Did SE threaten to not make ultimates anymore?

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Originally Posted by Thoosa

Yeah and I’m not sure where you get the idea from that comment that every PF contains 7 other players using cheating addons, but no doubt in *some* parties people do….

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And how would you know?

And even if you somehow know the other 7 are using add on, did you get kicked from that party, or know the reason you get kicked from that party?

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Also, I have raided in PF since O1S, thanks.

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So you would know the situation you "presented" doesn't exist. And if your example is not meant to illustrate an actually problem ... then what exactly the point here?
Either:

- This is what happened, and it happened often enough to warrant action.

Or

- It doesn't happen, and so it's not a problem.

Maybe it's just me, but I don't think presenting an extreme hypothetical scenario and pretend it's an actual issue then cite it as the reason real action should be taken ... make a very convincing argument.

And like other had said, while attention is brought up due to the high profile of the incident, none of this is new. Heck, fflog is far more widely use than any of the other pluggin (and for the record, I hate it and had often spoken against it), yet I struggle to remember when was the last time I see a party kicking someone for low DPS. The protection policy SE have in place to insulate the PF community from the kind of toxicity you present has been working very well.

I'd prefer if they put less effort in to the Ultimates and focus on actual battle content for 99% of the player base. They make everything incredibly easy like the dungeons and alliance raids, or sadistically hard like savage and ultimate. The only real "balanced" battle content we get are the extreme trials every patch which is 1 fight. I'd love to see like a Minstrel's Ballad for alliance raids or dungeons as opposed to content for such a small niche.

And how would you know either?

My point is, if people are using addons in a group to help resolve mechanics for them and they kick someone else in that group who isn’t using any addons (e.g a ps player) for failing said mechanic it’s not very fair. They probably won’t know the other person is or is not using addons, but that’s not my point. It just creates a two tier environment with the advantage going to whoever is running addons which solve mechanics for them.

It’s not a debate about who might or might not be running addons.

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Originally Posted by Thoosa

And how would you know either?

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I'm not the one who making claim on hypothetical non-existence issue, why would the burden of proof fall on me? Even so, my proof is what you claim does not really happen in PF, despite add-on has been around for YEARS.

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My point is, if people are using addons in a group to help resolve mechanics for them and they kick someone else in that group who isn’t using any addons (e.g a ps player) for failing said mechanic it’s not very fair.

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Hypothetically speaking:

- if Valve go belly up, I will lose all access on my vast and expensive game library so I should never buy game on Steam.
- an undetected asteroid can fall in my city, so I should be prepared for it.

Those scenario why can "technically" happen, anyone want to to claim "this is an issue" will have to provide plenty of proofs to convince me action on my part are necessary. And no, deflecting the question back to me "well, you don't have proof it won't happen either!" isn't qualified as proof.

Honestly I don’t think you get what I’m trying to say, I’m not looking for proof.

Not going to respond any more.

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Originally Posted by Thoosa

Honestly I don’t think you get what I’m trying to say, I’m not looking for proof.

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ok ...

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Originally Posted by Thoosa

And how would you know either?

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If there is another way for my to understand you, feel free to enlighten me.

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Originally Posted by Thoosa

It’s not a debate about who might or might not be running addons.

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Funny enough, neither have I. Are you sure you understand me?

I never said people don't use addon, I only say it didn't create the issue you are hypothetically inventing.

I got a question that i cant wrap my head around. The question is why would they use the mods for Ultimate or Savage difficulty or whatever? Can they not play the legit way? Whats the point of using it?? Play great game, win stupid prizes. If you wanna break ToS, you must be a dumbass. You cant fix stupid. Especially when those people livestream and showed it on twitch or youtube or whatever thinking they will slip by GM lmfao. How dumb are these “streamers”? Lol if i was on pc, i wouldnt even use those mods that show me where to go and such. I respect and agreed by FF14 rules and ToS and i dont intend to break them either.

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Originally Posted by Raven2014

I never said people don't use addon, I only say it didn't create the issue you are hypothetically inventing.

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It's really not hard to grasp what Raven was going for. Thoosa said

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Just to give an example. If I’m trying to prog savage in PF and mess up a mechanic, but the rest of the group clear it because they are using mods to show them safe spaces etc, and they kick me because of it, that’s unfair and I’m at a disadvantage for playing the game as intended.

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The keyword is that "If". It's purely hypothetical, yet the fear she expressed was based around that hypothesis. Does that hypothesis translate to reality? That's what never got answered.

If it doesn't happen, then this is an unwarranted fear.
If it does, then fear not because that's punishable behaviour.

And even if it does, does it happen often to warrant such a fear or not? Because if it doesn't happen often, then there's little need to be hung up on the prospect of it happening. And in a community that is very much against that sort of behaviour, GMs that shoot first and ask questions never, and a company that really just wants to have a nice non-toxic community, you'll find that there are plenty of things protecting you and that you can justifiably retaliate.

You'd sooner be in the clear for anything happening than they would. The general gist of using parses is, specifically because of the environment around them and the retaliation that they'd get if reported, that you don't ask and don't tell. If you feel like the person isn't up to par for you based on parses, turn them down gently and just find someone else, while giving them the chance to find some group that isn't as restrictive. And most groups aren't.

Usually if they talk about parsing at all, it's because people know eachother overall. If not, then they're really risking themselves to be slapped in the face for it.

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Originally Posted by AlexaAura

I'd prefer if they put less effort in to the Ultimates and focus on actual battle content for 99% of the player base. They make everything incredibly easy like the dungeons and alliance raids, or sadistically hard like savage and ultimate. The only real "balanced" battle content we get are the extreme trials every patch which is 1 fight. I'd love to see like a Minstrel's Ballad for alliance raids or dungeons as opposed to content for such a small niche.

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Savage leans more towards that balance category nowadays and is nowhere close to being "sadistically hard". Furthermore, Ultimate is almost entirely made using recycled content. Omega has a single new model and arena despite being a near twenty minute long encounter. Even the cut scene is the exact same one from normal mode. Euphrosyne likely cost far more in terms of asset and design than Omega did because nearly everything is brand new. So even if they did cancel Ultimate going forward, it wouldn't lead to much or any new, easier encounters.

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Originally Posted by Midareyukki

And even if it does, does it happen often to warrant such a fear or not? Because if it doesn't happen often, then there's little need to be hung up on the prospect of it happening. And in a community that is very much against that sort of behaviour, GMs that shoot first and ask questions never, and a company that really just wants to have a nice non-toxic community, you'll find that there are plenty of things protecting you and that you can justifiably retaliate.

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And if you look at how widespread addon use it and how rare it spilled into the in game community due to SE's policing ... I feel I can be bold enough to say this is probably one of their most successful policy.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

Savage leans more towards that balance category nowadays and is nowhere close to being "sadistically hard". Furthermore, Ultimate is almost entirely made using recycled content.

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Ultimate earns its place as the only content that you need a certain decree of skill to have a kill, no matter what (unless you bought it). Savage no matter how hard it appears to be in the beginning, has always been the case of resilience. It's something that with enough effort and time, you "eventually" will clear it, even if your skill floor barely improve at all.

Also, people who think Ultimate is pointless simply due to the low % of participation kinda miss the point of marketing. It's like saying instead of pouring million into marketing a company should spent all that money into improve their product instead. While that sounds like a good call, there are well documented, scientifically proven reasons for why companies spend large chunk of money into marketing. And frankly even if you gonna look at Ultimate as a marketing scheme rather than actual content, it's still one of the most meaningful way to go about it IMO.

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Originally Posted by Rayne6665

I got a question that i cant wrap my head around.

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Because completion of the task isn't the goal, it's the reward that came with the completion that is the main goal. So if there is a way to "skip" the task and still reap the reward, most human will take that option without blinking.

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Originally Posted by Raven2014

Because completion of the task isn't the goal, it's the reward that came with the completion that is the main goal. So if there is a way to "skip" the task and still reap the reward, most human will take that option without blinking.

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Because they're weak willed chumps that can't handle failure.

Except you really don't need an overly high level of skill to complete Ultimate either. It's still just basic memorization with some pattern recognition and spatial awareness tossed in, same as all the other content in the game. With enough time, you will complete it if you keep pushing for it. Being able to memorize the entire fight in a short period of time and react to mechanics as they come out, yeah, that's some skill. But to say they take more skill than savage? Nah. Just more time.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

Except you really don't need an overly high level of skill to complete Ultimate either. It's still just basic memorization with some pattern recognition and spatial awareness tossed in, same as all the other content in the game. With enough time, you will complete it if you keep pushing for it. Being able to memorize the entire fight in a short period of time and react to mechanics as they come out, yeah, that's some skill. But to say they take more skill than savage? Nah. Just more time.

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Respectfully disagree. This is like saying remembering the multiplication and remembering numerical theory formula is the same 'cause they're all just memorization. Or even most complicate formula are just basically sequence of basic arithmetic at the end. Even if you don't account for memorization, the reason why Savage get easier over time because the missing skill can be compensated over time. This is why I mentioned the skill improvement over time part.

If someone is bad enough to never execute a mechanic successfully, and that person skill never improve.

- In savage: eventually either they get the gear, or the fight get neft, or both that even if they never execute that mechanically successful, it will eventually get to a point they don't need to do the mechanic but still can pass it.
- In Ultimate: you either execute the mechanic correctly, or you never get pass it. It's irrelevant how long it takes, if eventually you can pass that mech, that mean your skill had improved. That improvement under savage is optional, in Ultimate it is a much.

Same-thing can be said about rotation and such. In Ultimate you must attend the necessary mastery to meet the check. In savage, even if you never do, eventually either the system or other players will compensate for you.


I think you're talking from a top down perspective. To players who are "already" at Ultimate level, then yes, the difference may really just come down to time. But from a bottom up POV, then savage and Ultimate are on 2 completely different tier in far more way than just the time it took.

You know what? Fair points. The two different perspectives are very difficult to reconcile with one another.

I would also say time is a factor. Savages can typically be completed with less total investment due to the fights tending to be shorter and having fewer mechanics. For many adult players, even finding time to do savages can be a bit challenging. This can and often does place ultimate squarely out of their reach, even should they be willing to attempt it.

Also I want to add, Ultimate demand something that maybe as important as skill set if not more from the players: focus and consistency. Especially the latter. In my experience, what often make and break an Ultimate group is not really the skill floor because most people who even want to attempt it would probably pass the skill floor check. But it's a completely different issue whether you can delivery consistency performance and maintain focus to reach new mechanic and not spending 80% of the raid night re-prog various mech you already past.

And if you go to any recruiter or manager and ask them "is consistency a skill", I bet most of them will tell you that's one of the skill. I personally know a few players that can consider a top players if you look at the performance ceiling in savage. At the sametime, half of them I sincerely doubt have the consistency to persist through an Ultimate.

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then there's little need to be hung up on the prospect of it happening.

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It should not happen at all. The game has been tested, as has been said over and over again WITHOUT the use of 3rd party addons to beat the instance, so no there IS no need for third party programs.

I also want to go on record saying there IS a need for Ultimate, that I support it 10000%, that the players that want and love this kind of content should have it and more power to them. What has been lost here, I think, is that this incident has soured things for the players that dont cheat, whose skill and prowess makes this a worthy challenge they can rise to defeat.

Those who cheat have more or less almost ruined it for those who dont..I hope that Yoshi was only thinking about it and that more Ultimates will come down the line.

A few bad apples should not wreck things for the rest.

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Originally Posted by VelKallor

It should not happen at all. The game has been tested, as has been said over and over again WITHOUT the use of 3rd party addons to beat the instance, so no there IS no need for third party programs.

I also want to go on record saying there IS a need for Ultimate, that I support it 10000%, that the players that want and love this kind of content should have it and more power to them. What has been lost here, I think, is that this incident has soured things for the players that dont cheat, whose skill and prowess makes this a worthy challenge they can rise to defeat.

Those who cheat have more or less almost ruined it for those who dont..I hope that Yoshi was only thinking about it and that more Ultimates will come down the line.

A few bad apples should not wreck things for the rest.

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Current evidance is that this is not true.
Only group that claimed to clear it, cheated to do it.

I've not seen anybody else come forward.

100% of all clears required cheating.

We will see what the actual ratio turns out to be latter.


And the saying is "a few bad apples ruin the basket" for a reason. They DID spoil things. If the reputation is that this is a game you can cheat in, and that high end content requires cheating... burn it to the ground, not one stick left standing against another, for nothing of importance will be lost.

BTW just to go back to a point made earlier...it doesnt matter what he does from now on, he can make as much money as he likes, but for the rest of his life, the name Lance Armstrong and the words "drug cheat" will always be synonymous.

I very much doubt thats something anyone would be proud of.

I get that he's fed up with cheaters and ppl crying about 3rd party tools ruining the game but even he knows the reality.

There's always going to be cheaters. And they should be punished and stopped but it should never affect others that don't cheat their way through content.

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Originally Posted by ICountFrom0

Current evidance is that this is not true.
Only group that claimed to clear it, cheated to do it.

I've not seen anybody else come forward.

100% of all clears required cheating.

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7 or 8 groups cleared it, multiples VODs have been released (including a SCH who showed all processes in his task manager mid-pull to prove no third-party tools were used). And Kindred cleared it very recently after streaming their prog from start to finish.

Darn, people starting to show their task managers?

What will it be in next Ultimate? Taking pic of their gaming desk/console/controller/monitor? Lmao

Wild.

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

Darn, people starting to show their task managers?

What will it be in next Ultimate? Taking pic of their gaming desk/console/controller/monitor? Lmao

Wild.

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After the _UNNAMED incident, people are very quick to accuse everyone of being a cheater so I believe it was needed to calm the witch hunt down. (Mind you, there are people who want to believe he faked his Task Manager...)

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Originally Posted by Kazhar

After the _UNNAMED incident, people are very quick to accuse everyone of being a cheater so I believe it was needed to calm the witch hunt down. (Mind you, there are people who want to believe he faked his Task Manager...)

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Can never win against those crowd... lol

Anyway, Kindred cleared with all 8 members of their team streaming, most of them from day one, with thousands of eyes watching their entire prog from start to finish. So could the wild accusations that nobody ever cleared without cheating just stop now?

Give Yoshi-P a widdle baby pacifier.

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Originally Posted by MistyMew

Give Yoshi-P a widdle baby pacifier.

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Why? Because he asked a valid question? Cause of all things I do understand where he comes from.

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Originally Posted by Kazhar

Anyway, Kindred cleared with all 8 members of their team streaming, most of them from day one, with thousands of eyes watching their entire prog from start to finish. So could the wild accusations that nobody ever cleared without cheating just stop now?

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It will never end now.

Every raid group is gonna be scrutinized. Especially since cheating took place in DSR, TOP and interestingly enough also Panda Savage tiers as well. And it is now suspected that any other World First in the past had cheating as well.

So unless every player streams their runs it's going to be met with criticism.

Here is a informative video about the whole situation.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_5yYV4Ahetg

It's a bad look for XIV these days.

Ultimates exist to give savage players something to do between savages instead of unsubbing.

As long as they fulfill this purpose with minimal resource investment (ultimates use recycled assets until last boss so they should not be that expensive) they will be made.

That’s what I was trying to say yesterday, maybe badly. The more controversy that shows up with addons and people being caught using them (for world firsts) doesn’t give a good look to 14.

In the interim they could add a condition of “you must stream” if you’re participating in world first races.

But in the end I think they will be forced to technically deal with the addon situation.

He feels a lot of frustration towards the Community but I hope he looks at the silver lining.....He isn't the producer and director of Warthunnder.

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Originally Posted by Mosha

He feels a lot of frustration towards the Community but I hope he looks at the silver lining.....He isn't the producer and director of Warthunnder.

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Did you know defense contractors have started adding questions about War Thunder to their hiring screenings?

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

It's a bad look for XIV these days.

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Originally Posted by Thoosa

That’s what I was trying to say yesterday, maybe badly. The more controversy that shows up with addons and people being caught using them (for world firsts) doesn’t give a good look to 14.

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It's not the game that looks bad. Every game has its cheaters using third party mods. Even WoW, which, has an official world first race, is not immune to drama over it. While add-ins created within the scope of their content creator rules are allowed, there are still others that turn to third party programs at times.

It's the player community that looks bad. Here are players that cheat over a race that does not officially exist just to say they're first or because they don't want to put in the appropriate effort to beat a fight. SE has told us not to do it and has left us the honor system. That would be enough for any reasonable adult. They would repay that faith by honoring the developers' request.

It's sad to see that some lack that honor. It's a reflection on them, not on the game.

The modding community (the ones that provide the mods) could help and not update until the world first race is over. And if possible disable the mods that help with this.

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Originally Posted by Kazhar

Anyway, Kindred cleared with all 8 members of their team streaming, most of them from day one, with thousands of eyes watching their entire prog from start to finish. So could the wild accusations that nobody ever cleared without cheating just stop now?

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The new accusation will be that they streamed just the game, and also had overlays going on that just werent showing up in streams. The ride will never end. The trust has been shattered.

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Originally Posted by ReynTime

The modding community (the ones that provide the mods) could help and not update until the world first race is over. And if possible disable the mods that help with this.

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Why would they? None of them give a hoot about the world race nor do the majority of people using these tools. If you were to poll people about delaying third party tool updates or simply throwing out the world race altogether, the overwhelming majority would likely favor the latter. This is especially true of the roleplay community who simply want their pretty outfits and don't give the slightest damn over battle content.

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Originally Posted by Ivtrix

Did you know defense contractors have started adding questions about War Thunder to their hiring screenings?

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Yeah, I saw the one about Raytheon. I think my favourite part is a lot of the leaks have been just to win arguments on the forums.

I almost hope they act on that threat.

But knowing SE they would probably use that dev time on PvP or Island Sanctuary which I both dislike.

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Originally Posted by SillyCrow

I almost hope they act on that threat.

But knowing SE they would probably use that dev time on PvP or Island Sanctuary which I both dislike.

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Just for you it will be pvp taking place in island sanctuaries

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Originally Posted by Ivtrix

Just for you it will be pvp taking place in island sanctuaries

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Would make an awesome hunger-style game tbh.

Probably one of the most memorable pvp-event I remember from GW2.