Reintroduce Maat in 2.0

What maat taught me:

opo-opo necklace
sleep potion x4
mighty begressorcry strikes
raging rush tp wing raging rush

Everything an endgame player needs to know, right?

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Originally Posted by Grimwald

What about RDM, BLM, NIN, SAM and PLD? They prepared you pretty well for your job. PLD was about knowing your cooldowns and maximizing your total amount of effective hit points, RDM was about knowing the cooldowns, effects and implications of your job, BLM was about learning how to carefully weave spells in order to not get your shit wrecked, and SAM was about getting as much damage out of your weapon skills via skillchains (which were used constantly on mobs like Kirin/Byakko/etc).

All that stuff is relevant to endgame, learning the tools of your class makes you a better player, being a better player who knows how to play their job makes you better at endgame by default.

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RDM: RDMs are healers in XI. You don't learn to heal through the maat fight, you learn how to nuke and sleep. Something you shouldn't be doing.

BLM: You spam nukes and sleep. If you do that in any end game content you'll die.

NIN and PLD: The only thing that slightly resembles end game content, but you still don't learn to maintain hate.

SAM: You spam Weapon skills. If you do that in end game content you'll end up dead. It teaches you how to zerg badly.

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Originally Posted by Grimwald

You never used food? There's no excuse why you wouldn't, it makes shit go faster. As a PLD tank if I didn't constantly have max HP food on I'd be wasting my LS' time with needless deaths.

Soloing has nothing to do with this albeit I solo'd plenty of Sky pops as RDM, guess you can do some endgame content solo. (I also ended up selling those drops for a mil a pop).

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If you needed a Maat fight to teach you how to use food, I've got some bad news for you. You should have used food plenty of times before the Maat fight too, unless you were terrible.

Soloing has everything to do with this. 75% of the jobs are based around party situations and Maat is a solo fight, with no subjob. The Maat fight doesn't resemble anything at 75 or 99 endgame.

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Originally Posted by Ingolf

RDM: RDMs are healers in XI. You don't learn to heal through the maat fight, you learn how to nuke and sleep. Something you shouldn't be doing.BLM: You spam nukes and sleep. If you do that in any end game content you'll die.

NIN and PLD: The only thing that slightly resembles end game content, but you still don't learn to maintain hate.

SAM: You spam Weapon skills. If you do that in end game content you'll end up dead. It teaches you how to zerg badly.



If you needed a Maat fight to teach you how to use food, I've got some bad news for you. You should have used food plenty of times before the Maat fight too, unless you were terrible.

Soloing has everything to do with this. 75% of the jobs are based around party situations and Maat is a solo fight, with no subjob. The Maat fight doesn't resemble anything at 75 or 99 endgame.

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Apparently you didnt know the power of RDM nuking. /sadface, never did ENM's?? or solo?? RDM was a beast as a nuker/debuffer just needed the gear to go with it.

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Originally Posted by SynysterBlitz

Apparently you didnt know the power of RDM nuking. /sadface, never did ENM's?? or solo?? RDM was a beast as a nuker/debuffer just needed the gear to go with it.

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second of all rdm was forced to be healers in earlier stages of XI because of their Refresh and convert ability (was a rdm) and most of us hated having to be main healer. I honestly whenever someone would leave I would recommend a whm to join so I could do what I was supposed to do with debuffing and such

I have deicded to post something on this subject. I whole heartedly believe that a maat type system should be put in place and yes it is a speed bump but a welcomed one it relieves the style of grinding to a level.

As a ffxi player i see it as something solo and fun to test your skills.
Yes did i say test and skill? Ill explain why!
There was once a time back in ffxi when it was a dog eat dog world and there was no such thing as abyssea so getting to certain levels actually took some skill i would know i have 8 level 99 jobs.

Fighting maat at level 70 to get to 75 was most certainly a test of skill because you didnt have help you just had your main job and i have done most of the maat fights ex. Sch Dnc Brd Thf Smn Pld Blm and Bst

it is not as simple as spamming to get it done it takes proper gear intelligence and strategy to get passed.

To conclude my point i think a maat system would be an awesome idea, but just change it to like a lalafel named taam or tama or mata.

Yeah sure, it does require a bit of a strategy for most jobs. Even on War I had to actually use at least a little bit of energy to find out what I needed to do. However, the strategies for most jobs were still not really relevant to test a player's skill for actually hard group content. It was more a test of your gear and of whether or not you had capped your skills, and then, for many jobs, how good your luck stat was.

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Originally Posted by Ingolf

RDM: RDMs are healers in XI. You don't learn to heal through the maat fight, you learn how to nuke and sleep. Something you shouldn't be doing.

BLM: You spam nukes and sleep. If you do that in any end game content you'll die.

NIN and PLD: The only thing that slightly resembles end game content, but you still don't learn to maintain hate.

SAM: You spam Weapon skills. If you do that in end game content you'll end up dead. It teaches you how to zerg badly.



If you needed a Maat fight to teach you how to use food, I've got some bad news for you. You should have used food plenty of times before the Maat fight too, unless you were terrible.

Soloing has everything to do with this. 75% of the jobs are based around party situations and Maat is a solo fight, with no subjob. The Maat fight doesn't resemble anything at 75 or 99 endgame.

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RDM weren't just healers, they were debuffers for most of Zilart - WotG for endgame, landing a paralyze could and would save lives. It's only after WotG that they became awful healers/debuffers because the content shifted towards WHM and status effects became irrelevant because currently FFXI revolves around warriors spamming TP moves on a boss till the right one is found.

BLM always spam sleep and nukes, it is a way of life, end game or not.

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Originally Posted by Mirage

What maat taught me:

opo-opo necklace
sleep potion x4
mighty begressorcry strikes
raging rush tp wing raging rush

Everything an endgame player needs to know, right?

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Two can play at that game. For me it was:

Opo-opo Necklace
Sleep Potion x4
Sleep => Guillotine
Absorb STR => Melee for TP => Guillotine
Sleep => Drain
Pray for him to not use Bear Killer
Guillotine for the win

Had to rely more on magic since I was a taru and as such all those strats written by Elvaan and Galka DRKs simply didn't work for me.

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Originally Posted by SynysterBlitz

Apparently you didnt know the power of RDM nuking. /sadface, never did ENM's?? or solo?? RDM was a beast as a nuker/debuffer just needed the gear to go with it.

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Red Mages weren't really nuking in endgame events because of low skill + resistances + level correction. Once we were given assloads of +M.Attack Bonus through abyssea gear, then we started seeing crazy stuff like 4K damage Blizzard IV's and whatnot and it suddenly became worthwhile.

E-peen soloing is meaningless for a game that was built around partying.

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Originally Posted by Grimwald

RDM weren't just healers, they were debuffers for most of Zilart - WotG for endgame, landing a paralyze could and would save lives. It's only after WotG that they became awful healers/debuffers because the content shifted towards WHM and status effects became irrelevant because currently FFXI revolves around warriors spamming TP moves on a boss till the right one is found.

BLM always spam sleep and nukes, it is a way of life, end game or not.

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Actually most of the players were trying to use rdm as main healers before WotG came out. I was a lvl 70 before it came out and was being used as main healer from about lvl i'd say 45-50ish on up also around lvl 60 range too. Due to fact that we had convert and refresh. Also due to people doing that there was a major decline in people playing whm except for when they where wanting to teleport people for money. They also did the same to Sch when it was brought out due to it's ability to switch which magic they mainly used.

from what i have heard and known the only time rdm wasn't used as a main healer was during certain end game runs. But for leveling they were used as main healers and that was the Rdm complaint.

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Originally Posted by Rannie

Actually most of the players were trying to use rdm as main healers before WotG came out. I was a lvl 70 before it came out and was being used as main healer from about lvl i'd say 45-50ish on up also around lvl 60 range too. Due to fact that we had convert and refresh. Also due to people doing that there was a major decline in people playing whm except for when they where wanting to teleport people for money. They also did the same to Sch when it was brought out due to it's ability to switch which magic they mainly used.

from what i have heard and known the only time rdm wasn't used as a main healer was during certain end game runs. But for leveling they were used as main healers and that was the Rdm complaint.

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I was never a main healer in any kind of endgame, my job was to fresh + haste, and land debuffs on the mobs. I would heal and break my rotation only when a WHM was dead or OOM.

EXP Parties aren't endgame, and if you had a NIN tank you never needed to heal them anyways, just back to haste + refresh.

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Originally Posted by Grimwald

I was never a main healer in any kind of endgame, my job was to fresh + haste, and land debuffs on the mobs. I would heal and break my rotation only when a WHM was dead or OOM.

EXP Parties aren't endgame, and if you had a NIN tank you never needed to heal them anyways, just back to haste + refresh.

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I was talking about how rdm was used for healing in exp parties and excuse my wordage for the end game from what I heard a lot of time they would want rdm to be for the refresh or go sub drk for the chainspell and stun maneuver

Also they ended up phasing out nin tanks around lvl 30ish for a lot of areas and wanted a paladin for their ability to cure themselves and keep hate better than the nin could. Just occassionally pop the refresh on them as well as regen if you had whm subbed but for the others if they ended up getting hit you still had to heal them. As well as keep refresh on everyone debuff the mob that's being fought and keep haste on everyone.

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Originally Posted by Rannie

I was talking about how rdm was used for healing in exp parties and excuse my wordage for the end game from what I heard a lot of time they would want rdm to be for the refresh or go sub drk for the chainspell and stun maneuver

Also they ended up phasing out nin tanks around lvl 30ish for a lot of areas and wanted a paladin for their ability to cure themselves and keep hate better than the nin could. Just occassionally pop the refresh on them as well as regen if you had whm subbed but for the others if they ended up getting hit you still had to heal them. As well as keep refresh on everyone debuff the mob that's being fought and keep haste on everyone.

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I never found PLD useful in EXP pts, even when it was my most played endgame job, especially when the exp pts revolved around TP burning, I found Ninja's damage paired with their shadows made them great tanks on mobs that lasted 30s-1m

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Originally Posted by Grimwald

I never found PLD useful in EXP pts, even when it was my most played endgame job, especially when the exp pts revolved around TP burning, I found Ninja's damage paired with their shadows made them great tanks on mobs that lasted 30s-1m

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never been in a tp burning party before and always was in parties with paladins *shrugs*

The best paladins I saw in exp parties were /nin dualwielding swords with haubergeons.

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Originally Posted by TheVedis

This is not FF11

we DO NOT need Maat

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/rollseyes

Know something? Some traumas are best overcome through psychotherapy.

R

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Originally Posted by Mirage

The best paladins I saw in exp parties were /nin dualwielding swords with haubergeons.

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A tank based around having on-demand perfect evasion is unbalanced. It was cool to DW as a WAR though...

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Originally Posted by Rutelor

/rollseyes

Know something? Some traumas are best overcome through psychotherapy.

R

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If a game has a mechanic that was capable of traumatizing a player, is it a game anymore?

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Originally Posted by ShivenCasull

A tank based around having on-demand perfect evasion is unbalanced. It was cool to DW as a WAR though...

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There was nothing unbalanced about pld/nin in exp parties. It was faster exp than the pld basically just turtling the entire fight. You'd get half a DD more in your party at the loss of 25% tankability. Before lv74, there was definitely not anything close to on-demand perfect evasion for any class that subbed nin.

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Originally Posted by Mirage

There was nothing unbalanced about pld/nin in exp parties. It was faster exp than the pld basically just turtling the entire fight. You'd get half a DD more in your party at the loss of 25% tankability. Before lv74, there was definitely not anything close to on-demand perfect evasion for any class that subbed nin.

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Oh, no I meant NIN vs PLD. My bad.

Nin as a subjob was only really good because it offered DW as a passive.

I dunno man. Over the years, the optimal tank for various bosses hasn't really been static. For some periods, nin tanks were very good for a good amount of content, but a few updates later, there could be bosses that for a long time wouldn't be safe to tank with anything but a pld.

It's not like a ninja tank was suddenly unkillable either, especially not with enemies that triple attack every other attack round with extreme accuracy, and bosses that spam aoe/multihit TP moves.

Ninja as a subjob is however extremely good for lowman now (or at least half a year ago when I quit), especially for dnc and thf and with high haste. At the peak of the abyssea era, a very high percentage of NMs could be tanked with just utsu ichi with a moderately good eva set and haste/fastcast gearswaps for recast, letting you save utsu ni for an instant recast after an aoe attack.

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Originally Posted by Mirage

I dunno man. Over the years, the optimal tank for various bosses hasn't really been static. For some periods, nin tanks were very good for a good amount of content, but a few updates later, there could be bosses that for a long time wouldn't be safe to tank with anything but a pld.

It's not like a ninja tank was suddenly unkillable either, especially not with enemies that triple attack every other attack round with extreme accuracy, and bosses that spam aoe/multihit TP moves.

Ninja as a subjob is however extremely good for lowman now (or at least half a year ago when I quit), especially for dnc and thf and with high haste. At the peak of the abyssea era, a very high percentage of NMs could be tanked with just utsu ichi with a moderately good eva set and haste/fastcast gearswaps for recast, letting you save utsu ni for an instant recast after an aoe attack.

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Yeah, SE did a fairly good job balancing both of the classes. I played XI and it suffered from a smiliar PUG issue like the one in XIV (All content that requires any AOE tanking a WAR is prefered) My friend IRL was a Ninja and loved to brag about how easily he got invites to parties. I'm probably a little biased :P

That's a game design option only available to Final Fantasy XI or XIV because of the ability to swap jobs. Make an evasion tank, and content that is viable for their tanking. Then make a high defense tank and content that favors that style...

Not sure if it's a good thing though, will have to see where SE goes.

On topic: Party based limit breaks that are advanced instruction hidden in a quest? Yes please.

Solo grindfest content meant to slow character progression to max level the first time? No Thanks.

I just have to say this i love how we all derailed this thread that's great guys rofl. /nin would be fine for almost any job the reason I started lvling nin was for dual wield so I could solo some things on my rdm better. two swords pretty shiny and pointy.

Back to main topic.... I still don't think Maat should be in the game.

Maat should be in the game as a little kid with a maat's cap!

Not as a boss, though.

that would be kinda cute to see and have him say when i grow up i'm going to pummel everything like a mnk!

Yes, it would!

I agree- It should be a fight like the artifact job relic weapon fights. epic and hard to beat!!

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Originally Posted by Rannie

that would be kinda cute to see and have him say when i grow up i'm going to pummel everything like a mnk!

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Now there's a novel idea. I could see a young Maat having random adventures in different parts of Eorzea and us helping him out whenever we cross paths with him. Kinda like Hildebrand but with a little more violence involved. He'd be kinda like Toma from Chrono Trigger. I can definitely get behind that.

I like that idea right there too

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Now there's a novel idea. I could see a young Maat having random adventures in different parts of Eorzea and us helping him out whenever we cross paths with him. Kinda like Hildebrand but with a little more violence involved. He'd be kinda like Toma from Chrono Trigger. I can definitely get behind that.

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You know this just changed my mind. In with Maat!

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Originally Posted by Vaymathias

You know this just changed my mind. In with Maat!

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As I see it, he could be a recurring character you meet while leveling. Say you start in a lv10 quest hub and you meet him for the first time, as a young kid that is training with the hopes of becoming the strongest fighter in the world. He tries to test his mettle, gets into trouble, and then we have to help him. You might see him again at the lv20 quest hub where he's gotten stronger and is looking for a new challenge, where the questline ends with us helping him device a new skill.

The Maat questlines then could all be designed so that the end of each questline has you and Maat fighting together against something relevant to that part of the story (he would be an NPC that follows you around and helps you in the fight). Being around a character that much gives plenty of opportunity to flesh them out while making us care about them.

Maat as some kind of story-related character in the game would be unlikely to piss off many people.

I also think that a quest-related system to raise your character's level cap every 5 levels past 50 wouldn't piss off that many people either.

I really only think that the idea becomes offensive if you combine the level cap quests with the name Maat.

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Originally Posted by Grimwald

RDM weren't just healers, they were debuffers for most of Zilart - WotG for endgame, landing a paralyze could and would save lives. It's only after WotG that they became awful healers/debuffers because the content shifted towards WHM and status effects became irrelevant because currently FFXI revolves around warriors spamming TP moves on a boss till the right one is found.

BLM always spam sleep and nukes, it is a way of life, end game or not.

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So that's two jobs that you learned slight mechanics with. You still didn't have a subjob either, and managing stratagems for BLM was a huge part of the job. Whichever way you slice it, fighting Maat was not similar to most endgame content.

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Originally Posted by Grimwald

I never found PLD useful in EXP pts, even when it was my most played endgame job, especially when the exp pts revolved around TP burning, I found Ninja's damage paired with their shadows made them great tanks on mobs that lasted 30s-1m

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You shouldn't have used either on Colibri parties.

I'm fine with Maat returning as long as him returning doesn't mean I have to do long and tedious fetch quests in order to raise my level cap.