I don't I really think its a stupid ideal to add more tech based things.. more so when chemist already exist as a profession... should get something more awesome and unique with magic/tools than just throwing potions and stuff
Why does everyone want Chemist as a new job?
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10-07-2020, 12:02 PMLolitaBansheeMeru
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10-07-2020, 07:02 PMADVSS
You know what? I dont really care what the healers get anymore, i dont heal since SB anyway. Thread topic: Why does everyone want Chemist to be a new healer job. The answers: A non magical damage healing class, not stuck in robes, offering a different type of play style, instead of being a caster like the other 3, with a different aesthetic. Other people: I dont want Chemist because it will be a clone of whm. What would be new and exciting is a caster, in white robes with many spells, like whm, ast, and sch. Patch 6.0 forum topic day one in healer roles: Why are all 4 healers exactly like whm?
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10-08-2020, 12:00 AMAbsurdityBecause they most likely won't be able to make it different enough mechanically. Sure, it's gonna have different sparkly effects but if it plays as every other healer currently does then it's not gonna be more interesting than what we already have.Quote:
Originally Posted by NekoHina
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10-08-2020, 12:26 AMSeraphorThis is a fallacy though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Absurdity
"They can't make anything different so they shouldn't even bother."
If they never make another healer, then of course they'll never make anything different. -
10-08-2020, 02:26 AMReaperking386
I don't think we need a new job class concerning tanks or healers in general. We need a healthy balance of dps/healers/ tanks. The question is more: Why do we need a new healer class?
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10-08-2020, 05:54 AMAbsurdityCall it a fallacy if you want to, I don't care. Fact is that the current 3 healers we got suffer from the same general issues and more issues specific to each job with no changes in sight or even acknowledgement from the devs that a problem exists. The expansion is already over a year old and there has been no attempt to change this, call me cynical but I'm not getting my hopes up that this will magically improve just because they add a 4th one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seraphor
The newly added healer will throw out strong oGCD healing while keeping their 1 dot up and spamming their 1 dps button for 60+% of a fight, with some GCD single target and aoe heals to fall back on if needed. Whether those come in the form of elemental magics or alchemical phials will change the look of the job but not it's general gameplay. Maybe it will have some unique mechanic like AST but it can neither be too complicated or people will complain nor too strong or it will upset their important balance.
If I'm proven to be wrong with 6.0 then all the better. -
10-08-2020, 07:21 AMIlenya4 Tanks, 3 healers, 10 DPS (3 casters, 4 melee, 3 ranged).Quote:
Originally Posted by Reaperking386
So why do you think we don't need more healers? Was this a serious comment?
Also. Most recent DPS? Dancer in Shadowbringers, July 9, 2019.
Most recent Melee and Magic DPS? Red Mage and Samurai, Stormblood, June 20, 2017.
Most recent tank? Gunbreaker, Shadowbringers, see date above.
Most recent healer? Astrologian, Heavensward, June 23, 2015.
So, again. Do you think Healers just...Don't deserve anything new?
Once again, taking comments like this with the assumption you don't actually have anything of value to add. "Oh, a DoH exists, therefore it can't be a DoW/M" Get down off your high horse.Quote:
Originally Posted by LolitaBansheeMeru
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10-08-2020, 07:43 AMRai_Takara
People need to remember that Chemist could also end up as a Ranged DPS and not assume it's a healer. Same thing happened with dancer and look what happened.
Personally, I'm unsure if Chemist will come. Sure in HW it was thought of as a potential item healer but then AST won out, but similarly it's possible that the way Chemist is envisioned by the devs will not be possible in this game as is. It might end up as a limited job like BLU.
Also want to make sure people do understand that if somehow Chemist does arrive as a healer, it won't be any different than the other healers like other people have mentioned. It never will be after the homogenization that was, rightfully, necessary to further add healing and tanking jobs. -
10-08-2020, 07:59 AMShougunTechnically we've had a number of jobs teased (not excluding other expansions), some equally to Chemist in terms of teasing level, some way less so but still exist, so I wouldn't bet significant matters on Chemist but I think it's one of the entirely likely options.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rai_Takara
That said now that I've spoken that it might mean they'll not do it lol- it appears to me Yoshida doesn't like being too determine-able or having to do something simply because people said it has to be done (partly my observation, partly using his own words on a few different occasions- like that he said he's a contrarian, not that he will always go against something but saying he has to do something makes him sometimes think the opposite, or that while he understands consistency is good he also struggles with it because it can then mean it might get boring, not sure I'd say 'trickster' but maybe 'boxer'?).
Just means to me Chemist, and Geomancer I think, would both be pretty safe bets given all the things going on, but really anything is possible given our long history of hints and I think also the growing flexibility the team is showing (like our recent stories exampling some what dark / questionable concepts, without turning us into a super villain at least lol- one of the biggest hurdles for a dark job would be if the team showed they were unwillingly to make a situation where you wield something wild and ride out the situation as best you could, in the Dark Knight quest line and in ShB they showed they were willing to do that so most doors are open at this point given someone willing to write in enough compelling details (which funnily enough is from the same person :D <3).
What I think would be wild is if Chemist becomes limited and we get some other jobs instead that no one expected lol, I would have my "oh wot" face on XD. Huge wot face is nothing is healer( O_O @_@ ). Potentially hyper excited if it was a dark and or transformation job though, do my little tippy tap dance or something lol. -
10-08-2020, 08:30 AMCrushnightLast tank added prior to Gnb in 2019 was Drk for HW in 2015Quote:
Originally Posted by Reaperking386
Last melee dps added was Sam in 2017, before that was Nin in 2014 with patch 2.4
Last caster added was Rdm in 2017 before that was Smn in 2.0 2013
Last physical ranged added prior to Dnc in 2019 was Mch in 2015
Last healer added was Ast in 2015
I think healers have been patient enough for a new job in their category especially since it would be over 6 years since the last one, if they go for 8 years due to balance problems again, it will be a meme of incompetence on their part as it would be the 3rd expansion in a row to use that excuse which does not look good for any developer.
Chm if comes as a healer will have 1 set of AF gear tailored to it and the rest of gear sets will be designed around Whm like 95% every other expansion where Sch and Ast get the odd 1 set tailored more to their aesthetic. I mean look at Gnb and Dnc has anything been tailored to them first at all this expansion? Certainly not for Dnc.
So enjoy your robes if chemist gets added they ain't going anywhere.
As for the homogenization of tanks and healers, some was needed to allow clearer fight Design, ShB went above and beyond what was needed into unnecessary levels of homogenization that it hurt more jobs than it helped. -
10-08-2020, 09:06 AMKacho_NachoI can't speak for everyone else. I know I've wanted to play as one since completing the thaumaturge quest line.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashennae
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10-08-2020, 09:25 AMReaperking386Seems you are overly passionate on this. Even if you add another healer class it will not tip the scales on DPS going healer in the long term.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilenya
yes, they will try it out, but in the end they are going to revert back to the class role they originally played. The issue is not a new class, it's making the role interesting to balance out the need of healers. Adding another healer will only cause healers to just have healers be a little bit more diverse if you can make them more diverse.
Getting to the point of the post I don't see Alchemist being "realistic" as far as gameplay goes. A person making positions during a combat situations seems silly and having potions consistently on hand takes away that RPG element of making potions. They are going to have to figure out a way where you can make potions and be effective in the field. What weapon would they use? How would they DPS during their DPS phase? What type of healer would they be and will they over step the other healing class? Luckily you have experts working on it, but you can't expect them to make miracles happen. Vera was one thing, but a new class is another.
1. Decide on the job and its weapon.
2. Determine its primary mechanics.
3. Consult the lore and art teams to determine its aesthetic.
4. Lay out a complete list of abilities.
5. Consult the programmers about implementation.
6. Issue formal development requests to the programmers and artists.
7. Set parameters for each action.
8. Allocate resources for motions and effects.
9. Make adjustments to potency, recast time, etc.
10. Fine-tune based on testing. -
10-08-2020, 01:12 PMAllegor
We have jobs that literally start dancing, playing music, reading our fortune and spitting fish in combat so the argument of 'realism' has long jumped off the window, if it was ever there. I agree healers need better balancing other than homogenization and spell pruning, and admit to being worried they end up creating a 'WHM but with-', but to speak as if it's a guaranteed truth and therefore a waste of time is a fallacy at best and being nihilistic at worst.
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10-08-2020, 01:24 PMGucciSanThe point still stands: healers haven't gotten a new Job since HW and are long overdue for one at this point. As for how it would work and what type of healer it would slot into Yoshida has said numerous times that the Heal/Shield dichotomy is difficult to balance around and pretty much abandoned the idea in ShB. It's safe to assume going forward that any new healers on the table are essentially going to be WHM clones by having mostly heals, a shield or maybe two. Any interesting gameplay to separate themselves from the others would probably boil down to unique Job mechanics vs how the Job heals, which Chemist is an easy pick with Mix.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reaperking386
These issues you mention aren't really issues with implementing the Job. Making potions during battle isn't any more ridiculous than a Ninja making fancy hand gestures that make magic or a Bard singing and playing an instrument during a fight. You mentioned using potions would somehow take away from the "RPG element of potions" but potions are all but useless at max level and nobody uses them, so wouldn't having a Job that specializes in them reinforce that idea? If anything they're one of the most realistic Jobs you could add if we're talking gameplay and story integration. The only real issue is that some people might somehow get confused that Alchemist and Chemist would be two seperate things.
Their potions are effective because something something found a way to enhance their properties to be more effective during battle. *shrug*. This is easily handwavable away by lore and not at all a hinderance.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reaperking386
Weapons are tricky but giving them a gun of some kind to keep them at range with the other Healers seems like the best approach. If anything a single shot grenade launcher would be unique and cool since
1. Reloading before every shot means Cast Times and No ranged autos
2. Added flavor and mechanics of firing shells with healing gel/salve.
Mix would be the obvious mechanic that works like NIN mudras: you have to remember the different ingredient combinations and it raises the skill ceiling a bit. I'd personally have no failure like a Bunny for a bad mix other than forcing you to restart, and have Mix constantly available and never on CD so you can try as many times as you need if you make a mistake or need more heals.
Something you're overlooking are the people that might actually want to play Healers long term, but none of the current Healers' aesthetics appeal to them. Chemist kills 2 birds with 1 stone by giving gameplay and aesthetic variety at the same time. -
10-09-2020, 05:54 AMIlenyaI'm mostly going to ignore the first part because, by that logic, we shouldn't have gotten GNB.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reaperking386
Anyways, quick, easy answer to how they make potions on the fly? It already exists in a form. See Machinist. How do they have infinite ammo of so many types? They have the pouch thing on the side whose name I have completely blanked on gathering aether to use as ammo. Every other question makes me wonder why they should add a DPS, though. "What type would they be and will they step on other's toes?" Really? Unless they make *any* job 100% different than the ones that exist, it'll step on other jobs' toes. Dancer existing basically removed all buffing capabilities from Bard Songs. Didn't see people saying Dancer shouldn't exist because of that. Gunbreaker has the Parry stance now, didn't see DRKs saying GNB shouldn't exist because of that. AST stepped on both WHM and SCH's toes just by having the stance system, and people weren't saying it shouldn't exist.
Failed Mix makes the original Mysidian Rabbit from Setzer's slots, doing a small AoE heal on failed mix.Quote:
Originally Posted by GucciSan
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10-09-2020, 06:02 AMMhaericThe LunchBox™Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilenya
(But really, it's an aetherotransformer.) -
10-09-2020, 06:17 AMRaikaiMy usual group had a new tank after Shadowbringers because the player was really hyped for the GNB and actually learned the role and plays it fairly well. I know Chemist/Apothecary doesn't carry the same hype as a Gunblade wielder, but depending on how it would turn out, I can see some adhesion. Of course, we won't see a mass exodus anyway, because healer is the hardest role to play.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reaperking386
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10-09-2020, 06:20 AMShougunI keep picturing Chemist gets a roomba buddy, like in Death Stranding and the luggage or whatever lol. Part of the balance design to Chemist might be that when you craft a potion it has a cast bar, but it's actually on your roomba (the cast bar). Also with the thought it might be influenced by Garleans, might be called Medic or something, that then the job would gain a number of technological features too. So "see machinist" rings even further true then. Like the medic would have many gadgets, on top of their potion / concoction slinging nature, and we've already Garleans in the game that use tonics and such in combat. That open air time (while roomba mixes) can be used to queue other mixes and do else exciting (keeping a nice pace of activity)- perhaps a special passive or skill allows the buddy to have two cast bars active at once (mega craft mode lol).Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilenya
Might see you can attach stuff to your roomba too like adding a mobile shield dome, healing raidus tower, may also see turrets or whatever, tesla coil attached to your buddy.
Keeping to the roomba nature thought being a bit less commanding then SCH, and more like a passive buddy to be there for you and hold things for you (like accepting your turret attachment and then firing off at enemies).
If we're going insane maybe a super special move is the roomba going a bit iron man / Thor (Starcraft 2 - Tychus / Heroes of the Storm) and the healer getting this sort of mega siege mode lol. Launching of huge cannisters of healing gas, rockets for.. anti-healing the enemy, etc.
Anyway, I feel if you slap the engineer vibes onto Chemist then you've solved the minor name issue (Alchemist) and also opened up a huge amount of conceptual activities the job could do. While also avoiding any sort of desire for a chemist player to be like "I want to cast hi-potion on my friend" or whatever other imagery might appear with standard chemist, as a medic they'd have their own unique concocutions (like I said perhaps Garlean influenced, perhaps even Cid / Ironworks as part of the job guide team as he uses his knowledge and your aether abilities to create a new type of front line support).
I think having a healer be a bit straight forward and simple is a good idea but probably not for all of them, like some people who play Monk or Summoner (both weird and or wild) so too should probably be healer. I think SE needs to make sure some of the healers ask more from the player, perhaps very minimally give more too but not really required (people still play those wonky jobs even if they're not at the top of the list lol).Quote:
Originally Posted by Reaperking386
A new healer, or an existing one, should probably gain some more attack focus (without greatly imbalancing the end result damage), and other healers getting some more interesting healing mechanics so it's not just one button OGCD and everything is good lol.
A thought I had for Scholar's combat was utilizing their current attack mechanics but adding a new sort of pustule dance on top of it. Where your art of war would gain a concentric circle of smaller radius for additional damage and interaction with the pustule, broil and ruin as well, and each having a different effect that would cause your mental decision tree to branch based on the situation. The pustules coming from your dots naturally. That's the massive tl;dr, but basically you'd have a SCH now moving around the field while doing damage as they assess the situation and they would change their single target attack up from the standard when someone was ready to pop (such that if you were spamming Art of War you'd take a moment to do a single target, or the inverse if you were spamming one single target you'd consider another). Another concept was patent zero, allowing scholar to produce their shadow flare effect again (generates ground zero which adds QoL in spreading their disease and producing more pustules). Suddenly you've a bit more to do and think about without actually having to add any new buttons. Wrote a lot more detail about it over yonder: https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...=1#post5192759
Or in another thread had imagined a few new types of heal spells, on top of a job that has a bit of a combat focus. New heal like one that curses the boss preventing damage from going out to X potency, while adding some other effect, another heal that acts as an inverted shield (set up on an ally, then when damaged they have gray health which is cost efficient to restore for the job- meanwhile they would have another heal that didn't rely on that but wasn't as cost effective), on top of a heal spell that could work on both ally and enemy (allowing the healer to easily and quickly switch targets), new auras that worked on X nearby allies and had an active (meaning it was interactive and easily balanced), adding some new sort of gimmicks including ones like for restoring resources (like possession / connecting to an enemy and damaging them as your casting resource rather than your own mana while granting even greater cast range), and generally a visual theme that isn't incredibly common (was dark theme'd, engineer theme'd healer isn't crazy common either, at least compared to holy magic sort of stuff). Also yonder: https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/392280-Dark-Magic-Theme-d-Healer-Blood-Mind-Flayer-Eldritch-Necromancer-Etc
Anyway.. I think having a simple healer is good, like a simple tank or DD, allows for people who want to that to have it as an option, but definitely see how a number of healers could be wondering "isn't there anything else out there?" lol. SCH and AST have a bit of activity, although AST became quite a bit more straight forward, personally my brain wasn't prepared for SCH (no one died, and I still did damage, but way more yoyo than I had ever wanted) but from what I heard from SCH many loved the dance before so many moves were removed (of course some were returned later), but I did personally find WHM so easy that it was common to out DPS many other non-healers who weren't using their buttons right (and everyone was full health and it was all taken care of by oGCD stuff lol). Since I don't focus on healers I don't think I'm even close to the natural feeling main healers have though, so I can easily imagine being bored as you touch three to four buttons the whole dungeon (speaking the easy content of course, not ultimate lol). -
10-09-2020, 09:39 AMMorningstar1337You call Tanks having one more Job than Healers Balanced?Quote:
Originally Posted by Reaperking386
Also one can argue that the Light Party system requires there to be twice as many DPS as there are the other two so that makes sense to apply it to the Job design. But even with that in mind the scales are still tipped on the DPS side with 7 Non-DPS jobs to 10 DPS jobs (11 counting BLU)
Also why we need a new Healer class? I posit that it would give the devs a reason to look at Healer design and agrees the problems the communities sees in the role (or thinks there are the role), as they been very tight lipped on the topic, leading them to think that that is the only way to get fixes at all.
Furthermore there is the aforementioned element of parity. Tanks have 4 Jobs now and the most recent being in SHB, Healers have 3 with the most recent being from...Heavesnward, the very first xpac. So we're overdue for one anyway and the gap would obviously widen if the next few expansions doens't introduce Healers but adds more Tanks and DPS jobs. -
10-09-2020, 06:30 PMMsQi
Chemist as a healer will be throwing premade bottles on people to heal them with the only difference from other healers being the animations.
People remember these jobs from other games and think they'll be cool, but the aspects that make them cool would be drastically diminished in a "trinity" based, mechanical, non creative play style. -
10-09-2020, 07:32 PMAbsurdityI think people like to be optimistic about Chemist's design. Even within the restrictions of an mmo trinity system it could certainly be creative and engaging. The reality however is that they did the exact opposite with SCH and AST, turning their unique and interesting playstyles into mostly doing the exact same thing across all 3 healers.Quote:
Originally Posted by MsQi
So it depends entirely on whether you're an optimist or not and believe that with 6.0 SE will diversify healers again and make them all engaging and unique.
The people who have become jaded by Shadowbringers however look at the way healers have been going, combined with SE's refusal to talk about the complaints, and came to the conclusion that you seem to have come to.
The biggest problem is that SE is very tight-lipped about their design. If all previous expansions are anything to go by they won't change the current healer design until the next expansion. This means we'll have to wait until the job previews or even the launch of 6.0 to see whether or not the healer design will be any better. So if Chemist were to be the new healer it could be great, or it could be the same thing as the 3 healers we already have, by the time we know it's basically already too late. -
10-09-2020, 08:28 PMMsQiIt depends on what they actually do. Optimism nor pessimism will do nothing for that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Absurdity
As long as battle revolves almost completely around straight damage there is only so much they can do. The most creative things they can do are self contained to the Player character: me doing this allows me to do this. Not much interaction with others other than doing more or less. -
10-10-2020, 04:31 AMReksanden
I had an idea for how Chemist could work as a healer after trying WoW for a few months and talking with friends who also played - specifically by looking at the Discipline Priest. Basically they place a shield buff on a target, and while that's on them the DPS they do also heals said target. It doesn't last long, though, and as far as healing classes goes it's one of the highest skill requirements and ceilings.
The idea that came to mind for Chemist, thematically, would probably be Garlean-originated tech with a flying drone (I'll get to this) and a weapon similar to Ishgard's Auger bazookas, with the majority of their healing and attacking being instant but slightly weaker than the other healers to compensate.
The drone would function similar to AST's Synastry, except on either a single target or the whole party as needed, and would heal them for a % of the damage the CHM would do with particular attacks - more on that. They would also not be a "pet" like SCH's fairies and would stay by the CHM at all times. You could swap for free, with a short-ish cooldown so it couldn't be spammed too hard.
The idea I came up with for Mix was a bit more dodgy, but the last brainstorm had it working in reverse to current gauged jobs - you'd use it and it'd give you several stacks of a unique effect along with a numbered gauge for more general abilities - IE: It saves the Mix as spots similar to Aetherflow, except each saved spot is a different effect - regens, shields, damage, ect - and you'd have cooldowns that apply the Mixtures (or give them out without expending them or refilling them instantly, as a capstone). It'd need a long-ish cooldown, though - probably equal to Aetherflow.
(Gotta split this into two posts, didn't realize it'd be this long.) -
10-10-2020, 04:32 AMReksanden
(Cont'd)
For damage-to-healing, the idea is a rather simple one. You'd have a single target big-hit, and a linear AoE (to be further unique from the other healers) and the damage you do gets converted to healing for the drone-Linked targets. Obviously better on single target, since you'd be tanksitting with it most of the time. An interesting thought for a completely different regen is that they'd have ranged autos, and that heals the target as a pseudo-Regen - obviously weaker but technically lasting longer than WHM and AST's. Balance would be far trickier, of course, but basing it off of... WHM in comparison, the DPS abilities doing roughly 200~500 potency that you'd use every 15~30 seconds doesn't make it sound too bad especially since the idea is...
Supplementing that with the instant healing I mentioned at the start. One of the things that bothers me is the procs tied to some of the heals (WHM and AST) that merely empower their more powerful heal in some way - basically, barely rewarding and rarely used. Instead, either the damage-healing procs something to make the instant heals better, or vice versa, so it'd give a sense of a "rotation" even in the lack of having a proper one. They'd also be an obvious choice for DH, whether applying it themselves with Mix and probably slotting it in like so many WHMs do.
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TLDR Chemist could be neat as a healer that does damage to heal but has instant heals (probably potions) to supplement each other in a way that flows. I'd have suggested specific skills, but that's MUCH harder to do and prone to cheesiness.
I do love the potential idea of Meltdown being their DoT, though, with their DPS skills being based on FF6's magitech-armor lasers.