Can SQ-EN draw a line in the sand w/ 3rd Parties?

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Originally Posted by Eien713

I see. I personally think that using a program (especially for progression) takes away so much from the experience, and while to each their own, I really hope this doesn't become the norm in FF14 raiding.

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Don't use them myself, and I don't know anyone who does, but it literally doesn't matter at all. If people want to make it easier for themselves then they can, it does not affect you or anyone else whatsoever.

Other people clearing with addons does not take away from your achievement whatsoever, and I'd hazard that anyone who is complaining about people who clear with addons, are the people who aren't actually good enough to clear the content themselves at all and are salty that other people can.

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Originally Posted by LariaKirin

I will add to this:

• Your raid leader can make mistakes.
• Your raid leader cannot give your entire party individual callouts per your role in the mechanic.
• Your raid leader cannot give you callouts faster than the mechanic's in-game visual cues or with zero delay.

Stop rationalizing it and own it. You're using it to make the game easier.

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Take it you've never seen Rin shot call or seen any of the recent Ultimate clears that Limit Max has done. Those guys straight up do give individual callouts to every member, for 15 minutes straight with no mistakes. Or what about the many parties who have a 9th man, that specifically does nothing but do the above things?

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Originally Posted by Enjuden

That is the most blatant lie I have ever read on this forum, and I've seen a lot. Are you seriously going to tell me that world first groups will not hire someone to code that specific timeline? Really? I guarantee you this will happen on the new Ultimate for world first prog.

Cactbot does a lot, and I do mean a lot of things that are good. But it's also a blatant third party cheat because the developers made the game so dysfunctional for people with medium to high latency. Zero animation lock for perfect triple weave (which you can never ever do normally), being able to tell exactly where melee range is on the screen always via a hud display, the ability to know exactly what to do years ahead of when the mechanic comes out. It's DBD if the developers of it were allowed to completely break the flow of the game itself. If you want an extreme example, you could double weave during Hypercharge with that program.

Don't be an apologist.

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You're talking about XIVAlexander, which is straight up a cheat tool, telling the server you have negative ping. If anyone does do what you stated above and double weave in hypercharge, then the server would pick up on it and they would get banned.

Cactbot is never used for world first, reason being you don't need to, because the fight will be cleared much quicker than someone can code a timeline.

Do you know you have to fully know how the mechanic works before being able to write a cactbot callout for it, and if you fully know how it works, why do you need the call out? Not just that, but every world first uses scuffed strats, and they straight up don't even know how some mechanics work until days after.

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Originally Posted by Saraide

I think you are mixing in XIVAlexander (and maybe a few other plugins) there with cactbot. Cactbot is just the timers and the callouts. A world first party would have to create all the callout triggers themselves, that's literally them learning the fight. There is no homework they can copy from.

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Probably. Looking back on history it's XIVAlexander and its associated plugins. I've come from WoW and did DBD and all of that, so it was a relief to not deal with it during raid for the most part.

Also not exactly true either. The main argument against it is that you're removing human error once you allow scripts to call out the fights for you. That doesn't mean a player cannot fail the mechanic. But it's how far ahead the mechanic is called out that is the argument here. A rather big example is knowing exactly where Ifrit would land for UwU for his phase. Would it be a mechanic if you knew exactly where he would be before he even landed?

Edit: Also well aware of these things, as well as the speed some are able to code on such, Quah. Why do you need the callout? Dunno, tell me where Ultima Weapon, Garuda, and Ifrit will land before they are even on the screen in UWU and tell me it isn't a significant advantage.

Is it needed? No. Is it an advantage some will have over others, and will this push groups faster? Probably.

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Originally Posted by Enjuden

Probably. Looking back on history it's XIVAlexander and its associated plugins. I've come from WoW and did DBD and all of that, so it was a relief to not deal with it during raid for the most part.

Also not exactly true either. The main argument against it is that you're removing human error once you allow scripts to call out the fights for you. That doesn't mean a player cannot fail the mechanic. But it's how far ahead the mechanic is called out that is the argument here. A rather big example is knowing exactly where Ifrit would land for UwU for his phase. Would it be a mechanic if you knew exactly where he would be before he even landed?

Edit: Also well aware of these things, as well as the speed some are able to code on such, Quah. Why do you need the callout? Dunno, tell me where Ultima Weapon, Garuda, and Ifrit will land before they are even on the screen in UWU and tell me it isn't a significant advantage.

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They would have to find all about how a mechanic works out first which is a major time loss as that could be time spent on progging the next mechanic. World first strats are usually extremely scuffed so whatever works first they stick with. We also know that cactbot is not and never will be required for clearing anything so bothering with it in a world first race is just not worth it. By the time you have the knowledge to create a timeline you dont need it anymore.

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Originally Posted by TheRealQuah

Take it you've never seen Rin shot call or seen any of the recent Ultimate clears that Limit Max has done. Those guys straight up do give individual callouts to every member, for 15 minutes straight with no mistakes. Or what about the many parties who have a 9th man, that specifically does nothing but do the above things?

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I must have missed the part where Rin shadow-cloned himself 7 times and individually simultaneously explained everyone's mechanics with a ~1ms delay from the point his client received the packet.

Cactbot will never be comparable to traditional shot-calling, no matter how far people stretch their logic. It's a piece of third party software which fundamentally automates an important element of a fights execution. Even if you had a perfect shotcaller, that person is still a human element of the team who is having to execute on a skill they've practiced.

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Originally Posted by TheRealQuah

I'd hazard that anyone who is complaining about people who clear with addons, are the people who aren't actually good enough to clear the content themselves at all and are salty that other people can.

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There are plenty of folks in the high-end community that look down on Cactbot. It's just not a hill many of them are willing to openly die on, because as many have said it doesn't matter that much and it's usage has become increasingly widespread.

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Originally Posted by EnigmaticDodo

Jesus. I forgot XIVAlexander existed. That's yet another thing that needs to be axed. From my understanding, people tend to use that if they have very bad lag issues, but then you get folks who use it that don't have that issue to get an advantage. This thread isn't just about Cactpot (even though that's what I was primarily mentioning in my OP), but anything that is crossing the line. This definitely fits that description.

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XIVAlexander does far more good than it does harm. At most XIVAlexander can disrupt the top ranks on fflogs if used by someone very competent and even then you are very much held back by the resource generation and the cooldowns your job has. Wow what a nightmare.
Meanwhile it allows people to play with friends from other regions without having to restrict themselves to the lag friendly jobs.

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Originally Posted by EnigmaticDodo

Jesus. I forgot XIVAlexander existed. That's yet another thing that needs to be axed. From my understanding, people tend to use that if they have very bad lag issues, but then you get folks who use it that don't have that issue to get an advantage. This thread isn't just about Cactpot (even though that's what I was primarily mentioning in my OP), but anything that is crossing the line. This definitely fits that description.

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Is it an actual advantage when you could just move to Sacramento and get the exact same advantage without the program? :thinking:

XIVAlexander shouldn't even need to exist as a 3rd party program tbh. The program's functionality, by nature of it existing showing that its possible and thus instantly disqualifying any attempt from the devs saying its not doable, should be baseline in the actual game.

That is how WoW work, and it doesn't make the game any much easier. The difficulty is based on the use of it tho, it is less of a choregraphy, more on instant reflex !

The game is full of items that required your attention that you have to choose sometime where to look (and it is even more difficult, for us with attention disorder >.>, i've used to take medicine for headache while doing hardcore content u_u').

Dunno about addons/mods, how does XIVAlexander help with latency?

I genuinely don't care about cactbot or addons in general because they don't affect my experience with the game if I don't choose to use them. It's really that simple in my mind. I'm not a gate-keeper, I'm not gonna tell people how they should play the game and why, that's Square's job. I will say I absolutely would care about something like cactbot IF FFXIV did things the way WoW does, where they open up a new raid tier on the PTR(beta realm, essentially) first, giving people a chance to see fights ahead of time and even down them. Sure, fights may be tuned further between PTR and official release, but it would still give people an early advantage and the ability to script cactbot for new fights and they'd have that advantage going into a world first race. That would be where I draw the line. As it stands now, this isn't possible. Content gets released for everyone at the same time, and it's the most even playing field you can get during those first days/week.

World first raiders don't need Cactbot. None of the content in this game requires Cactbot in the slightest, and thus I highly doubt any of the world first competing static groups would be taking the time between wipes to code/script cactbot to do callouts for them lol. I know people who've used it, and I've watched those same people screw up mechanics because they followed what cactbot told them explicitly, only the PF group was doing a different strat in terms of positioning, so they went to the wrong spot and got people killed, etc. I think calling it a cheat is a bit of a stretch considering thousands of players kill content without it on a daily basis, and the people killing the content first are 99.9% doing it without it. The high-end raiders and skillful players aren't the ones who will end up getting hurt the most by a cactbot "ban wave", it'll absolutely be more casual players/raiders who think they can't do content without it and thus choose to use it. I'd much rather Square find a way to "break" Cactbot on their end rather than go around banning people for it or start scanning people's pcs for 3rd party tools, that's for sure.

If people choose to use it and keep it to themselves, it doesn't affect me or my experience at all. That's pretty much why I draw the line where I do.

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Originally Posted by LittleImp

There are plenty of folks in the high-end community that look down on Cactbot.

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Nothing worse than getting 10-15 minutes deep into an ultimate and someones ACT/Cacbot stops working and suddenly the entire run is over.
And then they admit to it, nah fam just say you flunked or something unless your ACT started calling mechs out over the mic(which was a big issue for one of my groups because 2 people had 2 ACTs calling out mech's in perfect alex and both were wrong) I don't want to know you can't do this fight without it..

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Originally Posted by EryxGG

I think calling it a cheat is a bit of a stretch considering thousands of players kill content without it on a daily basis, and the people killing the content first are 99.9% doing it without it.

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I agree with your entire post except this particular part. Flawed logic imo.

This is similar to using a times table on a math test. Sure you can do the math without it but it'll be more challenging and take longer. Just because you or someone else can do it without it does not mean the act itself stops being "cheating".

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Originally Posted by yajnaji

Elaborate? Or are you just spouting nonsense to pretend to be smart?
Also try to detail what those "times before" were. One by one.

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https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...al-Fantasy-XIV

Here you go.

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Originally Posted by RobynDaBank

Dunno about addons/mods, how does XIVAlexander help with latency?

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A bit of a TL : DR here on a very complex and in-depth issue. I'm also probably getting a bit of the finer details of this wrong since my knowledge of XIVAlexander comes from descriptions in discords like the Balance.

After you execute an OGCD or a GCD, there is a built in 'animation lock' that's dependent on the skill, but is always at least 500ms. You are unable to use another OGCD or GCD until this 500ms+ timer is up. When you use the OGCD, the timer begins ticking down on your client, and a packet is sent to the server saying "hey, I did this OGCD, apply the damage/effect plz". The server then sends back a confirmation that you did in fact use it. Now to highlight what the primary issue is with FF14 in particular, and what XIVAlexander does based on my second hand knowledge. For this, we'll pretend someone has 100ms latency to the server.

The server receives the packet containing your attack information, and sends its acknowledgement back which also takes 100ms. By this point, your animation lock has 300ms on it remaining. But the moment your client receives the acknowledgement, the animation lock timer resets back to 500ms for whatever reason. So rather than just counting out the remaining 300ms, your animation lock is now 500ms again. Meaning once that finishes counting down, your total time on the animation lock was 500ms + the latency of a round trip to the server and back again. What was only a 500ms lock has suddenly turned into 700ms to complete the OGCD. This would mean 2x OGCD occupies 1.4s of your GCD window. Part of that time gets eaten up by the animation lock of the actual GCD. If the GCD & 2x OGCD all take up 700ms of time to execute, this leaves you with basically 400ms or less worth of time depending on your GCD to press buttons and get everything done before you clip your GCD.

That's just with 100ms. try something like 150ms:

-Use GCD. 150ms to server., animation lock now at 350ms.
-Server sends packet back. Animation lock which was at 200ms, is now back at 500ms, meaning the total time on that GCD was 800ms.
-Use 1st OGCD. 150ms to server, 150 back. 1st OGCD takes 800ms to execute. total time on GCD is now 1.6s
-use 2nd OGCD. 150ms to server, 150 back. 2nd OGCD takes 800ms to execute. Total time on GCD is now 2.4s <--- Depending on skillspeed, this can cause GCD clipping directly, or give the person literally zero breathing room.

The higher your latency, the more exponentially you get punished.

What XIVAlexander does is basically forces the client to effectively not reset the 500ms lock when it receives the server reply by letting it reset and then forcefully subtracting the time of latency the packet took to reach the server from the newly resetted 500ms. Let's see this with an example of 150ms:
-use GCD, client sends packet out. 500ms lock begins counting down. 150ms to the server, 150ms back. Animation lock is now at 200ms, gets reset back to 500ms.
-XIVAlexander now forcefully tricks the client into subtracting that 300ms the round trip took from the 500ms, meaning it's back to 200ms. Remaining 200ms counts out, 1st GCD took 500ms + the few ms it took for the animation lock to reset + XIValexander to inject and change the variable. Total time spent is ~510 ms.
-1st OGCD follows the same routine, XIVAlexander makes it so the effective ms was only ~510. Total time on animation lock is now 1.02s.
-2nd OGCD follow the same routine. Total time on animation lock between GCD & 2x OGCDs is now only 1.53s.

Without XIVAlexander, that person with 150ms has to spend 2.4s double weaving. With it, they shave off an ENTIRE SECOND of time for wiggle room with 1.53s, making double weaving infinitely easier.

Again, details are likely not perfect in my examples, but the base idea is XIVAlexander adjusts the animation lock using your latency as a subtractor to get it as close to the base animation lock as possible.

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Originally Posted by Enjuden

That is the most blatant lie I have ever read on this forum, and I've seen a lot. Are you seriously going to tell me that world first groups will not hire someone to code that specific timeline? Really? I guarantee you this will happen on the new Ultimate for world first prog.

XIVAlexander does a lot, and I do mean a lot of things that are good. But it's also a blatant third party cheat because the developers made the game so dysfunctional for people with medium to high latency. Zero animation lock for perfect triple weave (which you can never ever do normally), being able to tell exactly where melee range is on the screen always via a hud display, the ability to know exactly what to do years ahead of when the mechanic comes out. It's DBD if the developers of it were allowed to completely break the flow of the game itself. If you want an extreme example, you could double weave during Hypercharge with that program.

Don't be an apologist.

Edit - Slash through is different plug in/changed wording to not associate the two. Woops.

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Cactbot has to my experience and knowledge never been up for update first week just cause of the world first race. Generally ACT is down the first few days as well.

Where did I say a group wouldn't hire a developer to get it up and running? Nowhere cause I don't speculate in what a group does and does not, but I can promise that if the truth got out and a world first race team was caught to used cactbot or a AM tool, they'd be frown upon by the community, maybe former WoW racers wouldn't bat an eye due to they used to DBM and the like.

So before you attack me and accusing me for lying, take a step back please. This hostile tone isn't very constructive.

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Originally Posted by SenseiMaria

<super helpful info snipped>

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Thank you so much for the explanation!

they should set up a streaming taskforce and go through everyone's public streams and banning every one of them who are in violation they aren't violating your privacy because you choose to share it for the whole world to see your tos breaking

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Originally Posted by _Koneko_

they should set up a streaming taskforce and go through everyone's public streams and banning every one of them who are in violation they aren't violating your privacy because you choose to share it for the whole world to see your tos breaking

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There is no incentive for them as they'd lose money that way. Same reason we don't see more bots getting banned.
As much I'd love to see it as well.

Not to mention, they could simply hide ACT and whatever 3rd party to show up on stream. So it would just be wasted resources on monitoring twitch.

You'll have to see FFXI and Asura server to see where the damage could go by letting 3rd party without consequence.

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Originally Posted by Nexxus

You'll have to see FFXI and Asura server to see where the damage could go by letting 3rd party without consequence.

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Please explain. If you're refering to Windower, it get same treatment as ACT or XIVlauncher. It doesn't hurt the game.
They did ban a lot of people with the savage dupe glitch, so it's not like they don't act, although this is probably 12-15 years ago.

I don't play on Asura but on most if not all servers you have a botting issue but other than that I'm not aware of any 3rd party people are generally using outside of Windower or Ashita.

No, not windower (neither Ashita), a lot of ppl use bot to exp their job point or automate reisenjima wyrm without being present. even for ENM there is an auto pop/loot coffer with rinse and repeat.
I've seen a lot of player (not RMT) using thoses bots, some friend tried to convinced me to use them because everyone does.
Some mercenary are selling Job Point too with thoses bots.
There's also a pluging that doesn't push you back when getting hit by a mechanic that should do it.
There's also some tools to teleport you anywhere even if you dont have touched it.
And some others stuffs.

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Originally Posted by Nethereal

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This is similar to using a times table on a math test. Sure you can do the math without it but it'll be more challenging and take longer. Just because you or someone else can do it without it does not mean the act itself stops being "cheating".

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You say this, but it's nothing more but training wheels.
You can either go the slightly harder way without using them, or slighter the easier way with.
Ultimately it doesn't not change your bike skills, nor the process how you ride or keep balance. All it does is alter the learning curve.

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Originally Posted by Sotaris

Cactbot has to my experience and knowledge never been up for update first week just cause of the world first race. Generally ACT is down the first few days as well.

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I think you might be mistaken. From the cactbot developer:

"Partially it depends on how fast the ffxiv plugin gets updated relative to when I run / when people hand me logs and how much free time I have and how much other people contribute. Eden's Gate came out on 2019-08-30, and e1s/e2s came out that day, e3s had something 2019-08-31, and e4s on 2019-09-01? Eden's Verse came out on 2020-02-18 and had e5s/e7s 2020-02-23, e6s/e8s 2020-02-24. Eden's Promise was 2020-12-08 and had e9s/e10s on 2020-12-09, e11s 2020-12-10, and e12s 2020-12-11?
Patches (and logs) welcome?"

So in theory, it could be updated before the first lockout is finished. I would safely bet that by this time, most WF groups are already done, but those not racing would probably be able to start using it pretty quickly.

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Originally Posted by Menriq

I think you might be mistaken. From the cactbot developer:

"Partially it depends on how fast the ffxiv plugin gets updated relative to when I run / when people hand me logs and how much free time I have and how much other people contribute. Eden's Gate came out on 2019-08-30, and e1s/e2s came out that day, e3s had something 2019-08-31, and e4s on 2019-09-01? Eden's Verse came out on 2020-02-18 and had e5s/e7s 2020-02-23, e6s/e8s 2020-02-24. Eden's Promise was 2020-12-08 and had e9s/e10s on 2020-12-09, e11s 2020-12-10, and e12s 2020-12-11?
Patches (and logs) welcome?"

So in theory, it could be updated before the first lockout is finished. I would safely bet that by this time, most WF groups are already done, but those not racing would probably be able to start using it pretty quickly.

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If I'm misinformed, I'll take the L.

I don't quite understand that dates, but my point was more so of cactbot wouldn't be updated when the race was on and developer comment seem to confirm that.

I also don't believe any world first racer uses cactbot in any case, since why would they need a callout when they learning the fight while racing?

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Originally Posted by Nexxus

No, not windower (neither Ashita), a lot of ppl use bot to exp their job point or automate reisenjima wyrm without being present. even for ENM there is an auto pop/loot coffer with rinse and repeat.
I've seen a lot of player (not RMT) using thoses bots, some friend tried to convinced me to use them because everyone does.
Some mercenary are selling Job Point too with thoses bots.
There's also a pluging that doesn't push you back when getting hit by a mechanic that should do it.
There's also some tools to teleport you anywhere even if you dont have touched it.
And some others stuffs.

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You're talking about bots, bots isn't tolerated here nor in XI. They just as bad on enforcing it on both games.

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Originally Posted by Sotaris

You're talking about bots, bots isn't tolerated here nor in XI. They just as bad on enforcing it on both games.

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Pretty sure he's just saying he thinks that could be XIV in the future given SE handles bots pretty much the same way in both games.

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Originally Posted by Sotaris

If I'm misinformed, I'll take the L.

I don't quite understand that dates, but my point was more so of cactbot wouldn't be updated when the race was on and developer comment seem to confirm that.

I also don't believe any world first racer uses cactbot in any case, since why would they need a callout when they learning the fight while racing?

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It's not so much about taking the L, but rather that the potential is there for it to be used. I've done WF / Server first racing before, and it wasn't a far stretch to watch others stream when we weren't raiding to see what other groups were doing. In WoW, the WF guilds literally have WA / addon developers on their payroll to develop what they need on the fly. I don't know much about the race here, so this is all just speculating, but I could see a WF group having someone working on triggers and what not while the group is progressing. In the same breath, I also don't think they would need it and will probably be just fine without it. Those who might not be WF, but might be going for 1st or 2nd week clears might benefit from it more. As for the dates, it breaks down like this:

EG Release: August 30th, 2019
E1S and E2S update: August 30th, 2019
E3S update: August 31st, 2019
E4S update: September 1st, 2019.

So roughly within 2 days, cactbot was updated initially for Edens gate.

I'm actually weirdly thankful to 3rd party tool using cheaters. Especially if those muppets stream or pose as some kind of world first clearing heroes.

Nothing keeps me more effectively from wasting my time with being interested in what they do.

"But even without cheats they're 100x better raider than you."

That's whole other conversation, and even then I don't really care either. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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Originally Posted by Menriq

In the same breath, I also don't think they would need it and will probably be just fine without it. Those who might not be WF, but might be going for 1st or 2nd week clears might benefit from it more.

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Yep, and if they use it after 1st lockout, it's a completely different discussion.

WF racers would use it if it were available, but due to the parsing plugin being maintained more-or-less by a single person, they generally can't. It's gotten a lot faster over the years, but it still takes time for the update to come out, which occasionally exceeds the length of the words-first race.

Instead WF folks do stuff like data-mine out tooltips and fight dialogue ahead of time and try to divine what they can from that, among other things.

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Originally Posted by _Koneko_

they should set up a streaming taskforce and go through everyone's public streams and banning every one of them who are in violation they aren't violating your privacy because you choose to share it for the whole world to see your tos breaking

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The reality is that addons like these actually make them more money than they lose, for the time being. Damage parsing grants increased longevity to certain content, like it or not. I know many people who continue to raid for additional months simply because they're interested in improving their personal best on the fights. Even Cactbot probably has a positive subscriber impact in terms of getting more people to spend more time tackling hard content that they otherwise might avoid.

Yoshi-P is pretty aware of the culture around things like ACT, having played many other mmo's and is himself a very competent player. His policy around them has been shaped by that awareness, and I highly doubt we'll see a major crackdown any time soon.

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Originally Posted by _Koneko_

they should set up a streaming taskforce and go through everyone's public streams and banning every one of them who are in violation they aren't violating your privacy because you choose to share it for the whole world to see your tos breaking

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Lol, they'd ending up banning all of their big content creators. Brilliant idea that...

Yoshi-p said he doesn't want to hype or promote World First races because of 3rd party, so he knows most use them and there's nothing to do, just that they can't/won't support them and ban if used maliciously.

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Originally Posted by _Koneko_

they should set up a streaming taskforce and go through everyone's public streams and banning every one of them who are in violation they aren't violating your privacy because you choose to share it for the whole world to see your tos breaking

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Yes, lets ban there best free advertising for the game over something they only enforce when it relates to harrassment.

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Originally Posted by BristolRuss

Lol, they'd ending up banning all of their big content creators. Brilliant idea that...

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So its Rules for Thee, not for me huh? Streamer privilege I guess. They are livestreaming a breach/rule break. They should get first a 3 day ban, then if repeat offence 1 week, and another breach, Permaban imo
Soon Addons and this Simtool will be demanded implemented into the game itself. This game has done really well long before all these new streamers came to this game, and atm the problems they bring due to unavaiable parts for servers might cause EW launch log in to be a nightmare

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Originally Posted by Altera

So its Rules for Thee, not for me huh? Streamer privilege I guess. They are livestreaming a breach/rule break. They should get first a 3 day ban, then if repeat offence 1 week, and another breach, Permaban imo
Soon Addons and this Simtool will be demanded implemented into the game itself. This game has done really well long before all these new streamers came to this game, and atm the problems they bring due to unavaiable parts for servers might cause EW launch log in to be a nightmare

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Not at all, you also won't get banned for them as long as you don't use them harass people. Yoshi P has even said if you are getting banned for the 3rd party addons, your are likely already in trouble for some other violation. Yoshi P also said that technically, Discord is 3rd party, so if they enforced it as written, anyone using discord would also be banned.

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Originally Posted by Nothv13

Not at all, you also won't get banned for them as long as you don't use them harass people. Yoshi P has even said if you are getting banned for the 3rd party addons, your are likely already in trouble for some other violation. Yoshi P also said that technically, Discord is 3rd party, so if they enforced it as written, anyone using discord would also be banned.

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He also said to respect the ToS and not openly show using 3rd party software. I would say when promoting those very same things, is the opposite of respect. If Yoshida asked me to not do something, I would honor him by doing it.
These streamers are pretty much pooping on his wishes

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Originally Posted by Altera

He also said to respect the ToS and not openly show using 3rd party software. I would say when promoting those very same things, is the opposite of respect. If Yoshida asked me to not do something, I would honor him by doing it.
These streamers are pretty much pooping on his wishes

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You do you. People will continue to use them. No use getting bent out of shape.

BTW, these addons have been around long before these streamers came to FFXIV. The only newish one I've seen making the rounds seems to be Limit's UI addon, everything else has been around for years and the only reason you didn't notice is because using them to harass or requiring them is what triggers the infraction, thus they aren't spoken of in game.

Edit: Would say logitech g software be illegal? It can run macros and allow you to do things you wouldn't normally be able to do (such is a violation of the EULA)? If so, guess Yoshi P would be banned as well since he uses such. How about all the glitches people use to decorate house? Such abuses are also against the EULA. Going to ban them? See the issue with being hard nosed with the EULA yet?

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Originally Posted by Nothv13

Yoshi P also said that technically, Discord is 3rd party, so if they enforced it as written, anyone using discord would also be banned.

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I don't get how Discord is comparable to Cactbot, ACT, and similar stuff. Discord is for communication. It doesn't affect the game itself and doesn't modify it. By this logic, would we also be banned for using phones to talk to someone while playing the game together? It's ludicrous.

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Originally Posted by Eien713

I don't get how Discord is comparable to Cactbot, ACT, and similar stuff. Discord is for communication. It doesn't affect the game itself or modifies it. By this logic, would we also be banned for using phones to talk to someone while playing the game together? It's ludicrous.

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Because the EULA words it in such a way that Discord would be caught in it. Discord modifies your gameplay by allowing voiced communication, something the game itself does not allow. Communication is huge when high end raiding and drastically changes how the raiding would play out. We just take it for granted and not realize that it does violate the EULA by modifying gameplay. In Truth, there are so many things that violate the EULA that people do every day, enforcing everything but the most egregious would devastate the community.

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Originally Posted by Nothv13

Because the EULA words it in such a way that Discord would be caught in it. Discord modifies your gameplay by allowing voiced communication, something the game itself does not allow. Communication is huge when high end raiding and drastically changes how the raiding would play out. We just take it for granted and not realize that it does violate the EULA by modifying gameplay. In Truth, there are so many things that violate the EULA that people do every day, enforcing everything but the most egregious would devastate the community.

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I still think this is a reach. We can use phones to communicate, or any other means, really. Play Station players can use the PS VC with their fellow PS players. Using Discord or communication tools is no different from being in the same room as someone or close enough to them for you to be able to talk to each other and communicate. Communication is not the same as using a program to automate stuff for you because it's still a human being you're interacting with.