I was issued a warning no info given. Thought our party finder issues were resolved?

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Originally Posted by RavenEbonclaw

Thing is, even if they are, people deserve clear notification as to WHY action is taken against them.

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This is absolutely correct.

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Originally Posted by Saefinn

As long as people don't break the ToS doing so, they can use the PF for anything they want, this is the clarification the community reps gave. Granted spam would count as breaking the ToS.

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Here is the issue though. Much of the ToS is broad and subjective. What is spam? Is emoting 5 times considered spam? How about posting a PF for an event that night? Would asking a question in chat repeatedly without a response be considered spam? The ToS is worded in such a way that yes, all of the above could be considered spam by one person and/or GM but not another person and/or GM. There is no clarity on the ToS.

Okay, I wasn't gonna weigh in, but I feel like I should mention: I got in trouble for violating ToS with coarse language in-game. I was issued a warning and told, in so many words, not to do it again. I was reported by one or more standersby in Limsa Lominsa, for repeatedly transmitting, in the public /say channel, insults to another player on a coarse level. I know that for two reasons: one, I knew someone was going to report me, but two--and this is the big one that makes me wish I could see the future back then--the GM's letter to me TOLD ME that I used coarse language that violated the FFXIV Terms of Service.

At what point did the GMs stop telling people exactly what they did wrong? Or is it because 10+ people saw what I said that the GM felt safe telling me what I did? Because there was proof? Hmmm...

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Originally Posted by Kikoten

Okay, I wasn't gonna weigh in, but I feel like I should mention: I got in trouble for violating ToS with coarse language in-game. I was issued a warning and told, in so many words, not to do it again. I was reported by one or more standersby in Limsa Lominsa, for repeatedly transmitting, in the public /say channel, insults to another player on a coarse level. I know that for two reasons: one, I knew someone was going to report me, but two--and this is the big one that makes me wish I could see the future back then--the GM's letter to me TOLD ME that I used coarse language that violated the FFXIV Terms of Service.

At what point did the GMs stop telling people exactly what they did wrong? Or is it because 10+ people saw what I said that the GM felt safe telling me what I did? Because there was proof? Hmmm...

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Might just be the random nature of the GM, or with the amount of people involved with the report. I know I personally got told what I did wrong after bad mouthing and personally berating all of novice network and mentors present between two other players in novice network in German.

GM did tell me straight up what I did. Though other times I was report I just got the the rule I broke.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kikoten

Okay, I wasn't gonna weigh in, but I feel like I should mention: I got in trouble for violating ToS with coarse language in-game. I was issued a warning and told, in so many words, not to do it again. I was reported by one or more standersby in Limsa Lominsa, for repeatedly transmitting, in the public /say channel, insults to another player on a coarse level. I know that for two reasons: one, I knew someone was going to report me, but two--and this is the big one that makes me wish I could see the future back then--the GM's letter to me TOLD ME that I used coarse language that violated the FFXIV Terms of Service.

At what point did the GMs stop telling people exactly what they did wrong? Or is it because 10+ people saw what I said that the GM felt safe telling me what I did? Because there was proof? Hmmm...

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You got lucky and got the one and only GM that actually tells you then. Any time I've ever dealt with a GM be it for reporting someone or having been reported by someone it's so vague that the dense fogs in mor dhona seems crystal clear.

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Originally Posted by Kikoten

At what point did the GMs stop telling people exactly what they did wrong? Or is it because 10+ people saw what I said that the GM felt safe telling me what I did? Because there was proof? Hmmm...

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It's pretty inconsistent, and as I understand it the GMs get pretty broad instructions, so it might just be up to GMs discretion.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kikoten

Okay, I wasn't gonna weigh in, but I feel like I should mention: I got in trouble for violating ToS with coarse language in-game. I was issued a warning and told, in so many words, not to do it again. I was reported by one or more standersby in Limsa Lominsa, for repeatedly transmitting, in the public /say channel, insults to another player on a coarse level. I know that for two reasons: one, I knew someone was going to report me, but two--and this is the big one that makes me wish I could see the future back then--the GM's letter to me TOLD ME that I used coarse language that violated the FFXIV Terms of Service.

At what point did the GMs stop telling people exactly what they did wrong? Or is it because 10+ people saw what I said that the GM felt safe telling me what I did? Because there was proof? Hmmm...

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The way i see it, is that the GM's have ranks (based on experience and how long they have filled the position within the team). The "Seniors" will be able to give a more insight into the violation, while the "Juniors" follow a script where they inform you that you've violated the terms of service and that the actual reason will me mailed to you. Customer Support Desks (like the one i'm working for) usually follow this route, so that the juniors can process as many "entry level" violations as possible, while the seniors handle the cases that require more attention. As the player base grows, you will need additional GM's to handle cases like this. These GM's will have to go through (communication / protocol) training and work their way up the ladder, before they are allowed to do/say more.

If i read the chat messages in the screenshots posted earlier, it looked like one of the "juniors" handling the case where they would follow a specific protocol to inform that the player has violated the Terms of Service, but can't give (mostly due to policy/permissions) any additional information. It doesn't even have to be about the whole "RP PF" thing, but that people have reported the player for something entirely different (like use "profanity" while being in a Duty Instance).

From my professional point of view; If a general statement (that said player has violated the Terms of Service) isn't sufficient and asks for details as to why they are being pulled to the "jail" for it, i would also expect them to be honest to the player and tell them that it was "due to the use of profanity in instanced content". That alone should be enough for the player and additional information could be sent via email.

But, this is not about GM's "lying" or being on a "RP PF witch hunt", but my view on the issue and it could be improved. I, for one, would love to have a talk with a GM and have a good / civil conversation about how these cases are handled by them, maybe even share experiences. I mean, in the end we're all players who want to enjoy playing FFXIV.

It's really hard to believe GMs would be giving warning/strikes just because one person simply doesn't like you and a report based on nothing is ground for punishment.
I've been reported more than once and for arguably valid reasons and never got a single warning or any kind of punishment. And I know most players don't even know what a warning is because they just keep in line. Also recent events have shown that people wrongfully striked have been cleared.

So you say that 18+ doesn't mean ERP, and while that may be true for some of you for others it can also be a way to disguise ERP.
Now take it from an outsider perspective :
- ERP => pretty explicit
- 18+ => seems suggestive that ERP could happen

I'm afraid people want a line to be drawn in the sand to better fool around it to be honest.
Anyway, don't advertise adult content to an audience partly underaged. That seems to be the problem.

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Originally Posted by Vaern

I'm afraid people want a line to be drawn in the sand to better fool around it to be honest.
Anyway, don't advertise adult content to an audience partly underaged. That seems to be the problem.

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I guess we should also ban any 18+ FC's that are recruiting then. After all, they put 18+ in their description, so it must be that they're just a bunch of sweaty dudes wanting to share their porn over discord.

(If it wasn't obvious, no, that's not true at all.)

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Originally Posted by Jijifli

I guess we should also ban any 18+ FC's that are recruiting then. After all, they put 18+ in their description, so it must be that they're just a bunch of sweaty dudes wanting to share their porn over discord.

(If it wasn't obvious, no, that's not true at all.)

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TBH if they went that route and gave everyone warning first first for the 18+ thing like what happened to the OP in the other thread then I do not think many would be annoyed by it.

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Originally Posted by Jijifli

I guess we should also ban any 18+ FC's that are recruiting then. After all, they put 18+ in their description, so it must be that they're just a bunch of sweaty dudes wanting to share their porn over discord.

(If it wasn't obvious, no, that's not true at all.)

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Actually .. some FC do exactly that, they have a nsfw channel in their discord server.
But I fail to see when FC recruitement ads in PF were the target of warnings/strikes in the first place. I might have missed it.

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Originally Posted by Nothv13

Here is the issue though. Much of the ToS is broad and subjective. What is spam? Is emoting 5 times considered spam? How about posting a PF for an event that night? Would asking a question in chat repeatedly without a response be considered spam? The ToS is worded in such a way that yes, all of the above could be considered spam by one person and/or GM but not another person and/or GM. There is no clarity on the ToS.

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Yes if you use the same emote 5 times in a row rigth after each other, then it is spam/flood if it show up as text, it is spam if you cast Holy or any other skill on repeat in a populated area as well... spam/flood/trolling to trigger players, is also text that is in the way or show up where it is not supposed to show up, hence the word spam... it comes from e-mails with spam mail or adverts that pop up in your mailbox, somtimes not even on your request if not all the time.

Spam is not only just repeating the same thing over and over again or doing the same thing over and over again, it is a wide area and the ToS do cover it.

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Originally Posted by Themarvin

Yes if you use the same emote 5 times in a row rigth after each other, then it is spam/flood if it show up as text, it is spam if you cast Holy or any other skill on repeat in a populated area as well... spam/flood/trolling to trigger players, is also text that is in the way or show up where it is not supposed to show up, hence the word spam... it comes from e-mails with spam mail or adverts that pop up in your mailbox, somtimes not even on your request if not all the time.

Spam is not only just repeating the same thing over and over again or doing the same thing over and over again, it is a wide area and the ToS do cover it.

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I know where spam comes from. But as I said what is considered enough to be spam varies from individual to individual, thus it has no clarity.

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Originally Posted by Vaern

Actually .. some FC do exactly that, they have a nsfw channel in their discord server.
But I fail to see when FC recruitement ads in PF were the target of warnings/strikes in the first place. I might have missed it.

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That's the point. They aren't.

People only care about the 18+ tag if it's seen with RP. If we're just gonna assume 18+ rp means erp, then we might as well start assuming every 18+ fc means porn (And shocker, it doesn't actually.)

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Originally Posted by Jijifli

That's the point. They aren't.

People only care about the 18+ tag if it's seen with RP. If we're just gonna assume 18+ rp means erp, then we might as well start assuming every 18+ fc means porn (And shocker, it doesn't actually.)

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But .. they're different things. If you wanna treat them the same way you do you. In the end I don't really care.
It's not like recruiting 18+ people gives any guarantee about their maturity, sociability or ability to hold interesting conversation.

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Originally Posted by Vaern

But .. they're different things. If you wanna treat them the same way you do you. In the end I don't really care.

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I was moreso poking at the "If it's 18+ RP it MUST be sexual" stuff. I was poking that they wanna act like that for that stuff, but when it comes to anything else that might slap the tag, they don't get uppity about potentially "sending actual porn to a minor" as their words would be.

There. I explained the meme. I'm gonna go rot in the cellar now.

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Originally Posted by Nothv13

I know where spam comes from. But as I said what is considered enough to be spam varies from individual to individual, thus it has no clarity.

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There are people who will deliberately do things considered bad but stay just within the rules, and feel good about having disrupted and gave other people a bad day. I believe a lot of us have heard of or even experienced it. That's why they can't be very specific about what constitues spam, or many other kind of harassment.

There are many vague rules like that everywhere, including in the criminal law of your country, no doubt. So there will always be some kind of discretion exercised somewhere, even when it is to decide if a person should be killed or shut away for life. That's just how the human society (and any human community) is, and there's no avoiding that.

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Originally Posted by Zfz

There are people who will deliberately do things considered bad but stay just within the rules, and feel good about having disrupted and gave other people a bad day. I believe a lot of us have heard of or even experienced it. That's why they can't be very specific about what constitues spam, or many other kind of harassment.

There are many vague rules like that everywhere, including in the criminal law of your country, no doubt. So there will always be some kind of discretion exercised somewhere, even when it is to decide if a person should be killed or shut away for life. That's just how the human society (and any human community) is, and there's no avoiding that.

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With law you can fight it. With this is just sorry, with no information on what to correct. People will be dickholes no matter what, the more vague you go to protect against that the more take away the ability of people to actually learn from their mistakes. We should not drop everything down to essentially the lowest common denominator.

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Originally Posted by Nothv13

With law you can fight it. With this is just sorry, with no information on what to correct. People will be dickholes no matter what, the more vague you go to protect against that the more take away the ability of people to actually learn from their mistakes. We should not drop everything down to essentially the lowest common denominator.

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This is operating under the assumption that they care if people learn from their mistakes, or it could just be the cultural aspect where they just assumption the person has a general idea what they did wrong and leave it at that. Either way in both cases no need to have a strict guideline. Their rule structure just seems to operate on just do as your told.

Do not get me wrong I do feel people should get a clear explanation for why they are being punished, bit those in controller clearly feel otherwise.

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Originally Posted by Nothv13

With this is just sorry, with no information on what to correct.

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I agree that is a problem and that it should be fixed. I'm just saying that there is a reason why some rules are vague. We can keep the rules vague to protect the behaving players while still punishing the misbehaving ones. It is the way GMs dish out punishments that needs changing, not the way the rules are worded.

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Originally Posted by Cerver

Second off, if you don't like 18+ RP thats fine. I actually agree that 18+ RP should never be in public, and should be stuck to designated venues, along with 18+ content being done privately.

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I think it's more about people using FFXIV as a tool to do 18+ activities, ignoring the semantics of if this is part of "online MMO culture" or not, it comes under the whole lewd/obscene section of the ToS which was quoted last time there was a big hufuff about this.

If people wanna do their 18+ stuff in game, stop advertising it in game and keep it private. There are plenty of Discords for this. I don't get how this is difficult.

It's ok people. SE is cracking down hard on RP players! Meanwhile bots are still EVERYWHERE and non-stop spamming in /say the SAME websites over and over. SE can't even add some server side regex to detect these copy/paste spam message to auto ban them.

BUT THEY ARE ON THE BALL GOING AFTER THE RP PLAYERS!

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Originally Posted by Krojack

It's ok people. SE is cracking down hard on RP players! Meanwhile bots are still EVERYWHERE and non-stop spamming in /say the SAME websites over and over. SE can't even add some server side regex to detect these copy/paste spam message to auto ban them.

BUT THEY ARE ON THE BALL GOING AFTER THE RP PLAYERS!

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Except it's not simply "RP players". It is RP players breaking the ToS. Some are not even actual RP players. I do wish they'd get a handle on the bot/RMT situation though.

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

Except it's not simply "RP players". It is RP players breaking the ToS. Some are not even actual RP players. I do wish they'd get a handle on the bot/RMT situation though.

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I don't put erpers who publicly advertise their services in the same category as general rp. Much like how I don't put people who sell savage and ultimate kills in the same category as other raiders.

I’m all for an AO server. Well me and my girlfriend were at a union meet me, her, and one of her union brothers got in the hot tub. My girlfriend was complaining it was 10pm and children were in the pool and it should be adults only after a certain time.

Her union brother complained that kids should have fun and we should be understanding. When we left on our way out we noticed what looked like a 7 year old white girl got into the hot tub with her union brother who was in his early 40s and black and stared at him until he left because he felt uncomfortable.

We are paying for a service that is 16 and up. I don’t know or see that many 16 year olds playing but they need servers just those who are adults.

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

Except it's not simply "RP players". It is RP players breaking the ToS. Some are not even actual RP players. I do wish they'd get a handle on the bot/RMT situation though.

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In of two minds if your yelling things that’s spamming for the most part. Why can’t people RP in /say

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Originally Posted by Vaern

But .. they're different things. If you wanna treat them the same way you do you. In the end I don't really care.
It's not like recruiting 18+ people gives any guarantee about their maturity, sociability or ability to hold interesting conversation.

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As someone who has worked with child sex offenders and sex offenders who are labeled such for things as small as urinating in public it does matter when your activity engaging in Adult conversations with people under 18 because age shouldn’t matter according to people like yourself because ‘maturity’

It does matter when for the rest of your life yearly, quarterly, or monthly you have to take a photo at your local police station so you can update your information for your state’s and the National Sex Offender Registry.

I don’t role play but I understand that adults are trying to keep among themselves and children separate. That can be a very good thing and it helps protect the adult from having to deal with people like me.

Also anyone reading this be forewarned with anyone with the mentality of the guy I am quoting because his logic will get you locked up.

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Originally Posted by Jijifli

I guess we should also ban any 18+ FC's that are recruiting then. After all, they put 18+ in their description, so it must be that they're just a bunch of sweaty dudes wanting to share their porn over discord.

(If it wasn't obvious, no, that's not true at all.)

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Optics matter. I think the wording should be differently like ‘Free Company for Adult Adventurers no children or teenagers are allowed’

18+ wording gives the impression it’s about porn

Since the ToS states “This game is for those 13 years and older. You agree to behave accordingly” simply putting 18+ isn’t going to make you suddenly immune to the TOS, and any 18+ language/actions, be it sexual or not, is still against ToS. It is what it is.

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Originally Posted by HisShadowX

Optics matter. I think the wording should be differently like ‘Free Company for Adult Adventurers no children or teenagers are allowed’

18+ wording gives the impression it’s about porn

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Also typing 18+ doesn't stop minors interacting with them and imagine how horrified anyone would be if it turned out they were engaging in semi sexual or fully sexual RP with a minor?

But honestly, people only really request one thing and it's that ERPers keep it on Discord and in private DMs/Private parties and out of PF/Shout Chat/Say Chat etc. Just head onto discord if needs be if you're looking for a in-game "venue" to do it.

Honestly, the more we weed out the open advertisement of ERP the easier life normal RPers will have in game.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HisShadowX

As someone who has worked with child sex offenders and sex offenders who are labeled such for things as small as urinating in public it does matter when your activity engaging in Adult conversations with people under 18 because age shouldn’t matter according to people like yourself because ‘maturity’

It does matter when for the rest of your life yearly, quarterly, or monthly you have to take a photo at your local police station so you can update your information for your state’s and the National Sex Offender Registry.

I don’t role play but I understand that adults are trying to keep among themselves and children separate. That can be a very good thing and it helps protect the adult from having to deal with people like me.

Also anyone reading this be forewarned with anyone with the mentality of the guy I am quoting because his logic will get you locked up.

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This isn't about RP, ERP or anything about sex offenders ?! Did you even read the previous post to see what we were talking about ? Or do you just enjoy taking something out of context and interpreting it the way you want ?

I've been simply poking at the fact that some FC are only recruiting 18+ people for reasons I find ridiculous such as : teenagers aren't as mature/sociable/interesting as adults.

Kudos for your imagination but please don't make me say things I never did. You're crazy if you think I said or implied that age didn't matter for anything sex related.

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Also typing 18+ doesn't stop minors interacting with them

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I suppose it makes them feel safer to engage with someone in a place advertised for adults than one that isn't. Granted the firmest solution to that would be not engaging in a flirtatious/erotic manner at all, but human nature's a bitch. Just look at how the forums were screeching like banshees because it took them a week to get their 2B ass.

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Originally Posted by hydralus

I suppose it makes them feel safer to engage with someone in a place advertised for adults than one that isn't. Granted the firmest solution to that would be not engaging in a flirtatious/erotic manner at all, but human nature's a bitch. Just look at how the forums were screeching like banshees because it took them a week to get their 2B ass.

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Yeah kind of shocks me in a way how people are insane people can be.

Human nature or not, it's against ToS to partake in that kind of ... stuff in the game and while FFXIV GMs have been largely lenient, I think the fact it's starting to boil over to become way more public is where it's started to need stamping down.

Look, I have no issue with people doing ERP but do it privately. If you want to get lost in a fantasy, great for you, but I think when it's sexual it should be kept private.

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Originally Posted by Lauren

Yeah kind of shocks me in a way how people are insane people can be.

Human nature or not, it's against ToS to partake in that kind of ... stuff in the game and while FFXIV GMs have been largely lenient, I think the fact it's starting to boil over to become way more public is where it's started to need stamping down.

Look, I have no issue with people doing ERP but do it privately. If you want to get lost in a fantasy, great for you, but I think when it's sexual it should be kept private.

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The problem is, at least on primal/aether, these kind of "RP" venues, are created specifically for earning gil (by the way I can't believe people even pay gil for this). Without exposure, or advertisements they cannot earn (as much) gil. Apparently, they even have to pay their "staff" gil, and their gil making (potential) is being cut by players targeting these "establishments", reporting them, and the GM's acting on it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

The problem is, at least on primal/aether, these kind of "RP" venues, are created specifically for earning gil (by the way I can't believe people even pay gil for this). Without exposure, or advertisements they cannot earn (as much) gil. Apparently, they even have to pay their "staff" gil, and their gil making (potential) is being cut by players targeting these "establishments", reporting them, and the GM's acting on it.

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Yeah, we have a guild mate that allegedly gets upwards of 250k for a 30 min session via text and 1mil for voice.

I say allegedly cause it sounds weird but they do have a private discord channel and it is FFXIV so not much shocks me.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Awha

Yeah, we have a guild mate that allegedly gets upwards of 250k for a 30 min session via text and 1mil for voice.

I say allegedly cause it sounds weird but they do have a private discord channel and it is FFXIV so not much shocks me.

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Wonder what that works out to in terms of dollars at the current gil prices lol

Might just be me but it doesn't seem like a lot for 30min of "work"

I'm not concerned by what's happening right now to RP venue and all.

However I read some screenshots posted some pages ago, about GM saying to keep in mind the age of player who could be playing this game.
I'd like to post something about this.

https://i.imgur.com/FMublBo.jpg

You can check this information on product details in this page : https://store.na.square-enix-games.c...on-pc-download

Now admitting someone is running a dancing club only (no ERP involved and even so), isn't that super hypocrite from them, considering what the rating says + what theme we know can be shown in game?
It looks like they have a problem with their own policy.

But just saying.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KDSilver

I'm not concerned by what's happening right now to RP venue and all.

However I read some screenshots posted some pages ago, about GM saying to keep in mind the age of player who could be playing this game.
I'd like to post something about this.

https://i.imgur.com/FMublBo.jpg

You can check this information on product details in this page : https://store.na.square-enix-games.c...on-pc-download

Now admitting someone is running a dancing club only (no ERP involved and even so), isn't that super hypocrite from them, considering what the rating says + what theme we know can be shown in game?
It looks like they have a problem with their own policy.

But just saying.

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Time and again people have said it: Online interactions CANNOT be rated by the ESRB. They're not static, they're not the same for everyone, it's not just a girl in a bikini dancing the Bees Knees forever in front of that one lalafell (which is what the partial nudity entails btw.) NPC interactions are static, they never change, they don't interact with you beyond their predetermined lines. Which is why s*x jokes and the like get by - they're perfectly formulated to be ESRB-rating safe. The ESRB cannot rate what happens between players BECAUSE players react, theyre not NPCs.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by hobostew

Wonder what that works out to in terms of dollars at the current gil prices lol

Might just be me but it doesn't seem like a lot for 30min of "work"

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Something around $2 an hour I think.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by hobostew

Wonder what that works out to in terms of dollars at the current gil prices lol

Might just be me but it doesn't seem like a lot for 30min of "work"

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Aye it really does not, but FFXIV gil really has no irl value from what I can tell. Hell it really does not have much in game value.