Endwalker was "meh" (for reasons other than technical issues)

Yeah, Garlemald is clearly primarily a blend of Roman and Russian influence...but is ultimately a fictional creation.

As someone’s whose played the story since ARR and has been an active lore enthusiast, i’d give the story a solidddd…4/10? Purely because the beginning portions of the game are very well done meaning Garlemald and both Thavnair visits. The zones and music are all amazing but the story in which most of the games budget has went into just wasn’t worth all this wait and delay. Once you get to the moon it starts to become a mess, it becomes an even bigger mess once you get to the ending portions of elpis, and everything after that is just….disappointing to say the least. So much wasted potential on so many things, no consequences or stakes for the main cast, the threat of the final days only really being shown properly in thavnair, despite the trailer depicting the entire map as being on fire only 2 zones end up actually getting the final days, not to mention the convenience of all the towers just up and disappearing. No lunar primals whatsoever etc etc. All i can say is this expansion is the best example of wasted potential for so many plot points from the body snatch scene to zodiark etc etc.

I loved the story. Was better than I expected after following Shadowbringers which was really good. 10/10

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Originally Posted by Theodric

Yeah, Garlemald is clearly primarily a blend of Roman and Russian influence...but is ultimately a fictional creation.

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Yeah I always thought it was Rome/Russia/Germany and maybe sprinklings of the U.S. But now that I'm actually analyzing that assumption the only kinda Germanthings about them is the "iron cross" flag and some tinges of Aryan exceptionalism. The Russian and Roman influences are much more evident. Definitely my favorite fictional empire in the series, very well-realized.

I think the peak/climax experience for me is elpis. Literally cried watching the cutscene after lv 87 dungeon. After that, I started losing enjoyment from the story. It is still a wild ride till the end, don't get me wrong. But rather than enjoying the writing, I was more focused on the plot idea itself (idk if this even make sense, sorry).

I was rushing through the second part of labyrinthos and last zone because I just want to see ending. This has never happened to me before since I start playing. Usually I will take time to savor the story. Just this one time it's not. Not sure if it's actually a good thing or not :(

The only redeeming part of last zone is, for me: 1) seeing emet and hythlodaeus again, 2) when we let meteion see our feelings, and 3) the stair part I guess? In that order. Couldn't care less about Zenos, but the scene after the fight is beautiful.

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Originally Posted by SeverianLyonesse

Yeah I always thought it was Rome/Russia/Germany and maybe sprinklings of the U.S. But now that I'm actually analyzing that assumption the only kinda Germanthings about them is the "iron cross" flag and some tinges of Aryan exceptionalism. The Russian and Roman influences are much more evident. Definitely my favorite fictional empire in the series, very well-realized.

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If I had to say they were taking something from Germany, the MSQ and thinking involved seemed to be in the direction of avoiding a Versailles Treaty scenario with Garlemald, as their stance towards their neighbours - even those nominally bearing gifts - was one forged through a very bitter history of conflict, and so to many death would be preferable than humiliation for cynical liberator nations they scarcely saw as any better than themselves. That's the cycle that the Scions resolved to break. I really enjoyed the Garlemald section and how it expanded on why the Garleans revered Varis and Solus as they did. I'll post my overall thoughts on the MSQ later but I'm wondering if the reason Yoshi said we'd feel weird about a Garlean reconstruction is because their true homeland is in Locus Amoenus.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

I think the Final Days were also underused. It affected two zones and…that was it. I really would have liked to have seen it in all the zones. Kind of like the Everlasting Light, and maybe it gets extinguished after we succeed in Ultima Thule. But, nope. It was kind of one-two-done thing. Disappointing. The writers even threw in two scenes of people being affected in Ala Mhigo and Ishgard by the despair that turns them into blasphemies….and then nothing became of that. It wasn’t mentioned or revisited. It felt almost as if something was planned for the other regions/city-states, and then cut.

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Do the role quests, they follow up on this happening in both of those places as well as Limsa Lominsa, Gridania, and Doma. I totally disagree with everyone saying the "Final Days" weren't there for long enough though, when we had one of only six dungeons devoted to it (two would have been horrible, especially considering we already did Amaurot) and the part that I thought dragged on the second most (next to Labyrinthos) in Thavnair chasing Matsya around for like an hour. It more than served its purpose of saying "it's going down right now, so make some decisions" in the scheme of the story.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Though, I was also disappointed that Zodiark mostly ended up being a chump after we spent so much time building him up as this Big Bad. Just another disappointment and lost potential in the story.

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I also don't get this one at all. Zodiark is only half complete. All the ascians who really cared about bringing him back and were capable of doing so are already gone. Fandaniel's entire plan is to have Zodiark be destroyed to resume the calamity. None of this leads to Zodiark as the final boss; that ship sailed during Shadowbringers quite obviously.


I mostly agree with the rest that I didn't quote though. Pacing wasn't any worse than any of the other expansions (why does no one remember how awful the miners in Shadowbringers were, at the exact same point in the story as Labyrinthos no less?) but it's definitely not ideal either. Zenos sucks and contributes nothing to the story as usual. I don't hate the Scions' sacrifice scenes for the same reason as everyone else, but it definitely feels like they've gone through all the development they need and those scenes makes it obvious. And yeah, their sense of comedic timing overall is not great, though it did make a Hythlodaeus line particularly funny by accident; I'd prefer if they just kept that stuff to big side stories like Hildebrand/Gilgamesh/etc.

Heavensward sucked though, I will never understand how anyone rates it higher than anything.

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Originally Posted by Tsukino

Snip.

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The role quests, at least the healer one just has a few final days monsters show up but that’s it. No red skies, nothing causing actual destruction. As for Zodiark, it’s the fact of the story decision they chose to make. They chose to make him tied to holding the final days and Meteion back, and instead of him being controlled to undo that, they instead just killed him off, and then 10 minutes later we’re having dress up time with the rabbits. They have given Hydaelyn and Venat the spotlight numerous times, Venat even getting her own story arc in Elpis, yet Elidibus and Zodiark get completely shafted with little more than 10 minute cameos. So much for the Hydaelyn AND Zodiark arc. Seems more like the Hydaelyn and Meteion arc lmao. As for the pacing, i will argue to the death that Endwalker’s pacing is the worst we’ve ever seen. Especially when there’s a literal apocalypse going on and they choose to have us have lunch with the scions at the time. The amount of eating with scions scenes in general is….cringy to say the least. Honestly i didn’t notice much development for most of the scions. Yshtola did hardly anything the entire expansion, Urianger overcame his grief for moenbryda i guess? The twins got some garlean insight and made up with their dad which everyone saw coming. Thancred….don’t really know what he got development wise honestly. Same with Krile and i still don’t understand why tataru is on the expansion poster.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

The role quests, at least the healer one just has a few final days monsters show up but that’s it. No red skies, nothing causing actual destruction. As for Zodiark, it’s the fact of the story decision they chose to make. They chose to make him tied to holding the final days and Meteion back, and instead of him being controlled to undo that, they instead just killed him off, and then 10 minutes later we’re having dress up time with the rabbits. They have given Hydaelyn and Venat the spotlight numerous times, Venat even getting her own story arc in Elpis, yet Elidibus and Zodiark get completely shafted with little more than 10 minute cameos. So much for the Hydaelyn AND Zodiark arc. Seems more like the Hydaelyn and Meteion arc lmao.

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That was a Shadowbringers decision though, not an Endwalker one. There was no chance of Zodiark being the big bad by the time we started here. I didn't think about not getting enough back story with Elidibus though, and that is interesting - maybe the Pandæmonium story will make up for this starting tomorrow.

I would tend to agree with the Scions being way too present despite already being done with character development, but I'm also hopeful that the ending means we won't have to have all nine of them around to comment on every story development every single time from here on out.

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Originally Posted by Tsukino

That was a Shadowbringers decision though, not an Endwalker one. There was no chance of Zodiark being the big bad by the time we started here. I didn't think about not getting enough back story with Elidibus though, and that is interesting - maybe the Pandæmonium story will make up for this starting tomorrow.

I would tend to agree with the Scions being way too present despite already being done with character development, but I'm also hopeful that the ending means we won't have to have all nine of them around to comment on every story development every single time from here on out.

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It wasn’t really a shadowbringers decision though. They decided this expansion to have Fandaniel control Zodiark and just immediately rush us to be killed off. They easily could’ve written a way where instead of having Zodiark killed, someone else takes control of it and undoes the laws he put in place blocking Meteion. It screams incredibly rushed action to get rid of a major character because we don’t know what else to do. Like the fact he’s been built up since 1.0 just to be killed off in the span of 10 minutes while we have to sit through hours of venat and hydaelyn preaching is incredibly unbalanced.And yes Elidibus could be in Pandaemonium but at that point its like why bother. They shafted him in favor of Venat and Emet, gave Emet basically his entire role in the story so he serves little purpose. It's hwy i hate that they just handed the story over to Ishikawa because she just shafted characters that have been built up numerous expansions just so her personal favorites can shine, and it shows heavily in the story.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

It wasn’t really a shadowbringers decision though. They decided this expansion to have Fandaniel control Zodiark and just immediately rush us to be killed off. They easily could’ve written a way where instead of having Zodiark killed, someone else takes control of it and undoes the laws he put in place blocking Meteion. It screams incredibly rushed action to get rid of a major character because we don’t know what else to do. Like the fact he’s been built up since 1.0 just to be killed off in the span of 10 minutes while we have to sit through hours of venat and hydaelyn preaching is incredibly unbalanced.And yes Elidibus could be in Pandaemonium but at that point its like why bother. They shafted him in favor of Venat and Emet, gave Emet basically his entire role in the story so he serves little purpose. It's hwy i hate that they just handed the story over to Ishikawa because she just shafted characters that have been built up numerous expansions just so her personal favorites can shine, and it shows heavily in the story.

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Zodiark's mere existence halts The Final Days. We literally could not have them without him being destroyed. Elidibus btw, is the Heart of Zodiark. Meaning what Elidibus wants is what Zodiark wants. Thus getting more information about Elidibus gives us more info on Zodiark.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

Zodiark's mere existence halts The Final Days. We literally could not have them without him being destroyed. Elidibus btw, is the Heart of Zodiark. Meaning what Elidibus wants is what Zodiark wants. Thus getting more information about Elidibus gives us more info on Zodiark.

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Except it’s a bit too late for that. Zodiark is gone. Like more info is always nice but at this point it just feels like they’re shoving him into side content because they didn’t know what else to do with him lol. I find it hard to believe had Fandaniel or Zenos become the heart they couldn’t control Zodiark to undo what he did but alas we’ll never know, instead we got asspulled Dynamis and Meteion lol.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Except it’s a bit too late for that. Zodiark is gone. Like more info is always nice but at this point it just feels like they’re shoving him into side content because they didn’t know what else to do with him lol. I find it hard to believe had Fandaniel or Zenos become the heart they couldn’t control Zodiark to undo what he did but alas we’ll never know, instead we got asspulled Dynamis and Meteion lol.

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It's never too late. Look at Hythlodaeus, he was basically non-existent in anything other than his Shade until they had us go to Elpis, and now he's a fan favorite. Also, as much as you hate Dynamis and Meteion, at least they do not contradict lore.

i kind of liked heavensward very much and shadowbringers was also rather well written in my opinion.
What i didnt care for was stormbloods rushed story and the sadistic actions of some characters. No matter how well written, if stuff like fordola and yotsuyu come up i am out. its just not the story i enjoy
endwalker feels rushed but then again we only have the basic story yet, we got 5 patches of story to come before we can compare

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

It's never too late. Look at Hythlodaeus, he was basically non-existent in anything other than his Shade until they had us go to Elpis, and now he's a fan favorite. Also, as much as you hate Dynamis and Meteion, at least they do not contradict lore.

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They do contradict lore though. In the past the devs themselves stated lb’s were aether based, it even says it in the EE. Now they’re apparently dynamis? It’s just a way for them to hand wave plot armor and plot devices lol

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Originally Posted by Caitlinzulu

i kind of liked heavensward very much and shadowbringers was also rather well written in my opinion.
What i didnt care for was stormbloods rushed story and the sadistic actions of some characters. No matter how well written, if stuff like fordola and yotsuyu come up i am out. its just not the story i enjoy
endwalker feels rushed but then again we only have the basic story yet, we got 5 patches of story to come before we can compare

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Unfortunately Endwalker's story is indeed over. The devs themselves said they arent doing the typical 3-5 patches of continuing the expansion story. 6.1+ will be an entirely new story, which is why im especially annoyed at all the unanswered questions they left open and didnt address. Like the fact the sundered ascians got little more than a one liner mention is bad enough, but the fact is now theyre either all going to be hsoved into pandaemonium in which case, rushed, or they just wont be mentioned again.

I guess I just don't get what people expected from Zodiark. We knew from Shadowbringers that he wasn't really evil or the 'big bad.' And we learned that Elidibus was his heart, so we know what his personality 'would' have been like anyway.

I don't feel like Fandaniel hijacking Zodiark and sticking around a few more levels would have improved the story any. It just would have stretched things out. I feel like going to the moon itself could have used some more in story buildup, but I don't have a problem with how things played out with Fandaniel taking over Zodiark and then ensuring he was killed. I feel like it worked pretty well as a 'disc 1 boss' right before the final days really start kicking into gear and we start getting answers.

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Originally Posted by Caitlinzulu

endwalker feels rushed but then again we only have the basic story yet, we got 5 patches of story to come before we can compare

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Wasn't the expansion meant to end the whole arc in go? From what I remember, not sure.

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Originally Posted by Bright-Flower

I guess I just don't get what people expected from Zodiark. We knew from Shadowbringers that he wasn't really evil or the 'big bad.' And we learned that Elidibus was his heart, so we know what his personality 'would' have been like anyway.

I don't feel like Fandaniel hijacking Zodiark and sticking around a few more levels would have improved the story any. It just would have stretched things out. I feel like going to the moon itself could have used some more in story buildup, but I don't have a problem with how things played out with Fandaniel taking over Zodiark and then ensuring he was killed. I feel like it worked pretty well as a 'disc 1 boss' right before the final days really start kicking into gear and we start getting answers.

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I expected him to at least get the same amount of screentime that Hydaelyn and Venat got, but again, both him and elidibus got a brief cameo and thats it. Considering how much they keep saying both beings arent good or bad but then they have one be used in a bad way and the other painted as a benevolent goddess who gets a huge amount of time to share her story and talk and has an entire arc dedicated to her is pretty imbalanced to say the least.Like when the arc is advertised as the nend of the Hydaelyn and Zodiark arc, and the official artwork depicts both of them together, i dont think its that farfetched to expect them both to get more than a 10 minute appearance.

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Originally Posted by Shin96

Wasn't the expansion meant to end the whole arc in go? From what I remember, not sure.

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That's right, we won't have the usual sort of "sequel" stories in 6.1 through 6.3 like the previous expansions' stories had. We do have Pandæmonium coming starting tomorrow though, and they appear to have made a model for ancient Elidibus just for it. So we won't have the same sort of follow-up in the MSQ, but that doesn't mean they can't flesh out other characters like him.

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Originally Posted by Tsukino

Do the role quests, they follow up on this happening in both of those places as well as Limsa Lominsa, Gridania, and Doma. I totally disagree with everyone saying the "Final Days" weren't there for long enough though, when we had one of only six dungeons devoted to it (two would have been horrible, especially considering we already did Amaurot) and the part that I thought dragged on the second most (next to Labyrinthos) in Thavnair chasing Matsya around for like an hour. It more than served its purpose of saying "it's going down right now, so make some decisions" in the scheme of the story.

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Somehow I doubt the role quests will really fulfill what I was talking about here: the Final Days were built up through 5.4 and 5.5, through all the trailers, the PLLs—there was a lot of build up for something that, honestly, occurred fairly late in the story (level 84/85), and only affected two zones DESPITE the writers deliberately showing its effects in both Ishgard and Ala Mhigo. But the latter two locations were just completely dropped in terms of MSQ—and, as I said, it gave me the impression that more had been planned for the Final Days than what actually made the final cut.

If you want to bring up dungeons, though—compare to Shadowbringers: we had 5 dungeons that existed to purge the Everlasting Light from Norvrandt. 5 that existed to deal with sin eaters and Lightwardens. We get one in Endwalker to deal with the end of our world. As I said, feels like more was planned and then dropped for the sake of completing the story by the end of 6.0. And that just added to why I said it felt rushed and underused.

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I also don't get this one at all. Zodiark is only half complete. All the ascians who really cared about bringing him back and were capable of doing so are already gone. Fandaniel's entire plan is to have Zodiark be destroyed to resume the calamity. None of this leads to Zodiark as the final boss; that ship sailed during Shadowbringers quite obviously.

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I never said I expected him to be the final boss. That doesn’t mean I wanted him to be forgettable though—because, quite frankly, he is. We’ve spent years hearing about the guy, and incomplete or no, we whack at him for a few minutes and then he poofs. And we basically just move on and barely discuss him from that point.

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Heavensward sucked though, I will never understand how anyone rates it higher than anything.

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I mean, you’re entitled to your opinion—though I’d definitely say you’re in a minority here with it. But I fail to see what this little quip has to do with the rest of my post.

I remember seeing a lot of similar complaints back during the previous expansions too.

"Oh, they BARELY used Amaurot for anything, and we didn't get ANY explanation of what Elidibus was up to!"
"Bah, what was that last zone? Azys Lla was barely used, I can't believe how pointless it was."
"What, Yotsuyu survived and we're not going to learn anything else about her? What a sham of a story!"

And no, 6.1 isn't going to be an entirely new story with no connection to the old one. What, do you think we're going to go to Garlemald, Elpis, the moon, and Ultima Thule again and NOT have it relate to the stuff that's happened before? Or do you think 6.1 will bring with it 6 new zones set in the New World or we'll be hopping over to the Second or something?

You're confusing aetherial darkness with despair.

There are no redundancies here. Zodiark isn't some evil bringer of death and despair, anymore than hydaelyn brings happiness.

He's just aspected to that element, which is in no way, evil. You were TOLD this in Shb, there is really no excuse for not knowing this.


Meteion is all about emotion. In this case, despair. Nothing to do with darkness or aether. Literally nothing.

You fight Zenos ONCE in EW. One solo duty. No idea why you're whining about a second. That never happened.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Somehow I doubt the role quests will really fulfill what I was talking about here: the Final Days were built up through 5.4 and 5.5, through all the trailers, the PLLs—there was a lot of build up for something that, honestly, occurred fairly late in the story (level 84/85), and only affected two zones DESPITE the writers deliberately showing its effects in both Ishgard and Ala Mhigo. But the latter two locations were just completely dropped—and, as I said, it gave me the impression that more had been planned for the Final Days that what actually made the final cut.

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Oh, no, they won't change your mind, I don't think they're very good really. I was just pointing out that the ones in Ala Mhigo and Ishgard aren't dropped, they're in the role quests. I didn't mean to suggest that those role quests are good.

As for Zodiark, that's fair, I just don't know what they could have done with him so weakened and devoid of ascian support as he was at this point. Like I said above, hopefully more information on Elidibus might give more insight into Zodiark than the story allowed for.

The thing about Heavensward was just my not-funny way of finalizing all the things I listed about your full opinion, it doesn't mean anything except I thought Heavensward was dumb.

Zodiark's point of view we already got in SHB though. What more was there to explore? Elidibus was his literal heart and he was explored in 5.2 and 5.3, and with him gone that left Zodiark without an actual character of his own. 5.0 spent a lot of time in the final zone fleshing out the ascians and their past and their reasons for summoning Zodiark. Hydaelyn needed more time because she was brought into question with SHB and was our benefactor/patron deity throughout the story, especially early on. Zodiark didn't have that personal connection to the protagonists. I don't feel like there was really much more to learn about Zodiark, and with his heart gone, not much to get out of him character wise either. It would have just been a rehash of what we learned in SHB.

For end days, the role quests really do not do what you're looking for. They deal with blasphemes that are loose in their respective regions, and delve into some issues those places are having and explore characters a little. But while the blasphemes are bad, it never hits end days status and if you're looking for worldwide apocalypse, yeah they're going to disapoint.

Honestly though, I'm glad that EW was less formulaic. I wouldn't want every dungeon to be a tower, I'm glad only two of them were towers. I wouldn't want every dungeon to be the same thing. Red skies and fires everywhere would get old fairly quickly. Not every dungeon was dealing with 'end days' in the sense that the 85 dungeon was but they were all important to the overall journey and goal.

I liked SHB but I wouldn't want every zone in EW to be a similar pattern of 'go to area, help people fight monsters and not give into despair, move on to next area.'

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Originally Posted by Anatha

Meteion is all about emotion. In this case, despair. Nothing to do with darkness or aether. Literally nothing.

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The only relation Meteion has with Dark is that Dynamis and active Aether, which is what Dark aether is strongest at.

This is why the Ancients chose Darkness as the element to stop the Final Days -- they assumed the issue was simply that aether had become too stagnant in the areas hardest hit by the Final Days and decided to use the most active element to counteract that problem. If the Final Days was caused by aether becoming too frantic in an area, Zodiark would have been a being of Light.

They go over it a lot in Shadowbringers (Urianger in the fairy house.) Heck, they talk about Light being the aether of stillness back in Heavensward (Ardbert mentions it).

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Originally Posted by Bright-Flower

Zodiark's point of view we already got in SHB though. What more was there to explore? Elidibus was his literal heart and he was explored in 5.2 and 5.3,

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Yes, the heart of the main deity primal that’s been around for 8+ years had 2 patches(and he wasn’t even around much to talk in 5.2) to shine. Vs the entire expansion Emet got, and the multiple expansion visits to Hydaelyn and Venat’s entire Elpis arc. My point is we got to have our own time with both Hydaelyn and Venat at separate times, yet we didn’t get that with Zodiark whatsoever. I think there’s a lot more we could learn about both tbh. Who was it that Elidibus swore a promise to? Who or how did they originally develop Zodiark and get the idea for him. Why were there already statues of him created before he had even been conceived. There’s lot of questions they could’ve gone into and answered. Not to mention the 5-6 remaining sundered ascians still around we could’ve gotten insight on that will probably just be thrown into pandaemonium and killed off.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Yes, the heart of the main deity primal that’s been around for 8+ years had 2 patches(and he wasn’t even around much to talk in 5.2) to shine. Vs the entire expansion Emet got, and the multiple expansion visits to Hydaelyn and Venat’s entire Elpis arc. My point is we got to have our own time with both Hydaelyn and Venat at separate times, yet we didn’t get that with Zodiark whatsoever. I think there’s a lot more we could learn about both tbh. Who was it that Elidibus swore a promise to? Who or how did they originally develop Zodiark and get the idea for him. Why were there already statues of him created before he had even been conceived. There’s lot of questions they could’ve gone into and answered. Not to mention the 5-6 remaining sundered ascians still around we could’ve gotten insight on that will probably just be thrown into pandaemonium and killed off.

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Not every question need to be answered.
Venat still hasn't got a chance to hear our reply to her question isn't it?

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Originally Posted by Divinemights

Not every question need to be answered.
Venat still hasn't got a chance to hear our reply to her question isn't it?

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That’s an excuse for sloppy and lazy writing. Sure let’s just not address the plot points we’ve brought up. At that point why even write a story if you’re going to ignore your own points.

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Originally Posted by Tsukino

Oh, no, they won't change your mind, I don't think they're very good really. I was just pointing out that the ones in Ala Mhigo and Ishgard aren't dropped, they're in the role quests. I didn't mean to suggest that those role quests are good.

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I elaborated a bit more to mention how they were kind of dropped out of the MSQ. Idk. I guess it was meant to be a role quest teaser, but it felt a bit hollow. Tbh, I forgot about the role quests since they were also brought up so late. Kind of also seemed like an afterthought, but maybe because they’re less integrated in the backstory compared to the ones in ShB with the Cardinal Virtues.

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As for Zodiark, that's fair, I just don't know what they could have done with him so weakened and devoid of ascian support as he was at this point. Like I said above, hopefully more information on Elidibus might give more insight into Zodiark than the story allowed for.

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I do hope we get more, since I feel like we were more so fighting Fandaniel during the trial versus Zodiark himself. And I just didn’t like how forgettable he ended up feeling, being that he was built up for so long as a main antagonist to our character and their cause. I’d like him to have more to him, so maybe I’ll get that from Pandaemonium.

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The thing about Heavensward was just my not-funny way of finalizing all the things I listed about your full opinion, it doesn't mean anything except I thought Heavensward was dumb.

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Ah. I suppose we’ll just have to agree to disagree on that, since I really enjoyed Heavensward and the Dragonsong War. It may also be because of when I started playing and nostalgia blah blah, but I’ve always enjoyed the story. To be honest, the only main story I can give a below average rating to is ARR—if only because it is so full of filler, even after the condensing. Some filler is fine and necessary to an extent, but ARR tests my patience a lot lol.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

That’s an excuse for sloppy and lazy writing. Sure let’s just not address the plot points we’ve brought up. At that point why even write a story if you’re going to ignore your own points.

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The focus of writing was not about Zodiark himself to be honest.
The is just a manifest combines by minds that wants to restore everything back to the old.
There is nothing special and while you may be interest, I personally thinks any time wasted on him is not really necessary.
From story purpose, it is better narration if you put focus on Hydaelyn and Venat and we did get our answer of why Hydaelyn need to shatter original into 14 different worls.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Yes, the heart of the main deity primal that’s been around for 8+ years had 2 patches(and he wasn’t even around much to talk in 5.2) to shine. Vs the entire expansion Emet got, and the multiple expansion visits to Hydaelyn and Venat’s entire Elpis arc. My point is we got to have our own time with both Hydaelyn and Venat at separate times, yet we didn’t get that with Zodiark whatsoever. I think there’s a lot more we could learn about both tbh. Who was it that Elidibus swore a promise to? Who or how did they originally develop Zodiark and get the idea for him. Why were there already statues of him created before he had even been conceived. There’s lot of questions they could’ve gone into and answered. Not to mention the 5-6 remaining sundered ascians still around we could’ve gotten insight on that will probably just be thrown into pandaemonium and killed off.

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The Elidibus stuff will probably be in the Pandaemonium raid. The npc we see in the stinger cutscene for it has his voice, and Elidibus remembered seeing us in Elpis despite not showing up for the msq. On top of that, Elidibus was not introduced in 5.2. We've seen glimpses from him all throughout the game, he first showed in what, 2.1 I think? He didn't just suddenly show up in SHB's patches. And there is still room to explore him further via the Pandaemonium quests in which it's likely he'll be one of the main NPCs involved.

I doubt that the other ascians will be killed off in the pandaemonium raid. It takes place in Elpis in the past, them even getting there wouldn't make sense let alone all being killed off.

How they developed Zodiark feels like a question we don't really need more answers on. They used creation magic and half the population's souls to make him, going into some details of how they did that off with magical technobable wouldn't really add anything. We know why they did it, we know the lengths they went to do it. I don't feel like there was much more to get out of his summoning.

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Originally Posted by Bright-Flower

The Elidibus stuff will probably be in the Pandaemonium raid. The npc we see in the stinger cutscene for it has his voice, and Elidibus remembered seeing us in Elpis despite not showing up for the msq. On top of that, Elidibus was not introduced in 5.2. We've seen glimpses from him all throughout the game, he first showed in what, 2.1 I think? He didn't just suddenly show up in SHB's patches. And there is still room to explore him further via the Pandaemonium quests in which it's likely he'll be one of the main NPCs involved.

I doubt that the other ascians will be killed off in the pandaemonium raid. It takes place in Elpis in the past, them even getting there wouldn't make sense let alone all being killed off.

How they developed Zodiark feels like a question we don't really need more answers on. They used creation magic and half the population's souls to make him, going into some details of how they did that off with magical technobable wouldn't really add anything. We know why they did it, we know the lengths they went to do it. I don't feel like there was much more to get out of his summoning.

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I mean we know the raids will feature lahabrea somehow, so there’s clearly something more going on than just the past of Elpis. Especially considering how similar Lahabrea’s glyph is to the murals of both hydaelyn and zodiark. How they developed him would be kind of important considering that’s literally what this entire arc has revolved around? If we have to be fed info on the scions histories etc i don’t think being fed info on the deities that this entire arc has revolved around is any more far fetched. Yes we’ve seen glimpses of Elidibus but he wasn’t given actual main screentime until really 5.3. Beyond that it was mainly background scenes. As for the ascians being in pandaemonium, it depends on the story they go with, but things have never made sense with 14’s story recently.

I think the world building of the game is good. However, probably due to the que times issues and only being able to play comfortably at weird hours; but I'm in such a hurry at times (now more so than any other time). I don't skip at all and I really wanted to at times.

Actually my progress in the story is wayy behind where it usually is at an expansion, so yes, some parts are nice but after the 5th time (in a span of 2mins) its like "I was just over there" I don't have flying bruh lol.

If they space the 'accompany this character mech' out further, I would not mind it. I think it's a nice touch but since it's the new "hey players look at the evolution of story telling in the game" they overstressed its implementation a bit.

I will also say some climax moments did fall flat for me. The body swap, which was a really nice way to shift story gameplay and integrate writing plots; had me filled with anticipation. But....as I'm thinking omg this is crazy ...zeno's has finally made his move (especially as a reaper) to push the wol to the edge, only for nothing.

Overall I am enjoying the lore exhibitions because this story is 10+ plus years and I expected the density. They had alot of questions and plot points to fill out.

But man, is it me or did the 1st dungeon take forever to unlock. I felt like the lack of prolonged battle content with new abilities etc. was making the story progression drag lol. Especially when there was very little action or intensity. Still I like the story so far.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

They do contradict lore though. In the past the devs themselves stated lb’s were aether based, it even says it in the EE. Now they’re apparently dynamis? It’s just a way for them to hand wave plot armor and plot devices lol

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TBF, I think it may mean they're able to explain LBs using either/or. The sources I posted on that were merely to contest the notion that a LB must be fuelled by dynamis and dispel the notion that there was no existing lore on them.

On Zodiark, I still would not be surprised if we get a better realised fight of him in Pandaemonium. He is something that can be realised from a concept, after all, and Elpis is from a time rich in aether.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

I mean we know the raids will feature lahabrea somehow, so there’s clearly something more going on than just the past of Elpis. Especially considering how similar Lahabrea’s glyph is to the murals of both hydaelyn and zodiark. How they developed him would be kind of important considering that’s literally what this entire arc has revolved around? If we have to be fed info on the scions histories etc i don’t think being fed info on the deities that this entire arc has revolved around is any more far fetched. Yes we’ve seen glimpses of Elidibus but he wasn’t given actual main screentime until really 5.3. Beyond that it was mainly background scenes. As for the ascians being in pandaemonium, it depends on the story they go with, but things have never made sense with 14’s story recently.

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We know it will feature Lahabreah in 'some' way but given that it's in Elpis, it could simply be past lahabrea being involved. We'll find out more tomorrow. It may well not have anything to do with the surviving ascians or modern day lahabreah at all, but it will almost certainly include Elidibus as the npc is probably him given the voice and the hair resembling the WOL hair.

As for Zodiark, we know who summoned him, why they were driven to summon him, what they gave up to summon him, the motivations of his followers, and that of his heart who without Zodiark has no inherent will. I feel like all the important answers are filled in at this point. Seeing more of Zodiark would just be for the sake of having more Zodiark rather than needing to learn anything new about him IMO.

Edit: On the LB thing it may also be a minor retcon, the EE books are written in universe and can have incorrect information as well. OOC of course the writers likely hadn't envisioned dyanmis as a concept yet, in universe it could be that the limit break lore was built on faulty assumptions because knowledge of dyanamis was rare and vague in general leading to assumptions about aether.

They may not have envisioned it at the time and it may amount to a retcon, but given that aether is something observable and measurable in the setting, no less by the Sharlayans who are the sort who like to study things rigorously, I think the easier route would be to say either could serve as LB fuel. We shall see.

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Originally Posted by Sclair0

Absolutely agree on Ultima Thule and Omega. It was obvious from the outset. The same is true of the Moon and Y'shtola revealing the rabbits benefactor is the forum. Obviously the devs know we can figure it out so if there needs to be a moment of 'revelation' at least let us bring it up since we've been aching to point it out since getting to those zones.

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There were multiple instances where i really felt insulted for being made this dumb...

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Originally Posted by Lauront

They may not have envisioned it at the time and it may amount to a retcon, but given that aether is something observable and measurable in the setting, no less by the Sharlayans who are the sort who like to study things rigorously, I think the easier route would be to say either could serve as LB fuel. We shall see.

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This is the point i was making yeah. They make it seem like it’s purely Dynamis but everything we know contradicts that so i guess we’ll see what the devs officially say if they even address it.

Average expansion (be it story or job changes) with average vilain. Her motivation was interesting (or to be more precise her phrase "the true bliss is not to die, but never to be born") but she lacks charisma of Zenos and Emet-Selch. Then again, that's what you get for a surprise vilain development for only 3 levels.
Everything up until elpis could be cut and we would lose nothing.
But the brofight against Vegeta at the end saved it to be put below SB

Having finished it last night, I absolutely loved the expansion.

Being end of days, of course it's going to be gloom and doom, with lots of death. How else could it be anything but?

I do agree that Garlemald was both disappointing as a zone, and as a story arc, and I felt in some parts the back to back clips were too much.