Thank you Yoshi for your stance on DPS meters

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

But they don't?

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It's not about do's or don'ts. They can.

The issue isn't about appropriately using the parser to help with actual issues that cause a wipe. It's about when someone misuse the parser information to call out someone specifically in a dungeon run where no one is dying and you're beating the enemies, etc. Obviously, when you know how fast a run can go, you can still call out people without actual parsing information, but that information is data that strengthens your argument, therefore, it facilitates your action in calling them out.

This is my own speculation (obviously), but given their official stance, it looks like (unless the problem is obvious without a parser, like someone keep failing mechanic) they would rather people call out the problem in general, and if the group can't do it, to disband, rather than pointing someone out specifically via parser information.

It's not ideal, but legitimate use being affected by illegitimate use is not surprising. And yes, people have to accept that not running optimally (aka mediocrity as another thread puts it) is acceptable means of playing the game in general from the devs' viewpoint as far as I can tell. People can of course choose to play with those who share their game play philosophy.

I'll just post what I've posted in another thread about parsing,

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Originally Posted by Angus-Beef

The tool is never at fault because it can only tell facts, what you do with those facts is the issue, People NEED to be willing to improve within FFs community, removing or adding a meter will change nothing so long as this remains the issue.

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I'll even elaborate further, due to the quote sounding a bit, harsh. In this game we have content that requires optimization, Ultimate, Savage, and even some EX fights require it, parsing and being able to see the numbers needed to kill the boss or get through X phase is helpful for people wanting to get through the fight over wiping a bunch of times to one dps or a bunch of dps not meeting a check, or a healer not meeting a heal check, or tanks not mitigating properly.

And while yes calling someone out is toxic, not knowing who exactly is under-performing will also lead to people equally being toxic and throwing around the blame over trying to figure out what to do better. This situation is a double edged sword, theres negative on both sides, there positives on both sides. But in the end we need to as a community learn how to help one another, parser or no parser, If you go into Eden 4 Savage Day 1 and have no Parser, then you need to know YOUR part, know YOUR rotation, know when to pop YOUR buffs. Until WE take responsibility as a community for OUR actions, and learn to play better, learn to be helpful, learn to NOT HARASS people, We will always have these issues.

In the end, I will end on this, Recount, Skada Damage Meter, Details, ACT, These are programs that only present FACTS, what you do with these FACTS, is the problem, not the program. We as a community need to learn how to NOT be harsh and mean to our fellow players.

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Originally Posted by EaMett

You don't need to go that far. Just parse all players and then at the end of a run give players their A-F grade in comparison to all historical runs of that content for their job. The player only sees their own score. If you get an F you can ask around and people will tell you you need better gear or maybe the gear is good but your rotation isn't etc.. Or you can decide not to do anything about it. Nobody needs to know.

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That would work also, especially with 4-player groups, since you'd be compared to all previous groups and not just the one you were in.
Something like this should also compare you only to others of the same job and +/- 10 item levels for accuracy though

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Originally Posted by QT_Melon

Yes, Yoshi P isn't stupid and KNOWS that for the raiding scene ACT is useful, but if you are in a culture where that kind of pressure is baked in you're going to be more sensitive to how toxic it is versus a culture that engages in more bickering but at the end of the day considers harassment minor - and don't go out of their way for the most part to get someone to kill themselves over performance of a game. Like I said earlier the Koike incident that came up in game was a harsh reminder for Yoshi P on how scary that conflict can get for JP. https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...arser/ddxxeua/

So do you release a copy of a JP game without an official parse?

I think people misinterpret me for being against parsing and getting better at performance due to how incredibly snarky/negative the replies have received. I'm actually not, but it's the way those replies are being made is why I SEE why we're never gonna get a parser.

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The Koike incident is entirely isolated where those same players also ventured over to twitter to sexually harass the streamer. Do you really think her DPS being displayed mattered? They clearly didn't care about the ToS or any rule violation because they went out of their way to harass this poor woman on several platforms. Parsers were simply one more tool in the arsenal no different than someone who already intends to rob a store and grabs whatever they can improvise into a weapon. If this is truly one of the reasons Yoshida doesn't want parsers, it's a rather shortsighted excuse—one that puts all the blame on a tool instead of the people who were already willing to break their rules. Furthermore, it makes him look like a massive hypocrite when he goes on to allow ACT to function in a "grey area". The tool is bad enough it needs to be banned because it caused harassment yet we'll allow players to use it silently?

For the record, I don't think this incident has much impact on his decision. It's more the general belief he and the dev team have regarding content. The stance they have seemingly taken is as long as you clear, even if it means bringing up the slack of others, it's entirely fine. Their solution has been instead of providing a tool for improvement, they continuously make the content easier. That's why EX Primals have laughably low enrages now where you can have 15 deaths and still clear. It's also why Savage has become increasingly watered down.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

The Koike incident is entirely isolated where those same players also ventured over to twitter to sexually harass the streamer. Do you really think her DPS being displayed mattered? They clearly didn't care about the ToS or any rule violation because they went out of their way to harass this poor woman on several platforms.


For the record, I don't think this incident has much impact on his decision. It's more the general belief he and the dev team have regarding content. The stance they have seemingly taken is as long as you clear, even if it means bringing up the slack of others, it's entirely fine. Their solution has been instead of providing a tool for improvement, they continuously make the content easier. That's why EX Primals have laughably low enrages now where you can have 15 deaths and still clear. It's also why Savage has become increasingly watered down.

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I think you very much missed the point about the culture of harassment. They didn't EVEN have a parser at that point. 2 Posts above you I also said this was just the most well documented case. This isn't the only case.

The general community in Japan does not waste time bickering or having an argument to begin with, they disband/shuffle the party and move on. They have a higher clear rate anyways.

The issue is that when the harassment occurs it's serious where the person is stalked people around them are also targeted to the point of getting address info and trying to get players to commit suicide.

There was a player recently banned from the game by SE, which had to withstand a long standing harassment issue and deal with this behavior. The start of it? He copied and pasted another person's text without crediting that person. The player long since apologized for it - but that wasn't enough. That player and anyone who came in contact with him was targeted with the type of harassment I mentioned above. The victim had long ago used a mod and that was continually brought up - because culturally the community highly frowns on the use of mods in any capacity (even cosmetic).

In game for a majority of content we have some ways to get around this. Savage being being a small amount of content we have the topic of Parsing via third party tool. Where he states what his culture does basically, be quiet about it. Disband and move on. Don't waste time bickering.

If he doesn't want to feel that a death or suicide was because of a GAME (due to how his culture is) I get it. I am not exactly happy about not having one in game but I get it. I get why after seeing non stop pages of "discussion" passive aggressive remarks, and outright insults that this is not going to happen and why it just cements it. I get why one incident just also further cemented their stance.

Does it suck that we do have to keep quiet about it, and not have an official one? Yeah it does (at least for us culturally) but at least we have a tool that gives us a start even if third party for Savage - but we still have to figure out the rest (ie clipping/weaving, optimal times for rotation, fight mechanics etc) but ACT isn't going to replace community/mentor advice.

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Originally Posted by QT_Melon

The general community in Japan does not waste time bickering or having an argument to begin with, they disband/shuffle the party and move on. They have a higher clear rate anyways.

The issue is that when the harassment occurs it's serious where the person is stalked people around them are also targeted to the point of getting address info and trying to get players to commit suicide.

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It seems to be a cultural thing in eastern Asia to be very polite, don't say anything negative, and if something negative happens move on from it quickly and try to not get bogged down by it. They don't like arguing, so if someone doesn't conform to what they think is an acceptable standard, they drop the person and get on with their lives. But there is a point in which that all goes out the window and a witch hunt starts.

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Originally Posted by QT_Melon

There was a player recently banned from the game by SE, which had to withstand a long standing harassment issue and deal with this behavior. The start of it? He copied and pasted another person's text without crediting that person. The player long since apologized for it - but that wasn't enough. That player and anyone who came in contact with him was targeted with the type of harassment I mentioned above. The victim had long ago used a mod and that was continually brought up - because culturally the community highly frowns on the use of mods in any capacity (even cosmetic).

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Harassment in games is a problem all over the world but how it manifests isn't the same everywhere due to culture. The above might seem crazy to us in the west but this kind of thing isn't entirely unusual in the far east. If you do something bad enough over there that provokes a public negative response, things can get really really ugly.

This isn't to say things are better in the west, because they're not. They are merely different. Very rarely does a witch hunt like the above begin with something so minor. I would even go as far as to say a witch hunt on that scale is very rare. While that is good, the flip side is when players in the west are unhappy they're often open about it instantly, and this results in seeing harassment issues significantly more often.

Basically in the west harassment happens more often, but it is generally little other than flinging some insults and it's over within the day if not the hour. In the east by comparison you rarely come across harassment but when you do it is sometimes merciless and can last for long periods of time.

It certainly is some food for thought.

We like to argue about parsers here, why we should have them, why we shouldn't, and a lot of people saying we should just suck it up and try to improve when someone tells us we're bad. When we argue about it we are thinking about our experiences as players in our own region within our own culture. We say "someone saying your dps is bad isn't such a horrible thing" and in the grand scheme of things it is not. However...

...when you look at how harassment sometimes manifests in Japan the argument surrounding parsers does change. Perhaps SE are concerned that having an official parser would result in some of the insane witch hunts in the JP servers we sometimes hear about.

In the west we would never think that it would be possible for someone to be publicly ostracised so much that anyone who is even in contact with them is given the same treatment. In Japan? We've seen it happen already and for something we would consider really minor. So it's not outside the realms of possibility that it could happen due to a dps issue as well. We all hate when players are not good at the game but I think everyone here would agree that simply being unskilled or lazy doesn't warrant a witch hunt. In Japan? Well...that might be a different story.

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Originally Posted by QT_Melon

Does it suck that we do have to keep quiet about it, and not have an official one? Yeah it does

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It does. I really would love to see some manner of parser come to the game. A personal one at least that shows the player only how they performed, and grade it so they have some idea as to whether it is good or not. Parsers are incredibly useful tools but the community in any region can't be trusted to give and take criticism sensibly and that is why we don't have one.

Parsers don't cause toxicity. You know what does? Having 2 dps doing 15k while the other two are struggling to break 8k and causing the party to fail the same dps check over and over. At the end of the day, it's a simple matter of subtraction. Boss has X hp, you need to take away Y amount by Z time or you fail.

But to avoid hurt feelings we can't ask the nin why he isn't using TA at all, or the dnc why he hasn't had a dance partner for the last 2 attempts. Instead we have to just kick that person so they never get any better and come whine about elitist groups kicking them for no reason.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

It seems to be a cultural thing in eastern Asia to be very polite, don't say anything negative, and if something negative happens move on from it quickly and try to not get bogged down by it. They don't like arguing, so if someone doesn't conform to what they think is an acceptable standard, they drop the person and get on with their lives. But there is a point in which that all goes out the window and a witch hunt starts.

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When playing on Chocobo they always seemed as kick-happy as any NA server, just sometimes with even less said.

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Originally Posted by Angus-Beef

In the end, I will end on this, Recount, Skada Damage Meter, Details, ACT, These are programs that only present FACTS, what you do with these FACTS, is the problem, not the program. We as a community need to learn how to NOT be harsh and mean to our fellow players.

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On the flipside if you're in the content where these facts matter (savage, ultimate and some new ex's) don't be surprised if people see you slacking and ask for you to improve.

Respect other people's time.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

When playing on Chocobo they always seemed as kick-happy as any NA server, just sometimes with even less said.

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My apologies I didn't make it clear I was speaking very generally about people in that particular section, and not specifically about the JP servers. I have some friends who lived in Japan for a while who told me about how people act there, and I am personally interested in eastern Asian media so I am familiar with what their audiences consider to be acceptable or unacceptable, and how they act with either reaction. A lot of what we consider to be very minor in the west (like a pop star dating someone, or accidentally saying profanity) can seriously damage your career in eastern Asia. My impression is that as long as people conform and do their best to not offend anyone, everything is very calm, but when someone does a mishap that could be interpreted as disrespect it can snowball very fast.

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Originally Posted by linay

It's not about do's or don'ts. They can.

The issue isn't about appropriately using the parser to help with actual issues that cause a wipe. It's about when someone misuse the parser information to call out someone specifically in a dungeon run where no one is dying and you're beating the enemies, etc. Obviously, when you know how fast a run can go, you can still call out people without actual parsing information, but that information is data that strengthens your argument, therefore, it facilitates your action in calling them out.

This is my own speculation (obviously), but given their official stance, it looks like (unless the problem is obvious without a parser, like someone keep failing mechanic) they would rather people call out the problem in general, and if the group can't do it, to disband, rather than pointing someone out specifically via parser information.

It's not ideal, but legitimate use being affected by illegitimate use is not surprising. And yes, people have to accept that not running optimally (aka mediocrity as another thread puts it) is acceptable means of playing the game in general from the devs' viewpoint as far as I can tell. People can of course choose to play with those who share their game play philosophy.

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There is literally no negative behavior parsers uniquely generate apart from the same incredibly minor strand of reductionism or 'tunnel-vision' that comes with all convenient information (e.g. people thinking that the only definition of anything is whatever's the first boxed off result on google for <word + "meaning">).

There are however, several positive behaviors they generate, some of which directly reduce conflicts and other instances likely to turn into toxicity.

Let's be clear here, expecting someone to be capable of meeting the basic requirement of a given range of content is not toxic. It is not exclusionary. It's neutral.

But, obscuring performance does not make content any more inclusive; you effect only the opposite. Once players are forced to deal with a wider range of completion chances and/or times (e.g. a higher chance that a given group will be unable to complete the content because the players are unable to play the parts they tacitly said they could), they use every tangential means they can to buy back their old chances: even to begin prog, you'd likely see absurd ilvl requirements, requirements for linked achievements from previous tiers, and so forth.

Literally nothing has changed regarding the use of parsers outside of them coming down on very specific triggers regarding automatic marker placement. I knew as soon as Yoshida brought up the topic of parsers someone was going to take it out of context. You aren't going to get banned unless you're using it as tool for harassment, It's the same It's ever been.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

On the flipside if you're in the content where these facts matter (savage, ultimate and some new ex's) don't be surprised if people see you slacking and ask for you to improve.

Respect other people's time.

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Yes, ofc, that falls in with the whole aspect of knowing your part when you fo the fights and not holding the group back.

Thank you Yoshi for validating and protecting my feelings on DPS meters.
FTFY

Slippery slope fallacy aside, yoshi's view on dps meters being inherently toxic or being the direct cause of toxicity is a failed logical argument. A sad day to hear those words come from him, really. Were it me I'd rather be called out and told what my problem is rather than being silently kicked. And let me tell you, being silently kicked is a far worse feeling, because then you're left scrambling for isolated reasoning.

So, fine. Throw away the parsers, yeah ? But when you get removed from a group without reason, don't complain. I guess you'll have to figure out your problem.

But a lot of you don't realize that Yoshi's stance causes an issue. Savage raiding is not meant to be casual, just as ultimates are not meant to be savage. It is a tier which requires becoming better than what casual content requires. Parsing helps this divide for the average raider. Parsing is almost nearly required for the ultimate raider. One cannot improve or optimize if they can't see where or how to do so. As such, parsing is a tool that helps us better understand if the ability to clear is there or not and how to address it.

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Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

What exactly is so good about blocking off resources and not giving us an alternative?
It's just like blocking chat in Feast. The communication and planning with pugs is gone, and it's made the mode worse than the occasional asshole cursing in chat.

All blocking ACT would do is deny players who want the chance to improve. Sure, there may be a few assholes using parse numbers to be toxic, but the vast majority only care what their personal numbers are. And if you're failing a DPS check over and over again, wouldn't you want to correct the issue? I don't get how Yoshi can sit there and talk down on ACT and not give us anything else to guage our DPS (SSS is overtuned and horrible).

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Par for the course, though, no?

Year 2000:

Those who refuse to communicate with their teams in situations that can wildly vary beyond tacitly understood play are generally being irresponsible, selfish, and/or disrespectful.

Year 2019:

Anyone who insists that players be ready to communicate insofar as is beneficial to team performance must actually just be predatory bullies. Deafening yourself or leaving team chat, therefore, is not at all an irresponsible, selfish, or disrespectful fix for any criticisms you might receive alongside useful communications. Feel free never to speak to your team, nor to allow them to speak to you.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

My apologies I didn't make it clear I was speaking very generally about people in that particular section, and not specifically about the JP servers. I have some friends who lived in Japan for a while who told me about how people act there, and I am personally interested in eastern Asian media so I am familiar with what their audiences consider to be acceptable or unacceptable, and how they act with either reaction. A lot of what we consider to be very minor in the west (like a pop star dating someone, or accidentally saying profanity) can seriously damage your career in eastern Asia. My impression is that as long as people conform and do their best to not offend anyone, everything is very calm, but when someone does a mishap that could be interpreted as disrespect it can snowball very fast.

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Although there's still more factors to it - "The nail that sticks up, gets hammered down" is still a phrase used in the negative aspect of Japanese conformity. Bullying was at a record high (though it may actually be due to the fact they're finally getting people to report it).

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Originally Posted by QT_Melon

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I've heard of the incident you're referring to. Perhaps they should, you know, do something about the harassment itself instead of pretending it doesn't occur. If anything, that incident proves my point that parsers aren't inherently toxic. That comes down to individual people. And those players did several things that SE looked the other way on. In fact, they wound up banning him through a supposed doctored screenshot. So the harassers actually won in the end, though Dingo was not entirely innocent either.

It should also be noted JP as a whole doesn't necessary view mods negatively. 5ch simply used any little thing they could find to harass the guy. Him posting lewd screenshots made it easier for them to try getting him banned—which they ultimately succeeded in doing.

Regardless, barring a mis-translation, Yoshida outright said calling people out on low DPS is harassment. That is objectively wrong, though he is, of course, entitled to have such an opinion. So it isn't simply this culture of harassment but the idea that calling players out, no matter how polite, is harassment in and of itself.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

I've heard of the incident you're referring to. Perhaps they should, you know, do something about the harassment itself instead of pretending it doesn't occur. If anything, that incident proves my point that parsers aren't inherently toxic. That comes down to individual people. And those players did several things that SE looked the other way on. In fact, they wound up banning him through a supposed doctored screenshot. So the harassers actually won in the end, though Dingo was not entirely innocent either.

It should also be noted JP as a whole doesn't necessary view mods negatively. 5ch simply used any little thing they could find to harass the guy. Him posting lewd screenshots made it easier for them to try getting him banned—which they ultimately succeeded in doing.

Regardless, barring a mis-translation, Yoshida outright said calling people out on low DPS is harassment. That is objectively wrong, though he is, of course, entitled to have such an opinion. So it isn't simply this culture of harassment but the idea that calling players out, no matter how polite, is harassment in and of itself.

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The harassment wasn't in game detectable. The whole point of the board was to do it off the game so they couldn't be linked to actual players. That's mostly what they do and most do not report it due to culture in not wanting shame.

Banning the victim was wrong imo, but we don't have the evidence the GMs received and what they were privy to judge and act on.

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...ter_months_of/

Calling out players in general for not performing is considered harassment - that's why there was so many changes with healers and tanks. :P

Basically the mindset (culture) is different - to expect a JP company (leader since there there are divisions internationally) to instantly change to a US/foreign one isn't going to happen right away.

Without parsers we never had any means to figure out best rotations and statweights/BiS sets. Just sayin. :v

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Originally Posted by DynnDiablos

I dare someone to say anything about my DPS. I will have them in GM jail so fast their head will spin.

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What if your DPS is so bad that you are a detriment to the group? What if they are letting you know how bad your DPS is and they are trying to give you some feedback on how to do better? You gonna report them anyway for trying to help you? If thats the case, I suppose it would be better to just kick you from the group without telling you why. FF14 IS a multiplayer game, you performance in a group does affect other players in the group. If your personal DPS is low enough, it contributes to a group not clearing a fight or fights being agonizingly slow. I personally don't look forward to spending an extra 10 minutes in a dungeon because someone can't do a proper basic rotation. I certainly don't want to run a dungeon with the free-styling samurai or the ice mage.

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Originally Posted by AmeliaVerves

Without parsers we never had any means to figure out best rotations and statweights/BiS sets. Just sayin. :v

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Want to add, the changes to the potency of each jobs. We wont know how big of an impact if it wasn't one.

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Originally Posted by DynnDiablos

I dare someone to say anything about my DPS. I will have them in GM jail so fast their head will spin.

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I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but for anything other than blatantly mentioning third party, or excessive swearing, the GM's won't come and babysit you. They aren't your personal guardians and Yoshi hasn't set any stance dealing with overall toxicity ingame. Just third party and dps specifically.

"lol learn to play RDM before queuing plz" - won't get someone a ban for example.
"why do RDM's always suck so much?" - nope, probably won't get a ban.
"wth RDM, a rez sometime this year would be nice?" - probably won't get a ban.
"Hey Sylvi, just glancing at my meter and noticed your dps could be higher, pm me after this run if you'd like some tips :)" will get them the ban immediately.

Enjoy.

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Originally Posted by Thamorian

What if your DPS is so bad that you are a detriment to the group? What if they are letting you know how bad your DPS is and they are trying to give you some feedback on how to do better? You gonna report them anyway for trying to help you? If thats the case, I suppose it would be better to just kick you from the group without telling you why. FF14 IS a multiplayer game, you performance in a group does affect other players in the group. If your personal DPS is low enough, it contributes to a group not clearing a fight or fights being agonizingly slow. I personally don't look forward to spending an extra 10 minutes in a dungeon because someone can't do a proper basic rotation. I certainly don't want to run a dungeon with the free-styling samurai or the ice mage.

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Sure you can say something but make sure you deliver it with the appropriate tone and context.

The moment dps numbers come into the picture/message thats where you are going to possibly get reported.

Gotta play nice.

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Originally Posted by MsMisato

Sure you can say something but make sure you deliver it with the appropriate tone and context.

The moment dps numbers come into the picture/message thats where you are going to possibly get reported.

Gotta play nice.

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Player A: Hey your DPS is pretty low. Try...
Player B: Don't tell me how to play. How do you even know what my DPS is?
Player A: ...

Yeah it sucks as and being polite is what I meant as in my previous post. But just saying "Hey your DPS is pretty low, try [rotation]" will be considered rude by a few to many low-effort players. It is great though when a player takes your advice and starts performing better. With casters you can say you been watching their rotation but for non-casters, can't really claim that.

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but for anything other than blatantly mentioning third party, or excessive swearing, the GM's won't come and babysit you. They aren't your personal guardians and Yoshi hasn't set any stance dealing with overall toxicity ingame. Just third party and dps specifically.

"lol learn to play RDM before queuing plz" - won't get someone a ban for example.
"why do RDM's always suck so much?" - nope, probably won't get a ban.
"wth RDM, a rez sometime this year would be nice?" - probably won't get a ban.
"Hey Sylvi, just glancing at my meter and noticed your dps could be higher, pm me after this run if you'd like some tips :)" will get them the ban immediately.

Enjoy.

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And this is what really sucks, is that even if you are polite about it, you could still end up getting suspended/banned for point out someone DPS using a DPS meter, depending on the GM reviewing the complaint. People shouldn't be rude to others with low DPS. If someone is gonna be rude, they are better off just kicking the low DPS under reason "difference of playstyle" or leaving themself, which I will say both are equally valid because you shouldn't reward low-effort players by carrying them (person is not considered rude until they say something rude in chat). And to be clear, there is a difference between someone who looks like they are trying and just doesn't know their rotation, in which case they might listen to and accept advice, and someone who isn't trying by not trying to do their rotation at all or only pressing a button once every 15 seconds.

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Originally Posted by DynnDiablos

I dare someone to say anything about my DPS. I will have them in GM jail so fast their head will spin.

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Most veteran players can tell when your DPS sucks without a meter. It's things like are you using positionals? Keeping dots up? Keeping your buffs up? Using oGCDs? Doing your ABCs? Actually using DPS spells? Not spamming one skill over and over and over? Slide Casting when necessary? etc.

It's not that hard to make sound judgement calls in this game if you got enough experience simply because unfortunately people who phone it in are so prevalent at times that it isnt hard to spot.

In this game at least, the extremely few times I've seen anyone using a parser and admitting it (usually through the posting of names and numbers) I haven't seen anyone acting toxic toward another player. In other MMOs like WoW, however, it is used to shame others or to "show off" those sweet numbers in a leveling dungeon (lol). Different games, different pacing, different communities. Neither communities are perfect and are capable of the same things, but I see less toxicity in general in FF XIV. Either way, it is good that SE has drawn a hard line against 3rd party tools like this. In the right hands they are invaluable. But it's the internet, and the possibility of them falling into the wrong hands is relatively high.

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Originally Posted by DynnDiablos

I dare someone to say anything about my DPS. I will have them in GM jail so fast their head will spin.

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GMs will only take action if harassment (insults, stalking, etc) takes place or if third party tools are mentioned. If someone simply says "your dps needs to be better" they're not going to jail.

Sorry to break it to you, but you're not untouchable.

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Originally Posted by DynnDiablos

What I am saying is it is no one's business to comment on how I play or to judge me based on their little program they are running.

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Hmmm...

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Originally Posted by DynnDiablos

I dare someone to say anything about my DPS. I will have them in GM jail so fast their head will spin.

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No, that's not saying "don't judge me with an add-on". That's saying "if you say something I don't like I will report you"

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Originally Posted by DynnDiablos

I've never had complaints. I know my rotations. My DPS is fine. Thanks but no thanks, keep your comments to yourself. Last time I checked, I pay for sub, not anyone else. They have absolutely no right to say a thing to me, if they do, and I PERCEIVE it as harassment, I will happily make that case.

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It's honestly people like you that need ACT the most, I feel.
You honestly have no idea if you are doing well or not.

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Originally Posted by DynnDiablos

That has never been an issue with me. I main DNC, I am full augmented, I know my rotation, I usually blast my fellow DPS out of the water. What I am saying is it is no one's business to comment on how I play or to judge me based on their little program they are running.

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Originally Posted by DynnDiablos

I've never had complaints. I know my rotations. My DPS is fine. Thanks but no thanks, keep your comments to yourself. Last time I checked, I pay for sub, not anyone else. They have absolutely no right to say a thing to me, if they do, and I PERCEIVE it as harassment, I will happily make that case.

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Depending on the content people have every right to say "hey, could you do x instead of y?" or "your rotation could use a little work", especially if it is holding the rest of the group back. And they don't need a mod or addon to tell if someone is...lacking. But there is obviously a right way and a wrong way to tell someone that they could improve.

If you are to be believed, however, then you fit the description of every person ever who has said "you don't pay my sub" (basically because you actually said it), which would technically be correct, but doesn't hold much water when playing an MMO in content that is reliant on everyone being on the same page. If you know your stuff, good for you. But not everyone is perfect, and that also includes you. Even you will make mistakes every now and then, and sometimes that may lead to criticism.

As long as it is constructive and civil I don't see any harm in it. Someone offering advice isn't always harassment.

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Originally Posted by DynnDiablos

My goodness I seem to have triggered some people here, which was never my intention. I am basically just saying people should mind their own business. If you want to utilize an outside program for yourself...great. Go for it, but don't try to police and our improve other players who aren't looking for it.

Honestly, if you want to control every aspect of damage and clear things super fast and to your liking, form a party yourself. When it comes to DF you get what you get. Some will be receptive, others won't be. I, for one, don't want people commenting on my play style, but that is not me saying I stand there like a lump and don't know my mechanics or rotations or go into things under-geared. I know my shiz. While some people may genuinely want to help, the fact of the matter is you are utilizing an add-on not available to all, and one SE doesn't plan to implement. Therefore, at the end of the day, keep it to yourself.

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How about instead you respect peoples time, and put in as much effort as other people? I really don't think expecting people to cooperate in an online game is too much to ask.

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Originally Posted by DynnDiablos

Endless bullshit

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I am so glad I don't share a data center with you.

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Originally Posted by DynnDiablos

My goodness I seem to have triggered some people here, which was never my intention. I am basically just saying people should mind their own business. If you want to utilize an outside program for yourself...great. Go for it, but don't try to police and our improve other players who aren't looking for it.

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It is because you came off as very uppity with your "if you dare say something about my dps you're going to GM jail" attitude. It came across as if you thought you were immune to any form of criticism because you think GMs will act upon any comment you report.

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Originally Posted by DynnDiablos

I, for one, don't want people commenting on my play style

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Then why are you playing a multiplayer game?

And before you bring up parsers again, you don't always need a parser to see if someone is bad or good at the game. There are many signs of a player's ability that can be seen from the game alone. The party ui makes it easy to see if someone is using their cds. Spell animations denote what abilities are being used. And someone dying all the time or dodging like a champion is obvious on its own.

People are going to comment sometimes whether you like it or not, and they have a right to comment on anything they wish. If you don't want to see it I suggest turning off party chat or avoid multiplayer games altogether.

Jobs like DNC and AST put emphasis on being able to gauge who in your group is performing well so it's frustrating not being able to see some way to measure that, even if it's incredibly vague.

For jobs like that I don't need to know we had someone grey parsing or whatever, I just want to know who the top 2 DPS were in my allied raid's party - just their names, don't even need numbers.

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Originally Posted by Hash_Browns

How about instead you respect peoples time, and put in as much effort as other people? I really don't think expecting people to cooperate in an online game is too much to ask.

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Did you even read the post you rant about? Dynn said -- and I put it in bold so that even you can read and understand it -- "but that is not me saying I stand there like a lump and don't know my mechanics or rotations or go into things under-geared."
That means in very easy terms: They are cooperating and putting "effort" in the video game. Maybe not as much as you or other min/maxers would like but it's effort to get "shit" done nontheless. You don't know what kind of cotenent, maybe they don't play "harder" contents and their current effort's more than enough.

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Originally Posted by Mahoukenshi

Did you even read the post you rant about? Dynn said -- and I put it in bold so that even you can read and understand it -- "but that is not me saying I stand there like a lump and don't know my mechanics or rotations or go into things under-geared."
That means in very easy terms: They are cooperating and putting "effort" in the video game. Maybe not as much as you or other min/maxers would like but it's effort to get "shit" done nontheless. You don't know what kind of cotenent, maybe they don't play "harder" contents and their current effort's more than enough.

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Just want to put this here:

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but don't try to police and our improve other players who aren't looking for it.

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I actually know the numbers they put in, because I looked them up. They've been using the fact that they know how to play so well as one of their points for an entire thread page.

Key tip from me is that if you want to brag about how you have your rotation down, and don't need to improve because you know you're doing well - hide your logs, even if you don't use ACT, someone else will eventually upload your logs, it's almost inevitable. It's how I know they don't know their rotation. It's how I know the posts are a bunch of hot air.

"Effort" implies you are willing to improve, willing to take criticism, and not shutting out everyone else because "you know better."

My main point was that they were the type of person that needed act the most, because they didn't know how well/poor they were doing, even if they thought they had their rotation down, and such. I stand by that point.

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Originally Posted by Hash_Browns

It's how I know the posts are a bunch of hot air.

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I found that typically players who are confident in their performance let it speak for itself and aren't allergic to the idea of someone commenting about it.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

I found that typically players who are confident in their performance let it speak for itself and aren't allergic to the idea of someone commenting about it.

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Everyone has ways they can improve, nobody is perfect. I've found the best players are those who recognize this fact and seek to improve.

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Originally Posted by Urthdigger

Everyone has ways they can improve, nobody is perfect. I've found the best players are those who recognize this fact and seek to improve.

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I completely agree. I was just saying that in my experience those who know for sure that they are good don't feel the need to brag about it. Just because you know you're good doesn't mean you think you have peaked.

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Originally Posted by DynnDiablos

You're disgusting. How dare you try to publicly shame me here. Pull my numbers, whatever. However, I have NEVER had anyone kick me from a group or say I am not contributing.

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https://media.giphy.com/media/RHiD0K65NxxLO/giphy.gif

I knew this was coming, I was waiting for it! People ironically get "harassed" for hiding their logs too, by the way!