The decline of subscriptions for subbed games is a wake up call for many. I was surprised at just how quickly SWTOR lost millions of players. If it was F2P from the start, then it would have had more people willing to stick with it, without the loss of money.

I'm not going to continue arguing with folks though. Everyone is entitled to their opinions, I do dislike people making sweeping generalisations of a game based on one bad experience with another game however.

I'm not for Pay to Win, but anything that is enjoyable and polished will always be worth a look from myself regardless of pay structure.

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Originally Posted by Ingolf

You implied that if a game has a sub, it's good enough to get a high population.

This very game, that we're on the forums for tosses that idea aside.

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"General rule of thumb for ALL MMOs ( P2P, B2P, F2P): If the game is good enough for the Monthly Fee/Cost of Items for F2P/ And the game itself. The game will get a good population."

Yeah I implied it alright.. "ALL" "P2P, B2P, F2P"

/shrug

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Originally Posted by Ingolf

You implied that if a game has a sub, it's good enough to get a high population.

This very game, that we're on the forums for tosses that idea aside.

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No, he said that if the game is good enough as a game, it will have a good and active population whether it's free to play or not.

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Originally Posted by A5ko

I fail to see how genre makes a difference when pointing out just how good F2P games can be. I was merely stating that F2P are now triple A titles. This seems to upset folk who truly believe every free game is exactly the same. Funny how the latest 'big sub based MMOs' have all but fallen to dust or F2P.

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and why do all these new MMO's fall to dust or go F2P (Rift and Aion for example), simple, they did'nt have the fan base to support them from the start. games like WoW and FF have a big loyal fan base to support them. I have been playing FF games now for around 20 years give or take a few months and i am not about to stop because of a monthly charge i hardly noticed going out of my bank account.

You make some fair points but you wont change my mind. and hey if XIV go's F2P i wont stop playing either.

my point is i don't care if i pay or not but i am more than happy to pay as i enjoy the game

Ingolf doesn't get it! Dunno why he reminds me of Gramul... xD

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Originally Posted by Seirra_Lanzce

Ingolf doesn't get it! Dunno why he reminds me of Gramul... xD

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He just knows he has lost his argument, so hes clutching at straws rather than accept defeat like a man.

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Originally Posted by Kurai

and why do all these new MMO's fall to dust or go F2P (Rift and Aion for example), simple, they did'nt have the fan base to support them from the start. games like WoW and FF have a big loyal fan base to support them. I have been playing FF games now for around 20 years give or take a few months and i am not about to stop because of a monthly charge i hardly noticed going out of my bank account.

You make some fair points but you wont change my mind. and hey if XIV go's F2P i wont stop playing either.

my point is i don't care if i pay or not but i am more than happy to pay as i enjoy the game

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Ah, I hope you have not misunderstood me. I am more than willing to pay a subscription for a game that deserves it. I was merely pointing out that just because a game is F2P it doesn't automatically make it Pay to Win or poor.

You are right, games which have a loyal fan base should always do well. I would love to see FFXIV grow a lot bigger (I am hoping 2.0 will be the update to do it). I too have been a massive FF fan since I played the very first way back when. The main reason I sub now is simply because it IS Final Fantasy. I am enjoying myself but FFXIV could be a lot better, hopefully it will.

I'm a fan of extended free trials (WoW's free to play to 20 is a good example). It lets you get a good grasp of the game's play style, and whets your appetite for the entire game.

I could see FFXIV going with something like that when the level cap hits 60. Capping it to 1 character, 1 DoW/DoM to 15, crafts/gathering to 5 or 10 (so no real way to have them effect the end game economy), and limiting the social aspect (to prevent RMT from spamming channels). A cash shop could work provided you are UNABLE to buy power (think of WoW's sparkle ponies/pets).

I don't even get why this thread is even still going they stated a long time ago that they have no plans to make FF 14 F2P. I'm pretty sure SE would be happy with another 600k subs cause it still makes a ton of cash every month.

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Originally Posted by Deakka

A cash shop could work provided you are UNABLE to buy power (think of WoW's sparkle ponies/pets).

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That's the key to it all. Cosmetic items only and there is no problem. You don't have to buy anything but if you wanted, you could be 'rewarded' by looking unique.

What argument exactly? All I can see is a bunch of people who are desperately trying to justify subscription fees, and dropping generalizations on any game that want's to do away with it. XIV players are probably the most annoying group of fanboys I've ever come across. It was never this bad with XI.

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Originally Posted by A5ko

I would have agreed with you maybe 6 months ago, but now we have behemoths in the games industry discussing F2P options as the only way forward. E3 highlighted the sheer amount of F2P games coming out and their popularity. Things like League of Legends are making a killing and this is obviously appealing to a business intent on making money.

The decline of subscriptions for subbed games is a wake up call for many. I was surprised at just how quickly SWTOR lost millions of players. If it was F2P from the start, then it would have had more people willing to stick with it, without the loss of money.

I'm not going to continue arguing with folks though. Everyone is entitled to their opinions, I do dislike people making sweeping generalisations of a game based on one bad experience with another game however.

I'm not for Pay to Win, but anything that is enjoyable and polished will always be worth a look from myself regardless of pay structure.

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I'll admit, I've never looked at the sales numbers for these games, but free to play won't do well unless the game mechanics are built in a way that compliments it. You can't just ignore the game mechanics when you make your method of payment is a part of the game itself, and I'm willing to bet that's why SWTOR went down. Because it was trying to incorporate a free to play model when it didn't fit.

If FFXIV does become free to play, it will likely fail unless the game is remade all over again.

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generalizations

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Word of the day ^.^

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Originally Posted by Keisuna

I'll admit, I've never looked at the sales numbers for these games, but free to play won't do well unless the game mechanics are built in a way that compliments it. You can't just ignore the game mechanics when you make your method of payment is a part of the game itself, and I'm willing to bet that's why SWTOR went down. Because it was trying to incorporate a free to play model when it didn't fit.

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SWTOR is being made F2P (with certain restrictions) to try and revive the player base. It was dropping long before F2P even came into it. The Secret World has also started to do some F2P weekends to get some interest as it just isn't doing as well as hoped.

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Originally Posted by Keisuna

If FFXIV does become free to play, it will likely fail unless the game is remade all over again.

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This is where we can disagree. It could be that the only way to get players back is by making it F2P. Think about how many left after the charging was brought back in following launch.

FFXIV 2.0 has a bigger uphill struggle than most MMO's as this is a second relaunch. Some people will just stay stubborn and refuse to try the new game, when it could be pretty amazing. Just like those on these boards who see all F2P as just another terrible game.

If FFXIV went F2P right now, as in tomorrow, would you say it was a failed game and stop playing? I wouldn't because F2P doesn't automatically mean crap.

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Originally Posted by Ingolf

What argument exactly? All I can see is a bunch of people who are desperately trying to justify subscription fees, and dropping generalizations on any game that want's to do away with it. XIV players are probably the most annoying group of fanboys I've ever come across. It was never this bad with XI.

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Maybe you just never visited an XI fansite the idiots were full on there as well.

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Originally Posted by Delsus

And added a lot of time 2,500 Zen will cost over over 200,000 Dilithium (possibly closer to the 1mil mark) this will take ages to farm though mining, STF, daily events etc. So its devote all your time to the game or spend the £20 per ship, the dilithium exchange is designed as a top up not to replace buying Zen.

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just do events and fleet actions from the content finder they have implemented, and borg warzones, they are repeatable quest. its really not hard and the time invested in farming them is rightly so if you choose to get them without paying cash. 1200 crystals per run.

Get Players back because it has the word "Free" in it.. of course most people will pounce on something that's "Free" :p ( Unless its like an Used Burger on the Street) :P.

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Originally Posted by A5ko

SWTOR is being made F2P (with certain restrictions) to try and revive the player base. It was dropping long before F2P even came into it. The Secret World has also started to do some F2P weekends to get some interest as it just isn't doing as well as hoped.



This is where we can disagree. It could be that the only way to get players back is by making it F2P. Think about how many left after the charging was brought back in following launch.

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This part is false cause Yoshi-p stated they gained more active players when the game started to sub. I know for a fact my ls got over 200+ members coming back after subs all of them were from GAF.

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Originally Posted by Firon

This part is false cause Yoshi-p stated they gained more active players when the game started to sub. I know for a fact my ls got over 200+ members coming back after subs all of them were from GAF.

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Yes, but people still left. It couldn't justify it's price to some people. When you now compare active subscribers to other MMO's you see a chunk of players it could have had if maybe it were still free.

Free to play will always come at a cost:
Abysmal leveling curve, droprate, anything: feel free to help yourself to the boosters in our cash shop
Lackluster gear design: you want to look flashy? here buy these overpriced vanity items, at a rental at worst
Bad community: "i just make an account quick to fuck with those guys"
And also the famous Pay to Win scenario that might or might not happen
If you count it all together, someone that is serious about playing a F2P title will most of the time spend a lot more money than just a subscription in the end.

And the reason SWTOR failed wasn't because its P2P, its because it was a mediocre looking single player game with lackluster WoW-recipe endgame shoehorned in. And their brilliant idea of "fully voiced" crippled the development speed of new content severely.

Most clamoring for F2P are either under-age and don't want to badger their parents for their Credit Card or are simply cheap.

10 dollars a month for a premium MMO is not asking too much which I hope FFXIV will be. Hell, even in games like DC online you pretty much need to pay the monthly fee to even accomplish anything of note. So I'm happy to pay 10 dollars for an all-inclusive game with everything I need to get IN THE GAME and not some online cash shop.

Final Fantasy 14 isn't going free to play.

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Originally Posted by Firon

This part is false cause Yoshi-p stated they gained more active players when the game started to sub. I know for a fact my ls got over 200+ members coming back after subs all of them were from GAF.

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Exactly, If I had to conjure a guess I would say the people didn't come back During the free time period because a lot of people on there was Jerks/trolls during the free trial period. I assume they came back figuring those people would Leave after the reinstatement of subs.

/shrug

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Originally Posted by Starlord

Word of the day ^.^

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I'm surprised you know the definition.

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Originally Posted by Darkillumina

Most clamoring for F2P are either under-age and don't want to badger their parents for their Credit Card or are simply cheap.

10 dollars a month for a premium MMO is not asking too much which I hope FFXIV will be. Hell, even in games like DC online you pretty much need to pay the monthly fee to even accomplish anything of note. So I'm happy to pay 10 dollars for an all-inclusive game with everything I need to get IN THE GAME and not some online cash shop.

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No one is contesting the fact you have to pay for an MMO. It's whether the game justifies the price at all.

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Originally Posted by A5ko

Yes, but people still left. It couldn't justify it's price to some people. When you now compare active subscribers to other MMO's you see a chunk of players it could have had if maybe it were still free.

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That still doesn't change the fact we have more players active when it was F2P.

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Originally Posted by Ingolf

What argument exactly? All I can see is a bunch of people who are desperately trying to justify subscription fees, and dropping generalizations on any game that want's to do away with it. XIV players are probably the most annoying group of fanboys I've ever come across. It was never this bad with XI.

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We are coming up with legitimate reasons why we don't want F2P, and you are just arguing with us like a F2P fanboy, I have played F2P games, the majority I have seen are pay to win and yes they are fun but in a game that has failed at release but SE has stuck with it loosing MILLIONS can you justify selling 50 pence subligars any vanity item over £1 is too much because it offers nothing, nothing at all, it won't even be rare because other will be buying it, and they will have to sell millions of the just to break even on the game this will take a lot longer than a pay to win or a subscription.

How would you make lets say for the sake of argument £3 million in 8 years with vanity items only (no boosters, no weapons only looks)? And lets see if its a sustainable business model shall we.

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Originally Posted by Ingolf

I'm surprised you know the definition.

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I would be surprised if you could stop insulting people for 1 day. XD Asking to much? :P

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Originally Posted by Delsus

We are coming up with legitimate reasons why we don't want F2P, and you are just arguing with us like a F2P fanboy, I have played F2P games, the majority I have seen are pay to win and yes they are fun but in a game that has failed at release but SE has stuck with it loosing MILLIONS can you justify selling 50 pence subligars any vanity item over £1 is too much because it offers nothing, nothing at all, it won't even be rare because other will be buying it, and they will have to sell millions of the just to break even on the game this will take a lot longer than a pay to win or a subscription.

How would you make lets say for the sake of argument £3 million in 8 years with vanity items only (no boosters, no weapons only looks)? And lets see if its a sustainable business model shall we.

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Every legit reason comes back to "I don't like pay to win" And seeing as that isn't the case for every single f2p game, there isn't much stock in the argument.

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Originally Posted by Starlord

I would be surprised if you could stop insulting people for 1 day. XD Asking to much? :P

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I'll stop insulting when people stop being stupid.

So yeah, not happening any time soon.

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Originally Posted by Ingolf

Every legit reason comes back to "I don't like pay to win" And seeing as that isn't the case for every single f2p game, there isn't much stock in the argument.



I'll stop insulting when people stop being stupid.

So yeah, not happening any time soon.

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"Stupid" on your standards? *smurks*

free to play will require something to make money or even go pay to win.

why dont you people who want F2P go play a F2P game not that hard is it?

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Originally Posted by A5ko

If FFXIV went F2P right now, as in tomorrow, would you say it was a failed game and stop playing?

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It would depend a lot on how they implemented it into the game. Again, the game mechanics as they are now, and likely will be once 2.0 comes out, is not one that compliments a free to play model. They would likely have to either change or scrap the very game mechanics that draw me to FFXIV in the first place. In these cases, yes, I would sadly leave, because FFXIV would be just like all the other MMO's that I never play.

If by some miracle of game design they are somehow able to implement a free to play model that doesn't kill everything I love about the game, then yes, I'd stay.

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Originally Posted by A5ko

I wouldn't because F2P doesn't automatically mean crap.

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But it doesn't automatically mean awesome, either. The game has to be designed with the free to play model in mind for it to be effective.

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Originally Posted by Ingolf

I'm surprised you know the definition.

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This one certainly enjoys his argument ad hominem.

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Originally Posted by Starlord

"Stupid" on your standards? *smurks*

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A great example of why I'll never stop insulting people.

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Originally Posted by Ingolf

A great example of why I'll never stop insulting people.

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Yeah like that will get you anywhere.

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Originally Posted by Keisuna

This one certainly enjoys his argument ad hominem.

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I'm not attacking his argument with the fact that he's stupid, just his person. I'd suggest you learn the definition of an ad hominem before you accuse me for using one.

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Originally Posted by Seirra_Lanzce

Ingolf doesn't get it! Dunno why he reminds me of Gramul... xD

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I'm an insult?
That hurts Seirra.

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Originally Posted by Starlord

Yeah like that will get you anywhere.

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More like get his posting privelages suspended.

lol
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