Trick Attack

it was probably more a dungeon nerf than opener nerf
because you could doton on trash pack quickly hide and refresh so you would have doton + 2 mudra charges to use in AOE

Cant recall the devs ever balancing things for dungeons truth be told

If they do, I'm very surprised stuff like bloodwhetting is just allowed to exist. Then again, the job balance team could just be incompetent

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Originally Posted by aloneatsea

My expectations going into these patch notes were low and yet I'm still disappointed.

Apparently the chances weren't even for balance. It was just to put everything on a two minute timer.

And the doton removal was because having it in the opener was annoying for tanks.

I... What a big middle finger to ninjas. Jesus.

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TA already lined up with the two min timing tho o_O.

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Originally Posted by Duskane

it was probably more a dungeon nerf than opener nerf
because you could doton on trash pack quickly hide and refresh so you would have doton + 2 mudra charges to use in AOE

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They explicitly stated that it was because pulling into Doton when used in an opener was annoying for Tanks.

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Originally Posted by Kolsykol

TA already lined up with the two min timing tho o_O.

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Don't try to think about it too hard. Once you realise the devs can't count or think, everything will be easier to swallow

> Depending on the response, NIN or SAM might be lumped into DRG for a huge adjustments coming 6.21

According to a translator on discord. Oh god, if this trend continues, ninja is gonna become even more unfun. I rather they stick with this instead of trying anything again. I don't know how it can be worse, but they'll figure out a way

Personally, I can accept the 6.1 changes in NIN, especially it boosts personal damage and overall you just need to re-adjust the timing of 'mug' to synergize with other party members.
But looking at all of the job adjustments, I also fear that the unique point of each job might disappear at some point. somehow I feel a strong will to standardize things.

True, adjusting each skill that is similar to each other into 1 standard, make it easier for players to adjust their playstyle when changing job.
but it will also quickly become boring and the uniqueness of each job will be decreased, I prefer skill that do slightly different (whether might be better or worse) but represent my job properly
as long as the overall balance is good, I don't mind some unbalance on each skill (e.g. i don't mind my AoE have lesser area or damage than other jobs)

True, it's good to synergize your team rotation to the same burst window. but I feel better when players can somehow align the burst window with their own coordination.

True, RNG can sometime annoying. but in my opinion it is something that generally accepted to exist in a game, and it is also what makes each run feel somehow a little different.

In conclusion, I already respect the developer for their efforts to balance things out. it is difficult to find a proper balance, but I hope each jobs can still have their unique point stands out.

Apparently another post will be made later on yoshi-p's remarks on nin. I guess the jp ninbros are very unhappy

I'm interested in seeing how they will justify their changes. They've said not changing the jobs at all is easier for the dev team, so why they are making their own jobs harder and generating animosity towards themselves is something I am interested to read about. I hope it won't just be a paragraph, but actually detailed. If they fully lay out their reasoning and considerations, that will at least help.

It seems that the LL going over the changes was almost brought to a halt as NIN players overwhelming provided feedback -- mostly expression confusion or dissatisfaction, as I understand it. It'll be interesting to see what the developers have to say about these still baffling changes to Ninja.


And they killed prepull Doton...

Out of curiosity, when yoshi-p previously said further statements will be made during live letters, how long did it take for such statements to be published? My memory is pretty hazy, but I recall such statements being published pretty quickly. I hope this wait is proof that the devs are spending more time and care on ninja on the inevitable 4th ninja change in 6 months, but my doubts persist nonetheless.

I keep hitting trick attack first and forgetting about mug being the raid wide. Feelsbadman. Nothing like having to unlearn years worth of muscle memory for no reason.

Fucking up people's muscle memory is the theme of this expansion. Newfound adventure!

I am largely confused as to why people are so upset with Trick Attack now being personal and Mug being everyone else. 6.0 saw burst cool downs being moved to two minute cycles. With trick attack being one minute, you'd end up with odd cycles where TA wasn't really providing a whole lot of extra benefit because the burst cool downs on everyone else were still cooling down. Mug changes this, while also making it something other than a Ninki bot. Realistically I think Mug not being a Ninki bot is what everyone is actually upset about, but in a effort to not be parroting what everyone else is already complaining about we have folks who are complaining that TA better lines up with everyone else's cool downs.

Do I think there should be some other way to generate 50 Ninki outside of Meisui? I don't really know. I'm just a casual player here. But I do know that folks complaining about mug increasing party damage in line with every other two minute cool down is a bit silly.

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Originally Posted by Memoranda

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Imo a damage buff every 60s is just more fun and flows better for NIN, that said my main issue with it is that it's just a worse and less interesting Brotherhood...
At least Brotherhood gives Chakra, Mug gives some Ninki wow how exciting /s.
Even if it's 5s longer it's still only 5% too and less fun.
MNK basically just stole our niche and NIN has been losing it with every expansion in chunks...
NIN is just a worse MNK now that doesn't share gear with anyone.
MNK even got a Healing utility buff too, long are the days gone when NIN was the utility DPS which we also essentially paid not only a DPS tax for but also again not sharing gear with anyone...
Same with RPR they got the shield + heal too.

I dunno what odd windows there are in the current tier nothing comes to mind only reason I could think of is if people pop cd's at dumb times during limit cut in P2S or on adds in P3S.
Which I probably will next week because of muscle memory because I could throw in Mug before the limit cut mechanic which I can't now I have to hold it until after it's done which I already had to with TA nothing changed there.

It's just boring, TA being a 60s and more frequent buff was just different and more fun than every 120s the feedback of frequently putting it up for the party felt rewarding.
This was just another step towards homogenization only that it's less fun than what others got.
Even RPR too, RPR gets a big juicy skill on top of it + 50 shroud gauge.
Mug just feels like a complete joke in comparison to Brotherhood and Arcane Circle.

But no to me it just sounds like people are doing something dumb if it drifts whether it's the NIN or the others in the party.
At least in the current content.

Why people are upset is simple really. Old trick made ninja unique, it was the only raid buff that happened every minute. I don't know about other players, but I enjoy bringing something to a raid that can only be done by my job - ninja has a solid unique selling point with its buff, in a game where buffs are honestly not that exciting. There are multiple crit buffs, various 3%/5% damage buffs, etc. that in my opinion, kinda blurr together. Old trick wasn't just for show either, classes such as drk and dancer can take advantage of this one minute buff and unload their resources of edge of shadows/fan dance into the odd minute trick windows, and it just feels good knowing that you brought some gameplay variation to the raid that they otherwise would have lacked. Knowing there is something to set you apart enhances gameplay enjoyment, and I think it fits with the general theme of jobs in classic ff. With so many jobs to choose from, they need to be designed to set themselves apart, e.g. drk reduces hp to deal damage, something only it can do, while only time mage can cast haste. Ffxiv fails a lot in this regard of setting jobs apart, with ninja being one of the few jobs that can be said to have a proper niche in ffxiv. Removing old trick I think is a bad thing both as a final fantasy game, as well as a mmo game since it reduces gameplay variety.

I'm not sure why you think people are upset about mug not being a ninki bot. I can't speak for everyone, but I can confidently assert a lot of people did not give a shit about Old mug. I don't think anyone is advocating for mug to return to being a ninki bot, or advocating it to be anything at all due to how forgettable of a skill it is. I think people are angry at mug simply because it's replacing trick's unique 1 minute raid buff with another dime a dozen, 5% damage buff on a 2 minute cooldown. Ironically, this change that was supposed to make mug more interesting just made it a even more of a run of the mill forgettable skill. I would love for them to rework mug. Perhaps trick can be changed to being a 3% damage buff every minute, while mug gives ninki as well as a personal damage 10% up buff every 2 minutes. I feel like that will accomplish the dev's goals of making ninja less rdps dependent, while still keeping it unique in regards to its raidbuff. Perhaps 3% is too big of a nerf, I am shit at math, but I think something along the lines of what I have suggested would be better than what we currently have.

The muscle memory is so weird when I know logically what Mug does now but can't get my hands to press it the way I should. It's still so new to me

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Originally Posted by NobleWinter

The muscle memory is so weird when I know logically what Mug does now but can't get my hands to press it the way I should. It's still so new to me

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It's not rly so bad in what I assume the opener is ( gonna look if it has been updated yet ), because I just move Mug to after Gust Slash and double Bunshin.
In P2S next week tho I am probably gonna throw Mug at the boss before it goes away on limit cut just due to muscle memory, in action I think it's just going to slip my mind maybe in P3S too.

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Originally Posted by Memoranda

removed for brevity

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You'd be shocked at how much benefit odd minute Trick Attacks provided -- not just in damage, but also in fun for other jobs. Gunbreaker I believe has natural burst at 1 minute, Warrior now lines up, even White Mage has a one minute Afflatus Misery, and other jobs like Dark Knight, Reaper and Samurai are able to pool excess resources for odd minute Tricks. These jobs benefit from and are rewarded for lining up their burst at odd minutes in a world where one-minute party buffs exist.

Now, they do not, and there is no reward for playing deliberately at any point other than the two minute mark.

Not to mention, Mug already had a role to play in Ninja's rotation -- a Ninki gainer. That, and it was already considered redundant or something that could be removed, given how little it plays into the class fantasy. Now it's overloaded with effects, and Ninja's party buff doesn't even look or sound cool to balm the burn of now being exactly like Monk.

Noticing more people would be happy with the change if theyd just changed name of mug and its animation/visual to something more interesting, lol...

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Originally Posted by Hanayumi

Noticing more people would be happy with the change if theyd just changed name of mug and its animation/visual to something more interesting, lol...

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I don't rly care about the name I just think it doesn't make thematic sense.
My issues with it are gameplay related.

Yeah lmao. Have you seen mug's animation? It's the most limpdick animation in the game next to energy drain. If they're gonna rework nin and make mug the next big thing, at least make it not look terrible. Video games at the end of the day are power fantasies. Mug makes me feel weak, not strong. Surely someone in the animation team can take a break from making another cash shop mount and make mug not look terrible.

Yoshi p said they paid the most attention to Sam and nin this patch, but it doesn't feel like it. Hell, there is a fucking mod out to make mug not the second worst animation in the game. I ask on behalf of all ninja players that the devs actually do what they say and pay attention to nin instead of making empty statements.

Honestly they could just return Sneak Attack and replace Mug with it for the DMG buff.

If Bunshin didn’t require Ninki I could get over the opener. The problem is Mug being filler made optimizing it easier mid-fight. Can’t hold it for the 2M burst or use that drift to your advantage as before, can’t pop it pre Limit Cut in P2, If it drifts in P3/4 your raid DPS is fucked. Trick honestly was built into the flow of the rotation better AND did the same job better. I’d much rather a double debuff on Trick if SE wanted to mess with it. Higher personal lower raid? Fine. It’s the flow that matters here.

I just did p3s reclears today, and i must admit having to juggle mug and trick at the same time now is kinda awkward. Not being able to use mug on birds, reopener after birds also feels uncomfortable, etc. It might just be the transition period talking, but for now I enjoy p3s even less. Which is saying something kek

The issue here is that both Mug and Trick have prerequisites to activate. Mug you need to have sub-60 Ninki, Trick you need to have Suiton active. Juggling both of these conditions just to enter your burst window is really uncomfortable when, for example, Red Mage can simply pop Embolden and burst away.

This is not to say I think we should do away with Suiton -- I think the act of activating Suiton is a good build-up towards a powerful raid buff. The problem is that we have to do it twice. I just don't understand why this type of change was made. I'd really love to sit down and have a proper conversation with the job designers about why they thought this was a good idea, and what they're hoping to achieve.

At the moment, all they're earning from me is disappointment.

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Originally Posted by Manofpassion

Yeah lmao. Have you seen mug's animation? It's the most limpdick animation in the game next to energy drain. If they're gonna rework nin and make mug the next big thing, at least make it not look terrible. Video games at the end of the day are power fantasies. Mug makes me feel weak, not strong. Surely someone in the animation team can take a break from making another cash shop mount and make mug not look terrible.

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Trick Attack was clearly designed to let people know the buff Window has begun. Suiton does the same thing as this visual warning that the Trick Attack Window is coming soon. It's such an odd choice to switch the Raid Buff to Mug with hardly any sound effect or animation to notice. I think being mugged by 8 people makes sense thematically as a damage increase but it really does look terrible as it currently stands.

I feel like Trick Attack makes much more sense than Mug as a raid buff. Trick Attack gives the impression of a 'dirty trick', some sort of cheap attack that briefly lower the enemy's guard, like throwing sand in their eyes.

Mug just feels like we're robbing them of something. Which, to be fair, is what the ability has historically done. I'm just now sure how to translate that into combat in a way that makes sense. It really doesn't feel like a ninjalike ability at all.

Apologies for the double post, but I do have to wonder why these changes were made in 6.1. I know historically that job changes have always been made in odd patches, but making such a change to the way a job works right before an Ultimate feels rather cruel. I understand the same thing happened in 5.1 before TEA was released, but according to stories I've heard from those who were there, 5.0 Ninja was released in an abysmal state and desperately needed changes.



While I'm sure making Mudras GCDs instead of oGCDs was controversial, it's obvious that such a change is immensely beneficial to those who suffer from high ping. I can't think of any inherent benefit to the changes made here, though... nor would I have considered 6.08 Ninja to be in a poor state at all. If anything, it was too strong. Now, in 6.1, it's definitely too strong.

Making such drastic job changes in even patches would at least mean you could easily swap to another role, given that crafted gear is fairly easy to acquire. The limit is only the size of your gil coffers, as opposed to a weekly loot lockout.


I do think this highlights a gearing issue for melee DPS, however. Every other role can swap to a different class within the same archetype -- WAR can swap to GNB, RDM can swap to SMN, WHM can swap to SGE, MCH can swap to BRD. They might not have their BiS, but at the very least they can enter the new ultimate and play. If you locked into Scouting, Ninja is all you have. To make such drastic changes right before a piece of content being released...? I just don't get it.


I don't get the changes, and I don't get why they were made now. I worry I'm not going to enjoy the new Ultimate, but I've already promised my static I'd play melee DPS for them...

Honestly, the new TA/Mug maybe changes little about the Ninja themselves... it's still an odd minute buff that can even go as far as being a buff.. I'm not really sure since I don't main NIN.

But what I'm sure of is that impacts the rest of us, because it was fun to keep track of a Ninja's TA windows to seize the moment and unload some big hits.

While I agree that the new mug change doesn't effect our rotation too much on paper, the changes make ninja feel considerably more jank even after I've practiced a couple of days now. I'll reiterate what I said in another thread.

Needing Suiton + ninki below 60 to activate both trick and mug without any dps loss feels quite awkward. While this can be claimed to be complexity, and I guess it technically is, it feels incredibly jank. I don't mind putting in work to get a raid buff, like in astro's divination in shb, but that system in my opinion flowed much better. The complexity, which I'm sure is accidental because it's the ninja devs, is appreciated, but it needs to flow a lot more better to make it worth the hassle. Shb divination was a 6% buff, so the work felt like it was worth it since it was one of the strongest buffs in the game. Ninja puts in work just to get shitty brotherhood.

TLDR: The extra work needed to juggle mug and new trick feels jank, and with mug being just a generic raid buff, it doesn't feel like all the work is worth it.

Okay, I was holding my opinion until I had actually tried the new ability effects in content.

And this is totally subjective, but I want the devs to hear it: I hate these changes. Having a raid-wide damage buff after a complex mudra combo felt really good. Pressing an ogcd every 2 minutes is comparatively joyless. Yes, I still get to do the trick attack combo, but since it is now just a personal damage buff a little bit of the fun has been removed. I don't know what this change was meant to improve, but I don't like how it alters the feel of the job.

Maybe I'm alone in this, but... Ninja players enjoy doing their biggest attacks/effects after performing mudras, right? That's the appeal of the class, that you don't just push one button and get a spell?

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Originally Posted by AoifeAogane

Okay, I was holding my opinion until I had actually tried the new ability effects in content.

And this is totally subjective, but I want the devs to hear it: I hate these changes. Having a raid-wide damage buff after a complex mudra combo felt really good. Pressing an ogcd every 2 minutes is comparatively joyless. Yes, I still get to do the trick attack combo, but since it is now just a personal damage buff a little bit of the fun has been removed. I don't know what this change was meant to improve, but I don't like how it alters the feel of the job.

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Even just everything else I've said aside about how boring mechanically Mug is compared to Brotherhood and Arcane Circle as well as DRG's buffs.
On a visual level it's just barely noticeable.
For TA you've got Suiton which is a big water splash then a flashy spinning double stab, Mug feels like one of those old ARR skills like Fracture for Marauder.
It looks and feels so weak and underwhelming it has no real impact at all.

It's just sad how NIN went to having the dullest utility buff in like every aspect.

It went from, "Ten-Chi-Jin-SPLASH-STAB!!!!!!!" :D to "Oh... mug is up again." *click*

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Originally Posted by AoifeAogane

It went from, "Ten-Chi-Jin-SPLASH-STAB!!!!!!!" :D to "Oh... mug is up again." *click*

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Welcome to every other melee in the game.

Maybe it's because my two main jobs are Ninja and Scholar so this update seems surgically devised to irk me. I don't know.

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Originally Posted by AoifeAogane

Maybe it's because my two main jobs are Ninja and Scholar so this update seems surgically devised to irk me. I don't know.

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I play Bard and Sam the most and was in the process of getting ninja up to their level
Life is suffering

There there. Have some cocoa and a blanket.

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Originally Posted by AoifeAogane

Maybe it's because my two main jobs are Ninja and Scholar so this update seems surgically devised to irk me. I don't know.

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Imagine being an Arcanist main pre 6.0 and seeing the Summoner rework for what it was when it was revealed and getting gaslit til launch, which revealed they fixed ranged pets via the fairy tune up, then looking at Bard (my go to secondary DPS), and seeing Repertoire DoTs completely gutted.

Ninja was supposed to be the one they didn’t touch past 6.0 Raijus. And I did pick it to be a TA burst bot and have easier uptime with RPR/BLM/RDM.

As is, finishing clears and unsubbing till 6.2 breaks something else is the plan.

As a GNB the change to trick attack is pretty sad. It used to line up with my highest damage no mercy window, and now my three minute window doesn't have the potential to be buffed by ninjas. Bloodfest feels just a little bit worse, I'll miss trick attack.

Might be a bit off-topic, but with the new ishgard housing being a massive failure by all accounts, I feel confident in asserting that the ninja devs did not playtest ninja or any other jobs. While I'm aware that housing is likely ran by a different department, the fact they didn't playtest a simple random number generator is shocking. Both the recent job changes and housing changes seems be a damning indication that the QA department for ffxiv are either very incompetent, or had their budget and resources decreased. Since when was square enix owned by EA?