Positionals

i would like if my combo gets interrupted if i dont do positionals right... on dragoon though

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Originally Posted by HikariKurosawa

I don't care if you don't agree, you stand at flank or rear and you get a potency boost. It's optional and it is shallow. If you like positionals so much, you would be drawn to the idea of a rotation being dependent on positionals. That's a meaningful implementation of positionals and it would make them a unique mechanic of the monk job. You say you like positionals, yet don't want to play a job that requires you to hit them consistently. Maybe you don't really like positionals that much and just enjoy the potency bonus?

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I don't need to disagree, the names, recast times, descriptions, etc. all demonstrate what I am saying.

I also didn't say I like positionals. I have a RPR at 90 but tbh I don't feel one way or the other about them. I don't think anyone ITT does either. I think they're parroting a streamer.

For example:

I design a set of pens that are all blue. The undertones of the blue are different, making them different shades. You come in, say they're all "basically blue", and called them the same. Except they aren't. To be homogeneous they would need to be the same exact blue.

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Originally Posted by Turtledeluxe

I don't need to disagree, the names, recast times, descriptions, etc. all demonstrate what I am saying.

I also didn't say I like positionals. I have a RPR at 90 but tbh I don't feel one way or the other about them. I don't think anyone ITT does either. I think they're parroting a streamer.

For example:

I design a set of pens that are all blue. The undertones of the blue are different, making them different shades. You come in, say they're all "basically blue", and called them the same. Except they aren't. To be homogeneous they would need to be the same exact blue.

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The exact same flank and rear = the exact same shade of blue. You're so desperate to be right but you're not.

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Originally Posted by Asari5

i would like if my combo gets interrupted if i dont do positionals right... on dragoon though

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Sure, dragoon and monk can be the positional jobs and they should make it so that the buttons dont work at all if you're not at the positional for the gcd. Monk was always very positional oriented because of the forms, while wheeling thrust + fang and claw add a natural flow to the dragoon's rotation that just makes sense. You're at the rear for one half of your rotation and it naturally moves you to the flank for the next half. Being at the flank reminds you that you're using one ability, while being at the rear reminds you that you're using the other.

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Originally Posted by Turtledeluxe

Or we could not do that, as it would result in 95% of jobs being homogeneous with regards to positionals.

As far as positionals, I don't care if you disagree. They are not identical.

https://ffxiv.consolegameswiki.com/w...tional_actions

This is why no one should have tried to spin the term against me.

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Sorry, what are we supposed to be taking away from that link?

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Originally Posted by Sjol

Sorry, what are we supposed to be taking away from that link?

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The fact it has 90% more likes than your post. And no, I'm not bragging about likes. I'm pointing out that you are willfully acting confused when plenty of other people clearly understand what the post says.
I suggest maybe trying to read it and understand that positional actions not identical.

Are the two of you trying to exhaust the daily post limit or something? "You're wrong" is not an argument. And positionals are not only defined by the direction the attack goes in, nor the potency buff they provide. Read the descriptions.

I'm not responding to any more posts as the ones you have provided read like concessions. have fun. And no that does not mean I'm not responding to the thread, it means I'm no longer discussing this particular line of thought. You can spam the whole thread misusing words. I'm not the word police and I've already made more than earnest efforts to help you understand.

I honestly couldn't care less about positionals anymore as I feel like they are indeed an outdated battle system, especially with those planet-sized hitboxes and auto-centering bosses.

Now I played monk as my preferred Melee back in ARR and it worked well before but I much prefer the focus on their combo optimization like your freedom during perfect balance. If anything, a heavier focus on combo strings would make up for the positionals imo.

As for the other jobs, you could consolidate redundant buttons that only exist to hit positionals for a new button that contributes to the job identity, that's what this game lacks in their jobs the most

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Originally Posted by Turtledeluxe

The fact it has 90% more likes than your post. And no, I'm not bragging about likes. I'm pointing out that you are willfully acting confused when plenty of other people clearly understand what the post says.
I suggest maybe trying to read it and understand that positional actions not identical.

Are the two of you trying to exhaust the daily post limit or something? "You're wrong" is not an argument. And positionals are not only defined by the direction the attack goes in, nor the potency buff they provide. Read the descriptions.

I'm not responding to any more posts as the ones you have provided read like concessions. have fun. And no that does not mean I'm not responding to the thread, it means I'm no longer discussing this particular line of thought. You can spam the whole thread misusing words. I'm not the word police and I've already made more than earnest efforts to help you understand.

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likes? it's a wiki page...am I missing something?

I think positionals are just a preference, some people like them, some hate them. What I think most people who like positionals have a problem with is when people who dislike positionals call for the blanket removal of positionals from all jobs simply because they themselves hate them.

I personally like the act of hitting positionals, it makes the gameplay feel more active, but I also think a job like RPR has positionals that feel tacked on just for the sake of it. I'd honestly be fine with RPR having no positionals. Every other job already has a long history of positionals and removing them will annoy some people, RPR is still new and barely has any positionals to worry about, so removing them will end up being a lot less harmful.

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Originally Posted by Turtledeluxe

The fact it has 90% more likes than your post. And no, I'm not bragging about likes. I'm pointing out that you are willfully acting confused when plenty of other people clearly understand what the post says.
I suggest maybe trying to read it and understand that positional actions not identical.

Are the two of you trying to exhaust the daily post limit or something? "You're wrong" is not an argument. And positionals are not only defined by the direction the attack goes in, nor the potency buff they provide. Read the descriptions.

I'm not responding to any more posts as the ones you have provided read like concessions. have fun. And no that does not mean I'm not responding to the thread, it means I'm no longer discussing this particular line of thought. You can spam the whole thread misusing words. I'm not the word police and I've already made more than earnest efforts to help you understand.

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I can absolutely be confused even when other people get it. I get that you're feeling attacked which wasn't my intent. Sorry for my contribution to that. I also don't think I've ever made the argument straight up that "you're wrong", but I could be wrong.

I looked at the link and the skills are different, but the only difference between hitting the positional and not was a potency increase. I didn't think anyone was trying to get rid of the underlying skills, but just the "+30 potency when used from flank". There could be something like guaranteed crit, or added debuff, but it doesn't appear to be one on the existing skills per the link you sent.

As far as concessions, I've tried to find common ground, though I'm very much getting the idea that people aren't terribly interested in that. At this point I've said that I agreed with you or could see things your way multiple ways while still stating that liking or not liking positionals was a preference. And sorry to still be confused, but I'm not sure why concessions, compromise, and understanding would be a bad thing.

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Originally Posted by Sjol

I can absolutely be confused even when other people get it. I get that you're feeling attacked which wasn't my intent. Sorry for my contribution to that. I also don't think I've ever made the argument straight up that "you're wrong", but I could be wrong.

I looked at the link and the skills are different, but the only difference between hitting the positional and not was a potency increase. I didn't think anyone was trying to get rid of the underlying skills, but just the "+30 potency when used from flank". There could be something like guaranteed crit, or added debuff, but it doesn't appear to be one on the existing skills per the link you sent.

As far as concessions, I've tried to find common ground, though I'm very much getting the idea that people aren't terribly interested in that. At this point I've said that I agreed with you or could see things your way multiple ways while still stating that liking or not liking positionals was a preference. And sorry to still be confused, but I'm not sure why concessions, compromise, and understanding would be a bad thing.

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It's not that I feel attacked, moreso that I feel like you may have the other user who is questioning my posts on ignore. I was responding to both of you but didn't quote their post, so admittedly it was probably confusing. But also the "you're wrong" post is just a few posts up so I kind of assumed you'd see it since you also entered the discussion, which would require viewing all my other responses and the posts addressing me. I think post 166 ventures back into the homogeneity discussion and there's simply nothing more to say about it, as I said. But I'm not angry or attacked, no worries. And similarly to you I've never once shut down anyone augmenting the positionals. I think enhancing them would be great. I think encounter design should change as well. I just don't think it's cool to throw it back in people's faces "you're homogenizing melee" to me or anyone and betrays a lack of understanding of what homogenization even is or what positionals even do in the current state.

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Originally Posted by Turtledeluxe

It's not that I feel attacked, moreso that I feel like you may have the other user who is questioning my posts on ignore. I was responding to both of you but didn't quote their post, so admittedly it was probably confusing. But also the "you're wrong" post is just a few posts up so I kind of assumed you'd see it since you also entered the discussion, which would require viewing all my other responses and the posts addressing me. I think post 166 ventures back into the homogeneity discussion and there's simply nothing more to say about it, as I said. But I'm not angry or attacked, no worries. And similarly to you I've never once shut down anyone augmenting the positionals. I think enhancing them would be great. I think encounter design should change as well. I just don't think it's cool to throw it back in people's faces "you're homogenizing melee" to me or anyone and betrays a lack of understanding of what homogenization even is or what positionals even do in the current state.

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Care to explain how removing or making positionals exclusive to one or two melee jobs would contribute to "homogenization" of jobs in this game? Can you even explain specific examples of homogenization in this game? Like, you say that flank and rear positionals are all different because they are tied to different abilities that happen at different points in each job's rotation, yet will probably go on to say that every job is shifting to a 2 minute burst window? Guess what, all 2 minute cooldowns are extremely different in this game and it just makes sense for the burst windows to line up from a gameplay perspective. It's called teamwork.

So please I really would like to hear your valid explanation in specific detail about how jobs are being homogenized, how positionals have anything to do with that, and how limiting positionals to monk and dragoon would further homogenize melee jobs.

If anything is homogenized, it is the fact that there are positionals on all melee dps. Personally I think the homogenization of jobs in this game is completely made up and baseless, but I'd love to hear your perspective in detail because all you've done up till now is throw around buzzwords and wikipedia articles that don't even support your position.

Let's play a drinking game! Every time a thread turns into a dumpster fire, we take a shot.

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Originally Posted by HikariKurosawa

Care to explain how removing or making positionals exclusive to one or two melee jobs would contribute to "homogenization" of jobs in this game? Can you even explain specific examples of homogenization in this game? Like, you say that flank and rear positionals are all different because they are tied to different abilities that happen at different points in each job's rotation, yet will probably go on to say that every job is shifting to a 2 minute burst window? Guess what, all 2 minute cooldowns are extremely different in this game and it just makes sense for the burst windows to line up from a gameplay perspective. It's called teamwork.

So please I really would like to hear your valid explanation in specific detail about how jobs are being homogenized, how positionals have anything to do with that, and how limiting positionals to monk and dragoon would further homogenize melee jobs.

If anything is homogenized, it is the fact that there are positionals on all melee dps. Personally I think the homogenization of jobs in this game is completely made up and baseless, but I'd love to hear your perspective in detail because all you've done up till now is throw around buzzwords and wikipedia articles that don't even support your position.

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All of your questions have been explained and the article completely proves the point. I'm not repeating myself, as I said.

Take it up with all the other players who understood what I said just fine.

I think you are in strong denial if you think people are just making up job homogenization..and aside from that your collective posts don't encourage me that further discussion would actually go anywhere.

In fact, your posts in general give me the impression you are a Xenosys stan. And here's my hot take-- no one should listen to Xenosys ever bc his love of the game is actually his love of cheating his way to a worlds first ultimate clear. Why the dev team or anyone would listen to him about job design is nuts, imo.

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Originally Posted by Arkdra

Literally 0 of the pvp jobs are more interesting than their pve versions.

Edit: PvP jobs are interesting in that they made a bunch of tiny kits feel distinct and true to their base jobs. They are not interesting in the sense that if you stuck them in PvE, they would be fun at all. They would be super boring in fact.

Edit: Also pvp is ultra imbalanced and the only reason it isn't a problem is that such a minor portion of the playerbase engages with it. So this is a terrible sell.

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Nobody is asking for pvp kits to be directly translated into pve, since as you say, they're not designed for pve in mind. The fact that they feel distinct and true to their base jobs was the whole point, and you're putting it better than I could. And perhaps that's something the devs should take note of when designing for pve.

Pvp isn't that imbalanced for what it is designed: crystalline conflict. If you're talking about FLs, nobody is going to take that comparison seriously, nothing is balanced here.

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Originally Posted by Turtledeluxe

I don't need to disagree, the names, recast times, descriptions, etc. all demonstrate what I am saying.

I also didn't say I like positionals. I have a RPR at 90 but tbh I don't feel one way or the other about them. I don't think anyone ITT does either. I think they're parroting a streamer.

For example:

I design a set of pens that are all blue. The undertones of the blue are different, making them different shades. You come in, say they're all "basically blue", and called them the same. Except they aren't. To be homogeneous they would need to be the same exact blue.

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No, you're just using bad faith to say that 220 potency is different from 200 potency.

Yes, it's mathematically true. Good grief.

I thought everybody here at least agreed that positionals could actually be made more interesting (like old trick attack etc), but I guess not? What's your position on this exactly? You'd rather keep our bland 20 potency increases on positionals?

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Originally Posted by 1313

Let's play a drinking game! Every time a thread turns into a dumpster fire, we take a shot.

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No thanks, I choose life.

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Originally Posted by Turtledeluxe

All of your questions have been explained and the article completely proves the point. I'm not repeating myself, as I said.

Take it up with all the other players who understood what I said just fine.

I think you are in strong denial if you think people are just making up job homogenization..and aside from that your collective posts don't encourage me that further discussion would actually go anywhere.

In fact, your posts in general give me the impression you are a Xenosys stan. And here's my hot take-- no one should listen to Xenosys ever bc his love of the game is actually his love of cheating his way to a worlds first ultimate clear. Why the dev team or anyone would listen to him about job design is nuts, imo.

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So you can't do it? Good to know.

I think you are strongly delusional if you actually think job homogenization exists in this game. You can't even explain how it exists. It's a buzz word you like to throw around because it justifies your unhappiness with the game. Maybe you are just jaded and incapable of seeing the game for what it really is? Who knows. You're incapable or unwilling to explain your position so it's irrelevant anyway. Maybe you should just stop posting if you are unwilling to elaborate or state your position.

So viper will have a more convoluted positional?

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Originally Posted by rawker

So viper will have a more convoluted positional?

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Hopefully not but even if it does I'll never remember them as I play the game casually and anyone who complains about my positionals can pay for my subscription +3 retainers if they like, if not then they can keep their opinions on how to play a job to themselves. :)

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Originally Posted by rawker

So viper will have a more convoluted positional?

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I didn't notice any mention of positionals on Viper.

I may need to rewatch later but i think it has something to do with the left and right blades in the gauge?

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Originally Posted by rawker

I may need to rewatch later but i think it has something to do with the left and right blades in the gauge?

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Do post a timestamp when you find a mention of positionals, I'd like to see it too.

There was a point when Yoshi was demonstrating Viper where he didn't use a move and waited until he was at the rear to use it, which indicates it could have been a rear positional. I don't think they have directly stated one way or the other whether positionals are staying, or have been removed though.

Few games challenge its players like positionals in FFXIV.
When one plays SAM, one must know and memorize the ancient art, passed down among generations.
Step to the side for red stickers. Step behind for blue stickers.
The massive trillion-IQ exertion must never be underestimated. Few can scarcely contain the burden of knowledge required to memorize these arduous positionals among those two whole skills.
Praise be to them, for they stand alone in sheer prowess of their ability to remember side for red and rear for blue.

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Originally Posted by Reinha

Do post a timestamp when you find a mention of positionals, I'd like to see it too.

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There's no mention of positionals, but he does move in ways that indicate positionals exist. So the jury is out. Think I remember back when he was demoing reaper he was doing positionals during enshroud so really, we're going to have to wait until tooltips get released at the end of the media tour/get leaked.

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Originally Posted by RinaB

Hello everyone, since the launch of EW in particular I've been finding boss design is heavily unfavorable to melee in general and especially for positionals. The Alliance raids are the number one culprit for this and it gets so frustrating I just stop caring. Either get rid of positionals or change boss design to accommodate it better. Positionals feel outdated and pointless as they typically only give a small potency increase and with the huge hit boxes and constant turning of current boss design it's more of a hassle then anything.

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Of course this is made up by the fact that even if you miss positional you still out dps physical range by a wide margin and most everyone else.

Which it be basically impossible to miss all positionals unless you intentionally tried. I’ve personally ran tests missing them intentionally and it’s well above prng. So I mean like is that fair?

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Originally Posted by Arkdra

There's no mention of positionals, but he does move in ways that indicate positionals exist. So the jury is out. Think I remember back when he was demoing reaper he was doing positionals during enshroud so really, we're going to have to wait until tooltips get released at the end of the media tour/get leaked.

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My guess is two skills. If it's less than that I'll be ecstatic, if it's more my day will be ruined and my disappointment immeasurable.

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Originally Posted by HikariKurosawa

So you can't do it? Good to know.

I think you are strongly delusional if you actually think job homogenization exists in this game. You can't even explain how it exists. It's a buzz word you like to throw around because it justifies your unhappiness with the game. Maybe you are just jaded and incapable of seeing the game for what it really is? Who knows. You're incapable or unwilling to explain your position so it's irrelevant anyway. Maybe you should just stop posting if you are unwilling to elaborate or state your position.

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Drop your attitude. You are making a fool out of yourself. There's multiple threads about it at this point due to the things they're taking away from certain jobs, or in the case of SCH just outright turning them into angels lmao.

Stop watching Xenos. Are you him? I'm sorry for what I said about you, but no one has any business using you as a resource for anything except playing with cheaters in Ultimates.

Or if you are a viewer, stick to screaming about bald people in chat.

And dont forget to keep hounding people about Kaiten being a "weeb move" as well (definitely nothing Xenosys would say).

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Originally Posted by Boblawblah

Sometimes I wonder if people read their own posts. Okay, sometimes I don't read my own posts, so fair enough, but wow, this one was silly :D

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This is typical forum cringe. I have been extremely patient and courteous to this person for how many pages in the moment I push back against them you are crying. You will find zero sympathy here. Take that somewhere else.

And especially when they're in other threads harassing people for no reason telling them they are weebs for wanting Kaiten back. I understand you're probably angry that I actually knew what I was talking about and proved it quite conclusively, but you're overstepping here.

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Originally Posted by Turtledeluxe

Drop your attitude. You are making a fool out of yourself. There's multiple threads about it at this point due to the things they're taking away from certain jobs, or in the case of SCH just outright turning them into angels lmao.

Stop watching Xenos. Are you him? I'm sorry for what I said about you, but no one has any business using you as a resource for anything except playing with cheaters in Ultimates.

Or if you are a viewer, stick to screaming about bald people in chat.

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Sometimes I wonder if people read their own posts. Okay, sometimes I don't read my own posts, so fair enough, but wow, this one was silly :D

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Originally Posted by Turtledeluxe

Drop your attitude. You are making a fool out of yourself. There's multiple threads about it at this point due to the things they're taking away from certain jobs, or in the case of SCH just outright turning them into angels lmao.

Stop watching Xenos. Are you him? I'm sorry for what I said about you, but no one has any business using you as a resource for anything except playing with cheaters in Ultimates.

Or if you are a viewer, stick to screaming about bald people in chat.

And dont forget to keep hounding people about Kaiten being a "weeb move" as well (definitely nothing Xenosys would say).



This is typical forum cringe. I have been extremely patient and courteous to this person for how many pages in the moment I push back against them you are crying. You will find zero sympathy here. Take that somewhere else.

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Yet you still can't elaborate or make a logical statement about the buzz word claims you've been pushing. So very patient. So very courteous.

You linked a wikipedia article that only served to illustrate that all positionals are is a potency increase across the board. There is nothing else to them. You're at flank, or you're at rear for positional potency increase. Every job has them, and you talk about homogenization being caused if certain melee dps roles have them removed? What? You say that making monk a job where positionals are absolutely mandatory for the rotation to work and removing them from the other jobs would result in homogenization?

Somehow I think you're just a xeno hater who is unhappy with the game and looking for someone to blame.

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Originally Posted by Boblawblah

Sometimes I wonder if people read their own posts. Okay, sometimes I don't read my own posts, so fair enough, but wow, this one was silly :D

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The forums are basically 50% thread derailment, 30% bad faith, 15% cringe and 5% actual good and healthy discussion. It is what it is.

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Originally Posted by Boblawblah

Sometimes I wonder if people read their own posts. Okay, sometimes I don't read my own posts, so fair enough, but wow, this one was silly :D

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haha yeah lol

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Originally Posted by HikariKurosawa

There are people who use scripts to automate their rotations and addons to resolve every mechanic in each encounter for them. This enables them to focus entirely on standing in flank or rear which makes their parse look better than 99% of the playerbase.

These are the people who really want positionals to stay.

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Originally Posted by ZiraZ

haha yeah lol

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I play on ps5. The only thing more embarrassing than that, is this (your) post.