You might as well add an official DPS log to the game...

I remember a time in MMO's where you did not have to do these things and seriously had to focus on the fights and look what them bosses do and do not.... and having a bigger pool of better players to do content with than what you see in the parser era... and mostly due to a bigger pool of people without these tools available simply just had to get things done and where willing to actually be able to play the full boss mechanics and similar.

You quickly learned and got the idea of you needed to pass this or that thing, and to know your class and the likes, that game was not overly complicated having 20 or more buttons, but having to be way more firm on reaction to the bosses reactions instead, or would be dead... it is really sad that much of it today is more about joining some kind of science room... in a figure of speech.

or here me out Ban people for kicking without reason. I mean if your gonna kick people without telling them i believe you should receive a ban for kicking people without justifiable reasoning. Besides what are you gonna do admit your using a third party tool to judge someone unfairly. At that point either make a private group or let people try and then remove them but tell them they are not a great fit for the run and need to work on mechanics before they can prog at this point. Using a third party tool to judge someone is unfair. It took a bit but i did Black cat / honey bee/ brute bomber never did savage before but i tried and that worked. People in this community are weird if your that hung up on people parse stop using party finder and just use discord / reddit to find your people :3

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Originally Posted by Zakuyia

or here me out Ban people for kicking without reason. I mean if your gonna kick people without telling them i believe you should receive a ban for kicking people without justifiable reasoning. Besides what are you gonna do admit your using a third party tool to judge someone unfairly. At that point either make a private group or let people try and then remove them but tell them they are not a great fit for the run and need to work on mechanics before they can prog at this point. Using a third party tool to judge someone is unfair. It took a bit but i did Black cat / honey bee/ brute bomber never did savage before but i tried and that worked. People in this community are weird if your that hung up on people parse stop using party finder and just use discord / reddit to find your people :3

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this is one of the most insane things i have ever read on these forums lmao

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Originally Posted by Zakuyia

or here me out Ban people for kicking without reason. I mean if your gonna kick people without telling them i believe you should receive a ban for kicking people without justifiable reasoning. Besides what are you gonna do admit your using a third party tool to judge someone unfairly. At that point either make a private group or let people try and then remove them but tell them they are not a great fit for the run and need to work on mechanics before they can prog at this point. Using a third party tool to judge someone is unfair. It took a bit but i did Black cat / honey bee/ brute bomber never did savage before but i tried and that worked. People in this community are weird if your that hung up on people parse stop using party finder and just use discord / reddit to find your people :3

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Just because a group or PF leader doesn't tell you their reasoning does not mean it isn't justifiable. They have no reason to tell you since telling you can get them banned, the safer option is just to remove you and it will never be a bannable offence to just do that. That's a pretty crazy opinion to have, you aren't entitled to be in any given party but your own. People can play with who they want to play with, you're not a ball and chain they have to bear.

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Originally Posted by Carstien

They have no reason to tell you since telling you can get them banned, the safer option is just to remove you and it will never be a bannable offence to just do that.

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I see this mentioned literally all the time yet I’ve not seen/heard of a single player ever being banned for saying ‘Sorry but you’re taking too many damage downs and holding the party back, we have to remove you’ or ‘this isn’t going to work out because we’re on different prog points’.

You can absolutely tell someone why you’re kicking them, you just can’t be a dick about it lol. Again I’ve yet to see any actual evidence of any player ever being literally banned from the game for…removing another party member from the group and conveying that information to them (in a reasonable way)

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I see this mentioned literally all the time yet I’ve not seen/heard of a single player ever being banned for saying ‘Sorry but you’re taking too many damage downs and holding the party back, we have to remove you’ or ‘this isn’t going to work out because we’re on different prog points’.

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Because there is a not low chance of them arguing back and no one wants to deal with that. Kick them out, block them and move on. If you don't have the self awereness to understand why you're the problem... too bad for you. Everyone else is playing to have fun, not to argue with a stranger about their performance.

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Originally Posted by Moqi

Because there is a not low chance of them arguing back and no one wants to deal with that. Kick them out, block them and move on. If you don't have the self awereness to understand why you're the problem... too bad for you. Everyone else is playing to have fun, not to argue with a stranger about their performance.

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What does that have to do with being banned for kicking someone from a party and telling them why though? Nor does it address the fact that nobody has ever actually seen such a thing happen to a player (banned for removing party members for reasonable infractions despite simply making a statement of fact). I feel like you’re replying to an entirely different post.

If the ‘kick-ee’ is starting that sort of thing they can literally be reported? I mean, the only difference is that if you actually tell them why you’re kicking them before you block them there’s like a 1% chance they might actually take it on board and improve and suddenly you have 1 less prog liar running around ruining peoples raids.

Like, we’re really wondering why there’s so many ‘prog liars’ when they’re all being wordlessly kicked from parties? Especially when people can so frequently overreach/overestimate their ability to clear. Isn’t this essentially contributing to the problem? Everytime you kick/block someone wordlessly without feedback aren’t you just risking creating another prog liar?
‘Why tell them anything when I could be kicked without warning again I’ll just stay quiet and hope for the best’. It’s wrong and selfish, sure, but how often does that actually stop people lol

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Originally Posted by Connor

I see this mentioned literally all the time yet I’ve not seen/heard of a single player ever being banned for saying ‘Sorry but you’re taking too many damage downs and holding the party back, we have to remove you’ or ‘this isn’t going to work out because we’re on different prog points’.

You can absolutely tell someone why you’re kicking them, you just can’t be a dick about it lol. Again I’ve yet to see any actual evidence of any player ever being literally banned from the game for…removing another party member from the group and conveying that information to them (in a reasonable way)

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I'm always a tad suspicious whenever I see stories on the forums or subreddits in the vein of "I gave them good advice nicely and then got banned for it!". GMs have the chat logs available to them and giving out a ban means more than likely that you were not kind within chat.

They'll even contact you by tell and maybe throw you in the gaol to hear your side of the story before resorting to a ban or any punishment.

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Originally Posted by Xieldras

I'm always a tad suspicious whenever I see stories on the forums or subreddits in the vein of "I gave them good advice nicely and then got banned for it!". GMs have the chat logs available to them and giving out a ban means more than likely that you were not kind within chat.

They'll even contact you by tell and maybe throw you in the gaol to hear your side of the story before resorting to a ban or any punishment.

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Right? Being thrown in Gaol, sure, we’ve seen/heard of plenty of times where that happened, screenshots etc lol. But making a reasonable statement to another party member and suddenly getting a full-on ban from the game? Every player that ever used the chat log would have been banned from the game by now if that were the case (that might hurt profits just a little lol)

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Everytime you kick/block someone wordlessly without feedback aren’t you just risking creating another prog liar?

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If the kicked person lacks the self awareness to reflect on their performance and keeps joining parties they have no business being a part of, you can't blame their poor/dishonest behaviour on anybody but themselves.

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Originally Posted by Moqi

If the kicked person lacks the self awareness to reflect on their performance and keeps joining parties they have no business being a part of, you can't blame their poor/dishonest behaviour on anybody but themselves.

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I mean I don’t disagree to an extent; if someone got kicked they should probably have an idea of why lol (I.E stacking damage downs or whatever) before even looking at the actual data.

At the same time though, (sadly) it’s not often people respond logically to things. Especially when it comes to perceived criticism. If you convey at least some kind of reasoning then at least there’s a chance they might reflect where otherwise they wouldn’t (and assume it was just all 7 other party members who were bad and not them). That seems like a better approach than just throwing them in the bin (where they may or not belong lol) then complaining that you keep getting trash in the party in my opinion. Like at least it might do something to make things easier next time?

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Originally Posted by Connor

I mean I don’t disagree to an extent; if someone got kicked they should probably have an idea of why lol (I.E stacking damage downs or whatever) before even looking at the actual data.

At the same time though, (sadly) it’s not often people respond logically to things. Especially when it comes to perceived criticism. If you convey at least some kind of reasoning then at least there’s a chance they might reflect where otherwise they wouldn’t (and assume it was just all 7 other party members who were bad and not them). That seems like a better approach than just throwing them in the bin (where they may or not belong lol) then complaining that you keep getting trash in the party in my opinion. Like at least it might do something to make things easier next time?

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That would require communication though, and if there's one thing FF14 players hate, it's actually talking to each other in-game.

I mean, what do you think this is, some kind of MMO? :P

Agree with OP, and people need to realise that as long as there is high end content that requires optimal efficiency to clear, then there will always be a need to track and log individual performance in order to achieve that. At the end of the day, it's just a tool that displays the combat log in a more readable and digestible interface.
I might not like myself being judged for poor performance if I attemp that content, but it's just something you have to accept when there are others in the group that just want to progress.

"Please add an official way for people to be harassed and excluded" is a weird suggestion.

"Please add an official way for people to improve their performance" is not.

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Originally Posted by Moqi

"Please add an official way for people to improve their performance" is not.

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most peopel arent ready for this cause then it would show thhat they usually sandbag their pf hard

I'm inclined to say yes.

It's a good way for anyone to improve regardless of level, and for anyone with a superiority complex that likes to harass people.., they'll only find themselves getting banned eventually anyway

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Originally Posted by Carstien

Actually, no, it is not. They are probably using those tools but they didn't say a word, they could have many reasons for kicking you. You insulted them once, they are making room for a friend, they wanted a different job, they just had somebody ask to join, they have heard rumours about you...you can assume they are using the tools but with no proof, they are breaking no rules. That's just how it works, you don't get to just take no evidence as evidence. Doesn't work that way.

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This. All the ToS do is make me not want to explain why when I kick someone over underperforming (something I can easily verify without tools), because people can't handle the truth and will come crying wolf over being given constructive criticism. It's not worth it.

e/: Also, to the two people who pretend this never happens... at least on my primary EU-based DC, GMs never provide reasons for sanctions. A friend played with me exclusively and got yanked to GM gaol once, and we still have no idea why because we didn't get any details whatsoever. With untransparent moderation like that, I'm not taking chances with how easily underperformers take stuff personally.

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Originally Posted by 0blivion

This. All the ToS do is make me not want to explain why when I kick someone over underperforming (something I can easily verify without tools), because people can't handle the truth and will come crying wolf over being given constructive criticism. It's not worth it.

e/: Also, to the two people who pretend this never happens... at least on my primary EU-based DC, GMs never provide reasons for sanctions. A friend played with me exclusively and got yanked to GM gaol once, and we still have no idea why because we didn't get any details whatsoever. With untransparent moderation like that, I'm not taking chances with how easily underperformers take stuff personally.

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Though I will admit the lack of transparency is concerning (and we should have more details at the least - especially what the actual report was), this is purely to avoid retaliation. Which, let's admit, some players would absolutely do.

Also, again, GMs don't just send people to gaols unless they were somewhat toxic. The "constructive criticism" probably was in some aspect.

Pretty sure SE uses FFLOGS to check their homework in terms of job balance

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Originally Posted by JadeCurtiss

"Please add an official way for people to be harassed and excluded" is a weird suggestion.

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No it's not.
Its exactly what they did when they starved hell only knows what percentage of their playerbase (at the time) of content, and then dropped Chaotic, and sat there fingering their stars while the socios screamed "progliar".

Its exactly what they did when they created the lazy hunt farm sprint monstrosity of OC, added Fork-u-tower, and again just sat there exploring themselves some more while the socios this time screamed "sniper"

Its exactly what they did when they deliberately tune their last unreals of an expansion to apeal to the most hardcore, clueless to the fact that that might be some players (very likely to be in fact while freshly matured players are thinking about what they might try next expansion) first look at high end. Total a-res

Its exactly what they do when incentivise exteeme clears, and hundreds of them, instead of incentivising prog, and letting people get on with moving to savage, or "playing other games".
The tuning of extremes beggars belief when you consider that by the time it's no longer high-end next patch your skipping mechanics, and a full party or well geared novices can clear it like a partially filled unsync farm as long as you understand the one or two body checks not yet skipped. Joke. Try making it easier, but keeping it engaging for more than one patch. If you haven't got the mount while it's high-end, just wait until next expansion. Don't waste your time recruiting for another instance thats no longer as engaging to play as even one of the better alliances that came out three expansions ago, or numerous of the old normals.

Its exactly what they do when they push, and push and push a game, that has terrible consistency and balancing issues thanks to latency sensitivity and sychronisation issues, and push its dps checks and push its enrages and expect people not to go deranged at the prospect of not clearing the entire 3 tiers, after having battled through the first two over 100s of hours. Its just utter negligence to not factor it into behaviour and sentiment. Or it's pure ego/arrogance conveyed with callousness.

The difference, THE ONLY difference is that a DPS meter would be honest about it, and self aware.