Twitch streamers still blatantly cheating on stream.

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I don't care. The game has dps checks so people need meters.

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The game has been developed, designed, tested and played exhaustively, the devs have stated unequivocally that they are in fact NOT needed, in fact the game can be, and has been, played and beaten without them.

You can beat ultimate with a totally vanilla client, if you cant, thats a YOU issue. A lot of players have in fact become SO dependent on them that they literally CANT play without them, but thats not a game design problem.

Thats their problem.

The game doesnt need meters. You may need them, thats another issue entirely.

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Originally Posted by VelKallor

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Gamers play game wrong that's why SE adding mods in game. Please.

How is ACT, in and of itself, cheating

By which I mean, add-ons bad/against ToS etc. Etc., but reading the history of this (necroed) thread people seem adamant ACT, BY ITSELF, is cheating.

Cheating is the act of giving oneself a performative advantage in a competitive setting through means outside of the normal mechanics of the contest (can't be bothered to look up the dictionary def, plus it'd be kinda silly to quote Webster or something, instead I'll just throw this adhoc definition I made up that hopefully everyone agrees on).

So in that context, how does ACT itself, by itself, not with other programs/mods/whatever "hooked in" (don't really know how it all works besides what I've gleaned from discussion about it) count as cheating?

Like, what advantage does it give you? And I ask this earnestly. Does knowing you're doing your rotations slightly suboptimally change a failed DPS check? No, because you will... Fail the DPS check. Knowing it's because you (or someone else, or whatever) didn't weave as perfectly as you could have... Doesn't change anything?

The only thing, and this is a stretch but I'm literally just speculating from a place of ignorance, is that like... Idk, maybe you can use ACT and if everyone in the duty sees you're not gonna break through a DPS check you all vote abandon to start from scratch, saving yourself a few seconds on the timer running out and the mechanic itself killing you? Or something...?

Seriously asking. How is ACT/parsing cheating? It's an addon, yes, it gives you information that is not easily understandable in real time, yes. But how is it cheating? Again, not talking about cactbot or whatever, talking mainly @ the people in the thread who adamantly declare all add-ons "cheats". What is your definition of cheating, then?

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Originally Posted by Vukimukinukiduki

Gamers play game wrong that's why SE adding mods in game. Please.

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That 1 mod is accepted doesnt mean the other one also should. Each case must be checked seperately.

And note that popularity is NOT a good measurement (the most popular mods are nearly always cheats)

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Originally Posted by KatiaRelanah

Seriously asking. How is ACT/parsing cheating? It's an addon, yes, it gives you information that is not easily understandable in real time, yes. But how is it cheating? Again, not talking about cactbot or whatever, talking mainly @ the people in the thread who adamantly declare all add-ons "cheats". What is your definition of cheating, then?

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The moment players fully rely on information granted by such mod, it also becomes mandatory to use it, especialy since it will force the devs to balance things towards its usage. WoW is proof of how bad such approach is since without mods its unplayable (you will be kicked the moment they know you dont have it installed).

Note that gathering information from your screen (and not a mod) is still a part of skill. A mod would negate such skill since it now will just dump fixed tresholds at you to beat. You remove any adaptations to it, and also remove any desire for a player to exceed such treshold since its not needed (it helps at best, but why bother when you can kick the weak link instead?).

Thats why its a problem.

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Originally Posted by VelKallor

The game has been developed, designed, tested and played exhaustively, the devs have stated unequivocally that they are in fact NOT needed, in fact the game can be, and has been, played and beaten without them.

You can beat ultimate with a totally vanilla client, if you cant, thats a YOU issue. A lot of players have in fact become SO dependent on them that they literally CANT play without them, but thats not a game design problem.

Thats their problem.

The game doesnt need meters. You may need them, thats another issue entirely.

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As learned by how stiff the DPS check was for P8S-1, we learned that the dev testers are pretty good at the game because crit RNG was determining pass/fail for very talented world-first groups. Meters do not make you better at the game and ACT and any ACT plug-ins don't play the game for you. I am so tired of people not understanding that x doesn't equal y. Yes, there absolutely are plugins for a *different* thing that does make some effect areas visible etc. but again, nothing outright plays for you. You still need to move, you still need to react.

I am not against ACT, or triggers in ACT that just give you a audio notification that x started because you can't focus on watching a castbar for 4 hours straight. Anything beyond that, I personally think is a step too far. I also don't care if other people avail themselves of any tools they can. The "advantage" doesn't actually give them anything. It's not like PvP has specific gear to make you better. Everyone is normalized. There isn't some super rare reward for being first at x. It. Does. Not. Matter. There is absolutely no effect on me or my gameplay.

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Originally Posted by DixieBellOCE

Why does square enix not just blanket ban them all to enforce the point that 3rd party programs are not allowed.

It takes 2-3 seconds of scrolling too see multiple people streaming with ACT and various other plugins.

The playerbase will not learn unless they enforce the rules.

Set an example.

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You can explain why you care, if you want. You can go into detail about how it bothers you that people you don't even know, and who should have no impact in your life are playing the game in a way you don't approve of.

That's all perfectly fine. You have every right to be bothered.

But please explain why I should care. How are their 3rd-party usage affecting my FFXIV experience? Because honestly, I don't see it. And believe me, I tried really hard to think of a reason why I should be bothered, but I couldn't come up with a single reason.

So yeah, maybe you can help me out with that? Or I'll be forced to come to the conclusion that the only problem here, is you.

I don't even care about modding subject anymore but it's the funniest shit ever to read what people make up to defend plugins

HOW IS HOOKING THE GAME AND DIRECTLY READING FROM IT'S MEMORY CHEATING
HOW IS INJECTING CUSTOM MODELS, ANIMATIONS AND CODE CHEATING IT'S JUST AFFECTING ME
HOW IS ME MANIPULATING THE COOLDOWN TO FIX THE NETWORK FLAWS CHEATING I JUST FIX THE ISSUES THAT SHOULDN'T BE THERE

It's just like lmao what are you even talking about, I just wait for the day when people speedhack and be like YEA BUT THAT'S LIKE ONLY AFFECTING ME, I JUST TRY TO MINIMIZE THE TRAVEL DOWNTIME.

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Originally Posted by drtasteyummy

I don't even care about modding subject anymore but it's the funniest shit ever to read what people make up to defend plugins

HOW IS HOOKING THE GAME AND DIRECTLY READING FROM IT'S MEMORY CHEATING
HOW IS INJECTING CUSTOM MODELS, ANIMATIONS AND CODE CHEATING IT'S JUST AFFECTING ME
HOW IS ME MANIPULATING THE COOLDOWN TO FIX THE NETWORK FLAWS CHEATING I JUST FIX THE ISSUES THAT SHOULDN'T BE THERE

It's just like lmao what are you even talking about, I just wait for the day when people speedhack and be like YEA BUT THAT'S LIKE ONLY AFFECTING ME, I JUST TRY TO MINIMIZE THE TRAVEL DOWNTIME.

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BTW you better not be playing the game on a fast internet, because that's cheating. Especially if you use a VPN. The proper way to enjoy FFXIV is on a slow dial-up connection so that everyone is on an even playing field.

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Originally Posted by drtasteyummy

I don't even care about modding subject anymore but it's the funniest shit ever to read what people make up to defend plugins

HOW IS HOOKING THE GAME AND DIRECTLY READING FROM IT'S MEMORY CHEATING
HOW IS INJECTING CUSTOM MODELS, ANIMATIONS AND CODE CHEATING IT'S JUST AFFECTING ME
HOW IS ME MANIPULATING THE COOLDOWN TO FIX THE NETWORK FLAWS CHEATING I JUST FIX THE ISSUES THAT SHOULDN'T BE THERE

It's just like lmao what are you even talking about, I just wait for the day when people speedhack and be like YEA BUT THAT'S LIKE ONLY AFFECTING ME, I JUST TRY TO MINIMIZE THE TRAVEL DOWNTIME.

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But how is it cheating, unironically?

What is your definition of cheating? Because you're conflating multiple things here, namely

- visual [aesthetic] changes (viera having hats)

How does this affect gameplay?

- visual [rendering/marking mechanics automatically and/or allowing viewspace increase]

Okay yeah this is cheating, it provides a means to perform the task of clearing a duty more easily/in a way that advantages you over players who don't have it

- informational [knowing how much damage you're doing]

I refer to my long post above, how does parsing by itself constitute cheating? How does knowing how much damage you're doing help you pass a DPS check better? The failed mechanic tells you the same thing, you're not doing enough damage, get better gear and/or use better consumables and/or practice your rotation

- mechanical [affecting ping/latency/server functions]

Cheating insofar as it provides you something that other players don't have, but I echo sentiments that such things that apparently are easily changeable should be native to the game? Idk exactly what even these sorts of add-ons/plugins are, p much the only ones I know about are ACT, derivative call-out mods like cactbot (from debates about ACT mentioning it), and visual/texture/model mods. Oh, and camhacks I guess because of the WF cheating thing a while ago.

Anyways, yeah. It makes any sort of point you have against the unfairness of cheating come across as hyperbolic and exaggerated when you label things like chat bubbles or slightly higher-res clothing as "cheating" by virtue of being mods. I can't agree with this, they offer literally and demonstrably no advantage in gameplay terms, no matter how many times you about about it or conflate it with things that are pretty clearly cheating.

As it is.... SE will find a way to plug it away for good.... and then we will have goodbye videos on youtube with crying and everything because the game just reach a tier where you actually had to put competetion on the side of console players and actually get gut....

So yes something should definetely be done, and plugging the outlets so there is no way to mine the data from would be the way ahead.

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I am not against ACT, or triggers in ACT that just give you a audio notification that x started because you can't focus on watching a castbar for 4 hours straight.

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Do other players get that audio notification? No? Then its cheating because it gives you an advantage they dont have.

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Originally Posted by VelKallor

Do other players get that audio notification? No? Then its cheating because it gives you an advantage they dont have.

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Does ACT provide this functionality natively? Or do you have to have an add-on, for the add-on?

The latter was my impression, I really don't know anything about the parsing world beyond "it tells you what your DPS is", and I thought ACT did exactly and exclusively that... And that you need other programs/applications to add in the stuff like callouts or whatever.

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Originally Posted by KatiaRelanah

But how is it cheating, unironically?

What is your definition of cheating? Because you're conflating multiple things here, namely

- visual [aesthetic] changes (viera having hats)

How does this affect gameplay?

- visual [rendering/marking mechanics automatically and/or allowing viewspace increase]

Okay yeah this is cheating, it provides a means to perform the task of clearing a duty more easily/in a way that advantages you over players who don't have it

- informational [knowing how much damage you're doing]

I refer to my long post above, how does parsing by itself constitute cheating? How does knowing how much damage you're doing help you pass a DPS check better? The failed mechanic tells you the same thing, you're not doing enough damage, get better gear and/or use better consumables and/or practice your rotation

- mechanical [affecting ping/latency/server functions]

Cheating insofar as it provides you something that other players don't have, but I echo sentiments that such things that apparently are easily changeable should be native to the game? Idk exactly what even these sorts of add-ons/plugins are, p much the only ones I know about are ACT, derivative call-out mods like cactbot (from debates about ACT mentioning it), and visual/texture/model mods. Oh, and camhacks I guess because of the WF cheating thing a while ago.

Anyways, yeah. It makes any sort of point you have against the unfairness of cheating come across as hyperbolic and exaggerated when you label things like chat bubbles or slightly higher-res clothing as "cheating" by virtue of being mods. I can't agree with this, they offer literally and demonstrably no advantage in gameplay terms, no matter how many times you about about it or conflate it with things that are pretty clearly cheating.

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People always call it cheating because they want to deliberately ride the "It's not a cheat unless it provides an advantage" wave, but the reality is that you're just the consumer of a product and the devs of that product stated they don't want to have any "plugins" in that product, which means regardless of what your "plugin" does, it's breaching the ToS. Also it has many negative effects, for one, logging creates a toxic environment, visual mods and things like "Mare" are subtly pushing new RP players to use plugins, which also means that everyone who doesn't have access to it is limited, like console users. At other times, people are pushed out of their group because they can't use cactpot. I do not condemn the use of "plugins" as such, I in fact think that they create as much positive as negative, but I still declare them as cheating. Personally, Dalamud is a cheat framework, otherwise they would have at least limited its use case against that.

My dismissal of this whole situation purely comes from these players who push fake agendas to support "plugins are good mkay" by gaslighting everyone else instead of just being real, as much as every new plugin thread that emerges that does this "Am I the asshole" plugin edition.

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Originally Posted by drtasteyummy

People always call it cheating because they want to deliberately ride the "It's not a cheat unless it provides an advantage" wave, but the reality is that you're just the consumer of a product and the devs of that product stated they don't want to have any "plugins" in that product, which means regardless of what your "plugin" does, it's breaching the ToS. Also it has many negative effects, for one, logging creates a toxic environment, visual mods and things like "Mare" are subtly pushing new RP players to use plugins, which also means that everyone who doesn't have access to it is limited, like console users. At other times, people are pushed out of their group because they can't use cactpot. I do not condemn the use of "plugins" as such, I in fact think that they create as much positive as negative, but I still declare them as cheating. Personally, Dalamud is a cheat framework, otherwise they would have at least limited its use case against that.

My dismissal of this whole situation purely comes from these players who push fake agendas to support "plugins are good mkay" by gaslighting everyone else instead of just being real, as much as every new plugin thread that emerges that does this "Am I the asshole" plugin edition.

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Accidentally closed my response, which was a shame because it was fairly substantial.

The tldr was this: try as you might, you aren't gonna gaslight me into believing aesthetic changes are a gateway drug to gameplay mods/toxicity:

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visual mods and things like "Mare" are subtly pushing new RP players to use plugins

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I say this as an ardent mod user in games where it IS dev-approved (Skyrim as a random example). Me having 8k armor textures isn't gonna make the gameplay any easier for me. And there are plenty of people playing such games who would never use anything touching the gameplay experience, instead just playing "visual overhauls" with fancier graphics.

If your main gripe is "people can use stuff like ACT to DPSshame people", that's a person problem, not a mod problem. People can be toxic in game just as easily vanilla (YPYT, two-man preformeds kicking someone they don't like out of a duty, etc.) Again, pleading the fifth, I don't use them but I wouldn't take away peoples' ability to make the game prettier in their subjective opinion simply because others are assholes.

Edit: and also, branding the existence of a framework as cheating is as asinine as saying syringes existing means all athletes dope up, because surely some of them use them to shoot up performance enhancing drugs! Ludicrous on the face of it. (Edited edit: I actually don't know how PEDs get delivered, replace syringes with cups if it's something they drink or whatever etc. The point stands).

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Originally Posted by KatiaRelanah

Accidentally closed my response, which was a shame because it was fairly substantial.

The tldr was this: try as you might, you aren't gonna gaslight me into believing aesthetic changes are a gateway drug to gameplay mods/toxicity:



I say this as an ardent mod user in games where it IS dev-approved (Skyrim as a random example). Me having 8k armor textures isn't gonna make the gameplay any easier for me.

If your main gripe is "people can use stuff like ACT to DPSshame people", that's a person problem, not a mod problem. People can be toxic in game just as easily vanilla (YPYT, two-man preformeds kicking someone they don't like out of a duty, etc.) Again, pleading the fifth, I don't use them but I wouldn't take away peoples' ability to make the game prettier in their subjective opinion simply because others are assholes.

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You seem to be unable to let go of this narrow view on this situation, and I'm not trying to gaslight you into believing anything. I merely look down on people who don't have the grit state the obvious, you need these plugins and don't want to get rid of them, regardless of whether they are breaking the ToS, you simply don't care. You are just looking for excuses to pat yourself on the back.

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Originally Posted by drtasteyummy

You seem to be unable to let go of this narrow view on this situation, and I'm not trying to gaslight you into believing anything. I merely look down on people who don't have the grit state the obvious, you need these plugins and don't want to get rid of them, regardless of whether they are breaking the ToS, you simply don't care.

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"Narrow view"

Says the person saying all mods, bar none with no exceptions, are "cheats".

Are you... Are you being serious right now? What's narrow about "nuance exists", at least proportionally compared to "there is no nuance, no debate, no discussion, it's all [X]"? If my view is narrow, you're looking through the eye of a needle.

Let the witch begin, again! Ban all of them! Yoshi p and even agrees to ban them all, just shine the light on them and let the gold veil of the ban hammer smash apon them.

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Originally Posted by KatiaRelanah

"Narrow view"

Says the person saying all mods, bar none with no exceptions, are "cheats".

Are you... Are you being serious right now? What's narrow about "nuance exists", at least proportionally compared to "there is no nuance, no debate, no discussion, it's all [X]"? If my view is narrow, you're looking through the eye of a needle.

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Again, I am not arguing over your personal views. A program does X and the ToS says Y, and X does breach Y. Whatever you add to justify it is up to you.

Nvidia Freestyle:

https://www.nvidia.de/geforce/geforc...eestyle-games/

This offers reshade-like post-process visual effects and is officially sanctioned by SE, by virtue of Nvidia having permission to enable it on the game.

You could argue it offers gameplay advantages as it makes visuals clearer for a user. Certain visual effects that might be meant to obscure their view don't "work as well".

How does this differ from the aesthetic mods I explicitly and specifically described not caring about?

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Originally Posted by drtasteyummy

Again, I am not arguing over your personal views. A program does X and the ToS says Y, and X does breach Y. Whatever you add to justify it is up to you.

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Point out where in my post(s) I said that plugins weren't against ToS? I advice you go to my first reply in the topic, it might be enlightening.

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Originally Posted by KatiaRelanah

By which I mean, add-ons bad/against ToS etc. Etc.

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Not once did I ever say that plugins WEREN'T against ToS. I merely am expressing my opinion on whether they should be, which I absolutely have the right to do (ToS does NOT include a line about "you aren't allowed to discuss this ToS).

I'm not particularly caring one way or the other, but this would be like a person advocating for marijuana legalization being labelled a pothead. No, bro, it's possible to discuss a law/rule/regulation/legal standard without being in violation of it, and discussion isn't in and of itself verboten.

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Originally Posted by KatiaRelanah

You know what, I'll come clean. I do use "visual mods", namely Nvidia Freestyle:

https://www.nvidia.de/geforce/geforc...eestyle-games/

This offers reshade-like post-process visual effects and is officially sanctioned by SE, by virtue of Nvidia having permission to enable it on the game. For me, it's mainly the "'clarity" slider which removes a lot of the fogging.

You could argue it offers gameplay advantages as it makes visuals clearer for me. Certain visual effects that might be meant to obscure my view don't "work as well". Sorry, not sorry, it is explicitly endorsed and supported.

How does this differ from the aesthetic mods I explicitly and specifically described not caring about?

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Sure, manipulating ingame models or animations with tools such as Penumbra is against the ToS as stated here:

2.6 Hacking and Circumvention. You may not hack, disassemble, decompile, or otherwise modify the Game or server computer code, whether the Game code is located on a DVD, Blu-rayTM disc, your computer/console or on Square Enix's servers, except as expressly permitted by Square Enix or applicable law.

and here

2.7 Modifying or Creating Derivative Software. You may not modify or cause to be modified any files that are a part of the Game or Service in any way not expressly authorized by Square Enix, and may not make any derivative works of the Game.

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Originally Posted by drtasteyummy

Sure, manipulating ingame models or animations with tools such as Penumbra is against the ToS as stated here:

2.7 Modifying or Creating Derivative Software. You may not modify or cause to be modified any files that are a part of the Game or Service in any way not expressly authorized by Square Enix, and may not make any derivative works of the Game.

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Okay, CC us the email you send to Nvidia where you tell them they can't enable Freestyle on FFXIV. I'm sure you're much more cognizant of their permission to do so than... They are, themselves.

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Originally Posted by KatiaRelanah

Okay, CC us the email you send to Nvidia where you tell them they can't enable Freestyle on FFXIV. I'm sure you're much more cognizant of their permission to do so than... They are, themselves.

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Why would I bother? It's not my job nor do I have the authority to do that, but in fact, SE could, as seen in games like Escape from Tarkov before, where the mode is disabled due to cheating. Almost ironically that you are unaware of that.

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Originally Posted by drtasteyummy

Why would I bother? It's not my job nor do I have the authority to do that, but in fact, SE could, as seen in games like Escape from Tarkov before, where the mode is disabled due to cheating. Almost ironically that you are unaware of that.

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Wow, a different publisher/developer with a different game with a different focus changed their mind about permission for the filters because of its effects on the inherently competitive PVP nature of the game!

Totally not apples and oranges.

Edit: Also, absolute LMAO at this... You're so adamant and aggressively anti-"cheat", but won't actually do anything about it because, I can reasonably assume,

1) you know no one actually considers aesthetic changes cheating in a 99% PVE MMORPG
2) you know that SE doesn't actually care and/or is fine with it and don't wanna send the email because it'd make you look absolutely foolish to some random staffer(s) at Nvidia and/or SE

Edit: oh, and in case you were wondering about the status of post-processing (which inerently and definitionally (POST processing) does NOT touch game data:)

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Originally Posted by Hvinire

Utilizing such a tool would not violate any agreements customers have with Square Enix, and we don't plan on doing anything to restrict users from accessing it.

However, we advise that players use this at their own risk. Square Enix does not regulate the content of the aforementioned add-on and will not be responsible for any damage or losses resulting from its use.

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So I can save you the shame of sending an email complaining about something that isn't disallowed.

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Originally Posted by KatiaRelanah

Wow, a different publisher/developer with a different game with a different focus changed their mind about permission for the filters because of its effects on the inherently competitive PVP nature of the game!

Totally not apples and oranges.

Edit: Also, absolute LMAO at this... You're so adamant and aggressively anti-"cheat", but won't actually do anything about it because, I can reasonably assume,

1) you know no one actually considers aesthetic changes cheating in a 99% PVE MMORPG
2) you know that SE doesn't actually care and/or is fine with it and don't wanna send the email because it'd make you look absolutely foolish to some random staffer(s) at Nvidia and/or SE

Edit: oh, and in case you were wondering about the status of post-processing (which inerently and definitionally (POST processing) does NOT touch game data:)



So I can save you the shame of sending an email complaining about something that isn't disallowed.

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You were mockingly saying that I should get it banned, and I merely said that SE could have it banned for cheating if they feel like it. Whether SE acts upon plugins is not up for debate, it's obvious they can't because they let the plugin virus spread and are unable to combat it now without killing half of their community. You still seem unable to comprehend that I'm, unlike you, seeing this from an objective rather than a personal view. As of right now, plugins are indeed cheats, hack tools, mods, illegal programs, or whatever you would like to call them as stated by the ToS.

/popcorn

;)

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Originally Posted by UkcsAlias

A mod would negate such skill since it now will just dump fixed tresholds at you to beat. You remove any adaptations to it, and also remove any desire for a player to exceed such treshold since its not needed (it helps at best, but why bother when you can kick the weak link instead?).

Thats why its a problem.

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I didn't notice someone HAD tried to explain ACT's cheating-ness to me. Okay, so honestly, I really don't know anything about it.

I THOUGHT it was literally just a meter saying "you're doing 4647 DPS right now" or whatever, and nothing else. Obviously, it can be used to "monitor" others, which again I acknowledge can be weaponized by toxic players to DPSshame people for not "keeping up"

This response to me, though, suggests that at certain points ACT provides some sort of benchmark for passing DPS checks? Like my understanding (parsing, if you will) of this is that... Some sort of... Metric shows up where like, you have to keep the DPS above a certain value and the plugin explicitly tells you "hey, BigBossGuy is casting RaidwideWipeSpell, party must have DPS of at least 55853 collectively to pass it". Is this... How it works?

If it has such functionality, I can slightly more honestly entertain calling it cheating, though I'll reiterate what I said across my replies... I'm pretty sure when you fail the check, that means everyone just needs to.... Do their rotations more better-ly? Get better gear? Like it's pretty obvious when you wipe that you failed, you shouldn't need a DPS meter to tell you that.

I'm aware (or at least am led to understand) that savage raiders will be a bit more... Aggressive, about policing people who don't "cut it"? But like, that returns to me talking about the people being the problem. They could just as easily watch the aggression order and see that the RPR is inexplicably last in aggro under like, a BRD or something. I don't even raid and even I could tell you there's an issue there. And whether you kindly say "hey RPR, have you practiced your rotation? Are you geared up? So you have any questions? Looked like you weren't aggroed very high, which suggests your DPS might have been low?" Vs "RPR your parse was 7th percentile you're literally among the worst RPR players gtfo the party"

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Originally Posted by drtasteyummy

You were mockingly saying that I should get it banned, and I merely said that SE could have it banned for cheating if they feel like it. Whether SE acts upon plugins is not up for debate, it's obvious they can't because they let the plugin virus spread and are unable to combat it now without killing half of their community. You still seem unable to comprehend that I'm, unlike you, seeing this from an objective rather than a personal view. As of right now, plugins are indeed cheats, hack tools, mods, illegal programs, or whatever you would like to call them as stated by the ToS.

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They aren't (all) cheats.

It's that cut and dry.

What performative enhancement does upscaled armor textures give you? Honest answer, stay on topic, don't whatabout Cactbot or whatever. I have conceded such gameplay/mechanical modifications are cheating by definition.

But how are texture mods cheating? By your very narrow (lol ironic af) definition of "not officially made by SE? It's a cheat!", you would consider them cheats. So how are they cheats?

What gameplay advantage does shinier visual armor give you?

How does it affect raids that you can see "nicks" on an armor texture?

How does Viera having hats give a WF Savage party their clear?

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Originally Posted by VelKallor

The game has been developed, designed, tested and played exhaustively, the devs have stated unequivocally that they are in fact NOT needed, in fact the game can be, and has been, played and beaten without them.

You can beat ultimate with a totally vanilla client, if you cant, thats a YOU issue. A lot of players have in fact become SO dependent on them that they literally CANT play without them, but thats not a game design problem.

Thats their problem.

The game doesnt need meters. You may need them, thats another issue entirely.

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Its the ppl wanting faster clears... yes ofc its a world first but by any means they wanna speed up the process and the idea to need more then 1-2 weeks seems to scare too many of em.

You clearly see when certain ppl are forced to play without any addon and suddenly the tripple legend doesnt even manage a story trial or dungeon...

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Originally Posted by VelKallor

Do other players get that audio notification? No? Then its cheating because it gives you an advantage they dont have.

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I recall back then... it was the release of sophia Ex when a friend invited me to his stream when his static did the fight, he used japanese triggers for her attacks - before that i thought is was my skill issue for having a harder time, but no he just had a constant guide right away... really fair play...

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Originally Posted by KatiaRelanah

What performative enhancement does upscaled armor textures give you? Honest answer, stay on topic, don't whatabout Cactbot or whatever. I have conceded such gameplay/mechanical modifications are cheating by definition.

But how are texture mods cheating? By your very narrow (lol ironic af) definition of "not officially made by SE? It's a cheat!", you would consider them cheats. So how are they cheats?

What gameplay advantage does shinier visual armor give you?

How does it affect raids that you can see "nicks" on an armor texture?

How does Viera having hats give a WF Savage party their clear?

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So are you using and modded client for that? Dont need to answer but if the answer is yes, then its not allowed and while you might only "pretty up" the game, the need for suck hacked clients opens the doors for more, if like clicks behind the pretty special aura horns is a tempting gameplay mod, many would give in.

Texture mods? Well if you pretty up your bookshelf or things like that, not much. If you change stuff to better see mobs, enemy in pvp, mechanics... everything? Modding outfits so you dont have to buy from mogstation? or dye raid/un-augmented tome gear? or gear that copyrighted? Or (and im really the last to complain about naughty stuff) just stuff thats 18+ or fetish stuff? You see no problems with that when we cant even a smoke emote? lol

Ill give you the Viera hats though, thats just lazyness on their part for not adjusting the top 10-20 used hats or literally just clip 50% with the ears... >_>

Oh this argument again. Neat. Wonder if people will somehow come to an understanding or middle ground? No? It'll end in the same place as it started? Oh.

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Originally Posted by KatiaRelanah

I didn't notice someone HAD tried to explain ACT's cheating-ness to me. Okay, so honestly, I really don't know anything about it.

I THOUGHT it was literally just a meter saying "you're doing 4647 DPS right now" or whatever, and nothing else. Obviously, it can be used to "monitor" others, which again I acknowledge can be weaponized by toxic players to DPSshame people for not "keeping up"

This response to me, though, suggests that at certain points ACT provides some sort of benchmark for passing DPS checks? Like my understanding (parsing, if you will) of this is that... Some sort of... Metric shows up where like, you have to keep the DPS above a certain value and the plugin explicitly tells you "hey, BigBossGuy is casting RaidwideWipeSpell, party must have DPS of at least 55853 collectively to pass it". Is this... How it works?

If it has such functionality, I can slightly more honestly entertain calling it cheating, though I'll reiterate what I said across my replies... I'm pretty sure when you fail the check, that means everyone just needs to.... Do their rotations more better-ly? Get better gear? Like it's pretty obvious when you wipe that you failed, you shouldn't need a DPS meter to tell you that.

I'm aware (or at least am led to understand) that savage raiders will be a bit more... Aggressive, about policing people who don't "cut it"? But like, that returns to me talking about the people being the problem. They could just as easily watch the aggression order and see that the RPR is inexplicably last in aggro under like, a BRD or something. I don't even raid and even I could tell you there's an issue there. And whether you kindly say "hey RPR, have you practiced your rotation? Are you geared up? So you have any questions? Looked like you weren't aggroed very high, which suggests your DPS might have been low?" Vs "RPR your parse was 7th percentile you're literally among the worst RPR players gtfo the party"

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ACT on its own isn't bad. By itself it is just a meter or calculator. ACT however acts as a hub for other plugins and features which does cross in questionable territory. ACT the program openly allows and hosts these other applications and that's why we get into some of this debate. Another such application is the FFXIV Quick Launcher. By itself, it to isn't seemingly a cheat device at first glance, but it acts as a hub for plugin creators to upload cheats into the game. Think of it like Emulators for a video game as well. The emulator isn't illegal or against the rule, but injecting the game into the program is. Maybe a bad comparison but I was hoping to find an example that painted a decent picture of my thought process.

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Originally Posted by KatiaRelanah

They aren't (all) cheats.

It's that cut and dry.

What performative enhancement does upscaled armor textures give you? Honest answer, stay on topic, don't whatabout Cactbot or whatever. I have conceded such gameplay/mechanical modifications are cheating by definition.

But how are texture mods cheating? By your very narrow (lol ironic af) definition of "not officially made by SE? It's a cheat!", you would consider them cheats. So how are they cheats?

What gameplay advantage does shinier visual armor give you?

How does it affect raids that you can see "nicks" on an armor texture?

How does Viera having hats give a WF Savage party their clear?

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You call them cheats so you can fall back on the "what is the advantage" narrative because that's what you have been trained to repeat. I'm open to calling it client manipulation or file manipulation? It's like you're hard coded, unable to accept that it's simply against the rules. You're free to rebel against these rules and even question them, but you're still breaking them.

Yoshi-P (FFXIV) on ACT and Third Party Tools (eng subs).

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Originally Posted by Renalt

Oh this argument again. Neat. Wonder if people will somehow come to an understanding or middle ground? No? It'll end in the same place as it started? Oh.

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I've conceded plenty of points about how some plugins are cheating, especially/particularly when they offer mechanical information in a means that is advantageous compared to another player's vanilla experience.

However, the problem is that, if the flavor of the argument is "are plugins cheating", then there needs to be an honest, mutually-agreed definition of cheating.

Simply saying "Not officially approved by SE" doesn't fly for me, because it flies in the face of any layperson definition of cheating for the sake of trying to claim victory before the debate is even had.

The long and short of it is that I want drtasteyummy (and anyone else who is in this weird black-and-white camp of "all plugins are cheats!" camp) to verbalize how something like armor with slightly more visual detail is cheating. As they keep retreating to the "well all plugins are cheats!" bailey, it's pointless, because no reasonable person would agree that such an aesthetic changes fits any understood definition of cheating.

It becomes a pointless feedback loop where they just declare it's cheating because... Well, it's cheating! Recursive definition. Pointless.

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Originally Posted by Remish

Think of it like Emulators for a video game as well. The emulator isn't illegal or against the rule, but injecting the game into the program is. Maybe a bad comparison but I was hoping to find an example that painted a decent picture of my thought process.

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Just in this case it is illegal i think, as official software should be allowed to connect to their servers and use their service...? But yes thats a good one.

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Originally Posted by drtasteyummy

You call them cheats so you can fall back on the "what is the advantage" narrative because that's what you have been trained to repeat. I'm open to calling it client manipulation or file manipulation? It's like you're hard coded, unable to accept that it's simply against the rules. You're free to rebel against these rules and even question them, but you're still breaking them.

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I don't use plugins.

Anyways, how do armor texture mods count as cheating? Still waiting for that answer.

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Originally Posted by KatiaRelanah

I don't use plugins.

Anyways, how do armor texture mods count as cheating? Still waiting for that answer.

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Maybe it'll help if I start, here's an example:

"Cactbot is cheating because it presents gameplay data in a way that allows players to perform with less expenditure of effort and/or situational awareness over players not using it"

See? That's how it should go. You declare the contention (cactbot is cheating) and then provide a warrant for your claims (the bolded part)

Your turn. Fill in the blank. "Texture mods are cheating because _____"

Oh lovely, the never-ending discussion about cactbot.

SE has never cared about third party tool usage as much as some people in this thread.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Remish

ACT on its own isn't bad. By itself it is just a meter or calculator. ACT however acts as a hub for other plugins and features which does cross in questionable territory. ACT the program openly allows and hosts these other applications and that's why we get into some of this debate.

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And I, to the best of my understanding, conceded/agreed that these sorts of ancillary/derivative programs could reasonably constitute cheating, and I've made no secret nor avoided such judgments.

My point was merely that I wasn't sure I understood the reply I mentioned there, in that I guess I was just clarifying that I don't know the full scope of ACT's functions as a standalone. The way they made it sound, ACT itself provided some sort of yardstick functionality where it tells you preemptively if you're gonna pass a check in a particular fight or whatever. If that's the case, yes, ACT contains functionality that constitutes cheating, agreed.

If it IS literally just "you're doing X damage, so and so is doing Y, the entire party is doing Z", then like, no, I will disagree that that's cheating, and that's what drives any sort of "defense" of ACT I'm making. Maybe because I don't raid, but by itself, I don't see any feasible way for a player to see they're doing X damage or someone else is doing Y and that helps the gameplay at all. What, are you gonna... Press your 1-2-3 buttons harder?

And in a previous reply I already made my point about using the data as a tool to bully, i.e. toxicity exists even without tools, you can watch the aggro list numbers in your party, etc. If a person wants to be toxic, they'll find a way to be toxic.