There's too much strawmanning people who criticize the game

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Originally Posted by Skiros

That's weird because I literally just quoted the guy verbatim.

"Some criticisms are not warranted" is literally quoted verbatim for example.

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Like I said, given the blunt tone such is not easily expressed, especially through text form, and personally I'd rather skim-read and preserve my mental health. If that were you intent then I'll apologise regardless.

Anyway off-topic, but your server got world 2nd of DSR if I'm to recall? Congrats.

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

Alright so you mentioned Legion raids and PvP. How are those different compared to other types of content in other MMOs? What sort of exciting and new challenges Lost Ark's Legion raiding does that warrants it as a "good" example of lasting content? What does ESO's PvP system do that makes them stand out from any other MMO's PvP that is considered valuable retention?

Not trying to be mean but I want to better understand where you are coming from.

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Legion raids saved Lost Ark in Korea. It is their winning formula. It's lasting by the nature of how it is structured; the overall game progression. With FF, there is no real reason to go back and do harder content beyond getting BiS, your mount, or ultimate clear. They also release more content on this level more often than FF. Speaking on Lost Ark could be pretty much it's own topic. ESO's Cyrodill PvP is structured in a way that makes it lasting. The tug of war of factions vying map control at all times of the day, players trying to earn the title of 'Emperor', etc.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

Yes google, because I dont remember every thread number i visit. I don't have photographic memory. Apparently threads on certain requests only matter if they are from this year or something. I'm surte I can find other threads more recently with more time, but I dont really care enough.

I mean, you have a post from 2013 linked in your signature and apparently that is still relevant.

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Context matters. My signature isn't quoting a random forum user/thread but the game's producer's statements regarding the housing system which turned out to be a giant lie and a betrayal of trust.

And my point is if you can't recall anything the sort in recent times... then maybe it's not as requested as you think it in your head to be? That you may be cherrypicking a complain that you may have seen once or twice and that left a big impression on you but it's not a recurrent complain?

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Originally Posted by Sicno

Context matters. My signature isn't quoting a random forum user/thread but the game's producer's statements regarding the housing system which turned out to be a giant lie and a betrayal of trust.

And my point is if you can't recall anything the sort in recent times... then maybe it's not as requested as you think it in your head to be? That you may be cherrypicking a complain that you may have seen once or twice and that left a big impression on you but it's not a recurrent complain?

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2019 is pretty recent, all things considered. And its been brought up in other threads, again, a 2 second google search. The XIV forum search function is terrible so... That's all you're getting.

And AGAIN, it was an EXAMPLE of people asking for the game to change fundamentally.

And the change you have quoted was REQUESTED by players so.... Cherrypicking things to make it look like betrayal?

When housing released it had no demolition system. And it was bad because people quit who had houses and never came back.

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Originally Posted by Sicno

Context matters. My signature isn't quoting a random forum user/thread but the game's producer's statements regarding the housing system which turned out to be a giant lie and a betrayal of trust.

And my point is if you can't recall anything the sort in recent times... then maybe it's not as requested as you think it in your head to be? That you may be cherrypicking a complain that you may have seen once or twice and that left a big impression on you but it's not a recurrent complain?

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Source for Sicno's signature quote. Just search for "1:14:22". Found via googling the quote.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

And the change you have quoted was REQUESTED by players so.... Cherrypicking things to make it look like betrayal?

When housing released it had no demolition system. And it was bad because people quit who had houses and never came back.

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Even if it was requested by players, the playerbase has grown a lot since and the outlook has changed. Moreover, players also requested a lot of stuff back in the day and now are taking their word back. Example: People wanted more gender-locked gear in HSW, but the trend started reversing in Stormblood once people started getting more gender-locked gear.

The source for this one, by the way, is my own research late into Stormblood by searching these very forums for a trend. People asking for them outright stopped existing once Stormblood was released, upon which the demand was for the exact opposite.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

2019 is pretty recent, all things considered. And its been brought up in other threads, again, a 2 second google search. The XIV forum search function is terrible so... That's all you're getting.

And AGAIN, it was an EXAMPLE of people asking for the game to change fundamentally.

And the change you have quoted was REQUESTED by players so.... Cherrypicking things to make it look like betrayal?

When housing released it had no demolition system. And it was bad because people quit who had houses and never came back.

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...People requested the demolitions? And your "example" really stuck out in a thread about strawmanning to "win" arguments and shut down opinions/feedback.

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Originally Posted by Sicno

...People requested the demolitions? And your "example" really stuck out in a thread about strawmanning to "win" arguments and shut down opinions/feedback.

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Demolitions weren't added until 3.1. A full 2 years after housing was added. And there were a LOT of complaint threads back then about people having housing and never logging in.

https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodes...3e7ccabefa9954

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Originally Posted by Ransu

There's a lot of content I don't like in FFXIV, but I also don't feel compelled to log in every single day like some of ya'll do which is part of the problem. Its OK to not play every day. The developers try to spread out the type of content they release and have a variety of content. Focusing too much on a single thing would eventually lead to less content. Would you rather they created a "dynamic" content that's just ultra grindy that will hold you over for 6-12 months with no patches in between? Personally I prefer getting consistent updates every few months over what other MMO's do where they drop a "big update" and then go silent for a year.

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At the moment I don't feel "compelled" to do more than log in a few hours for each patch, and I am done with it. I'm enjoying the new PVP mode, so I am keeping it running. I don't believe anyone is asking for content where they feel "compelled" to log in to grind for hours on end, so much as content that they can put some hours into each week and keep them engaged... the PVP content is a step in the right direction here, and perhaps the Criterion dungeons will be too, who knows, but this game's PVP remains pretty weak in many ways, and not everyone enjoys it, so I don't blame people for not taking it up.

The arguments always seem to be pitched on an all or nothing basis. I like the game just about enough to sub to it for the moment. It does not mean I don't think it could be better, and for that critical feedback is essential. I'm going to quote this poster because they tend to word this stuff well:

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

Then you aren't paying attention to what's being said. People aren't asking for three hours of daily activity, we're asking for a given patch cycle to last longer than a week or two when you're a veteran player. Adding content with longevity doesn't mean inherently punishing players who have less time to play.

Would the relic being released in 6.15 "punish" you? PvP is actually a decent example of precisely what many of us want. While it does have a finite lifespan in terms of rewards, the content itself is pretty fun. Now imagine if multiple pieces of content released with a similar foundation. If you weren't interested in PvP, you'd have say, the relic. Or maybe Criterion dungeons have a separate gear structure unique to that piece of content which you can continuously improve. In subsequent patches it gets easier to "catch up". That alone keeps the balanced approach of not making players with less time feel rushed but gives players with the time to spare something worth sinking their teeth into.

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My hope is the Criterion dungeons fill the gap of adding more midcore content, but we'll see.

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Originally Posted by Lauront

My hope is the Criterion dungeons fill the gap of adding more midcore content, but we'll see.

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I have a bad feeling that Criterion are going to be tied to the relic and used as a replacement or augmentation for Bozja/Eureka style content. The touted scalability is probably just done to ensure it won't run into the same population related issues as Bozja/Eureka.

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

Legion raids saved Lost Ark in Korea. It is their winning formula. It's lasting by the nature of how it is structured; the overall game progression. With FF, there is no real reason to go back and do harder content beyond getting BiS, your mount, or ultimate clear. They also release more content on this level more often than FF. Speaking on Lost Ark could be pretty much it's own topic. ESO's Cyrodill PvP is structured in a way that makes it lasting. The tug of war of factions vying map control at all times of the day, players trying to earn the title of 'Emperor', etc.

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You're still not explaining how exactly those two features make it "long lasting" though. Whats different between Legion raids and any other type of raid content in MMOs? Is it content that constantly changes up the encounters? Is it a rogue like sort of instance? Is there's a set end to them if I'm a high end raider? whats to keep me from playing them if I already have BiS in Lost Ark? Details please, because what you just described can be said literally about any other content in other games.

Same with ESO's PvP, why do people care about taking control over an area? Is it because you get a benefit for everyone within that faction who does questing in Cyrodill such as boosted exp, better rewards? (ala Burning Crusade's world PvP) How is earning a title in pvp any different from earning rewards in PvP modes on other games?

I'm still not being sold what exactly those two games's features have that are so long lasting you'd wanna slap yo mama. What if I'm one of the people that doesnt care for high end raiding content or pvp? Its these kinds of questions you need to ask yourself what you like about them before you compare them to similar features in games.

Another question. Couldnt the same be said for those who recently jumped into Lost Ark and other MMOs that they have a lot of content to go through so you wouldnt be complaining about any sort of drought, just like how we dismiss new FFXIV players who'm also recently started and they have a lot to go through?

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Originally Posted by Kaurhz

Like I said, given the blunt tone such is not easily expressed, especially through text form, and personally I'd rather skim-read and preserve my mental health. If that were you intent then I'll apologise regardless.

Anyway off-topic, but your server got world 2nd of DSR if I'm to recall? Congrats.

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Yep, it was pretty hype in our FC Discord.

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

Another question. Couldnt the same be said for those who recently jumped into Lost Ark and other MMOs that they have a lot of content to go through so you wouldnt be complaining about any sort of drought, just like how we dismiss new FFXIV players who'm also recently started and they have a lot to go through?

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I criticized Lost Ark plenty. It has much more content for raiders but it's extremely casual-unfriendly.

In the span of one year (2021) Lost Ark released three times the amount of raiding (in terms of encounter length) than FF14.

FF14's high-end raids (Ultimate) are much harder and more polished, but for a LOT of high-end raiders these days we are basically only playing the game for Ultimates, and even Savage is an afterthought now.

Lost Ark's raids are mechanically simpler (it cringes me every time to see people saying it's the most difficult MMO) but they are way more engaging and have higher replayability because of their random nature and jobs that are much more nuanced than FF14 jobs.

I have absolutely zero desire to reclear any Savage raid or even old Ultimates these days. Even speedrunning is boring now since it's just crit-farming.

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

There are three stages to this, I think:

1. Awe and wonder at this new world you're playing in, including the story
   
2. Experiencing the fun of being competent enough in the game to do harder content
   
3. Boredom because, for the most part, every single MMO out there produces further content on an erratic schedule.

That last one depends on the company producing the MMO. For Square Enix, if they say "4 months" it will be 4 months. In other games, not-so-much. <memories of waiting for 10 months until the next WoW expansion came out>.

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That is brutally true.
I will say I do like that FFXIV is consistent in its patch cycles. It just wish each patch had a little more variety. Hopefully 6.2 will be awesome with criterion, island sanctuary, and new raid tier / ex it sounds a like a nice well rounded patch and I think they mentioned another palace of the dead type thing unless that is 6.3. I will say it does feel kind of boring that there is little character progression / gear progression for the odd numbered patches as well. And the odd number patches typically don't have as much weight of content behind them because of this IMO. And the x.x5 patches are what ever.

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Originally Posted by Skiros

Square Enix should do nothing to improve Hrothgar hairstyles because I do not care about them. The intensity of the impact that Hrothgar hairstyles have is minimal in the long run. The Hrothgar hairstyles you have right now is not unsatisfactory. It doesn't hurt to be a bit realistic to stop asking for better Hrothgar hairstyles. Making Hrothgar hairstyles is draining dev resources and there's no guarantee they can always focus on the game to deliver it. If you don't like Hrothgar hairstyles please quit the game. Not every criticism is warranted.

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The fact that some people even liked your post to begin with says a lot about the community as a whole.

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Originally Posted by Raskbuck

The fact that some people even liked your post to begin with says a lot about the community as a whole.

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I guess sarcasm is too difficult to detect.

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Originally Posted by Skiros

The intensity of the impact that Hrothgar hairstyles have is minimal in the long run.

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Originally Posted by Midareyukki

what really matters is the intensity of the impact they have in the long run

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Originally Posted by Skiros

The Hrothgar hairstyles you have right now is not unsatisfactory.

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Originally Posted by Midareyukki

But it doesn't mean that what we have now is unsatisfactory.

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Originally Posted by Skiros

It doesn't hurt to be a bit realistic to stop asking for better Hrothgar hairstyles.

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Originally Posted by Midareyukki

I understand your concerns with content not being given on a regular basis, but it doesn't hurt to be a bit realistic.

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Originally Posted by Skiros

It doesn't hurt to be a bit realistic to stop asking for better Hrothgar hairstyles.

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Originally Posted by Midareyukki

I understand your concerns with content not being given on a regular basis, but it doesn't hurt to be a bit realistic.

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Originally Posted by GaiusDrakon

I guess sarcasm is too difficult to detect.





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Oh my. The butthurt. Ascended hemorrhoids!

You know, I honestly feel happy for this xD thanks for the notoriety

too bad I'm not into trolls, so... sorry sweetie, better luck next time

Imagine being so butthurt, so incredibly maldy, that you post the exact same shit in two threads. That's not sad, that's just depressing. Hilarious, but depressing.

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Originally Posted by Lauront

This is the kind of thing the OP is about... and of course people want content that is more relevant to their interests. Not sure what the expectation is here? To clamour for content you'll never do? Like Theodric said, variety is good, but why would you advocate for more of what you're not interested in, particularly if you feel you're not getting enough of what you do want?

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I'm really not interested in Island Sanctuary, haven't tried the new PvP, don't touch Savage or Ultimate, but I'm very glad SE is thinking of people who do like that content and are working to include it. I advocate for it for the good of the game, so players can find something they enjoy. I'm very limited in my own content. I often need to find new goals for myself. And I think anyone who does limit themselves is going to find themselves at that point. I also agree with the other poster that if content is designed to exist indefinitely, it will pass a point where it's more abusive to players than beneficial. It doesn't allow players to ever finish their goal and move to their next goal.

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Originally Posted by LittleImp

I have a bad feeling that Criterion are going to be tied to the relic and used as a replacement or augmentation for Bozja/Eureka style content. The touted scalability is probably just done to ensure it won't run into the same population related issues as Bozja/Eureka.

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That's a thought which has crossed my mind, but I hope that's not the case. Yoshi did say here they were thinking about the feedback in relation to more challenging 4 man content, and didn't wish to elaborate further at the time, and Criterion dungeons do seem to be the only thing that might fit that bill based on their current content release schedule. Let's hope this isn't misplaced optimism.

Pretty much the only time they've been correct that content is actually hard is Ultimate fights.

MFW "new challenging dungeons" in the Endwalker announcement.