Labyrinth and Syrcus Tower...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RyuSaarva

just remove the roulette entirely, .

---

Or you could just not do the roulette?

In any event I don’t think this is as bad as people make it out to be, I got Dun Scaith 3 times last week

Quote:

---

Oh I remember, I still have flashbacks to all the screaming people did back in 2.0 in a vain attempt to get people to do the mechanics lol. It isn't that they weren't tuned for when they released, it's that I don't think they were tuned with the current power creep the game has in mind. The last time I had to do Glasya's platforms was back in the mid-patch release for HW - and Scylla's daybreak hasn't done more than tickled since then either. By comparison the HW's raids have aged a lot more gracefully. They're a lot easier now but it doesn't feel like you're skipping 90% of the fight. I'm just not sure /why/ that is though. If it's a tuning issue or just a back door coding issue.

---

It is a tuning issue. We outgear the ARR raids by far more proportionally at i130 than we do for the HW raids at i270 or the SB raids at i400.

Quote:

---

A smooth run doesn't take an hour, probably around 20m or so.

---

Not even my smoothest runs of Orbonne (which were all back before SB2, incidentally) were anywhere near that fast.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SummonerSenah

I just think it's funny that it's become a vicious cycle. People don't do Orbonne because other people haven't learned the mechanics; but people aren't learning the mechanics because they aren't getting the chance to run it because people cheese the system to avoid Orbonne. If more people took what they got with Alliance Raid Roulette (including Orbonne) and, instead of dropping, taught people mechanics, then those players can teach people, and those people can teach others, and so on and so forth.

That being said, I do think there should be more of a reward for people willing to do that. You should get more XP/tomes for completing the level 70 raids than you get for the level 50/60 raids. You should get less XP for the level 60 raids than you do 70, but more than 50. And level 50 raids should give the least xp/tome rewards. People will still cheese it if the time vs reward is not worth it to them, but you would probably get at least some people more willing to give Orbonne a chance if it meant more xp/tomes.

---

I think your post nailed it :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Thoosa

I don’t mind getting these at all because they’re fast.

Orbonne is about an hour if everything is smooth and that’s not guaranteed and then it is very painful :)

---

I hate getting these because they're boring.

I'd rather spend 60 minutes having fun in content I can't sleep through than 20 minutes wishing braindead content was over; bored out of my mind. That makes 20 minutes seem like 2 hours if you ask me. I just think some players out there are just scared to take an ass-whoopin'. Orbonne is seriously an awesome raid. It is the most well designed 24-man to date without question, and some of the best content overall.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ursa_Vonfiebryd

If you are naked when you que in, you will be targeted by my macro and the whole Alliance will know what you did.

---

You can reclothe immediately after queueing for the roulette, though.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SerLuke

In any event I don’t think this is as bad as people make it out to be, I got Dun Scaith 3 times last week

---

Speak for yourself. I have done Alliance Roulette fairly regularly and can count the times I've gotten Weeping City and Dun Scaith using one hand. At least in the last month or so. I think I've seen Rabanastre and Riodana five times combined since ShB launched, and Orbonne only once. Ironically, we cleared Orbonne with only 20 people despite nearly half having never done it before.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gemina

I hate getting these because they're boring.

I'd rather spend 60 minutes having fun in content I can't sleep through than 20 minutes wishing braindead content was over; bored out of my mind. That makes 20 minutes seem like 2 hours if you ask me. I just think some players out there are just scared to take an ass-whoopin'. Orbonne is seriously an awesome raid. It is the most well designed 24-man to date without question, and some of the best content overall.

---

When the highlight of your run is all three Alliances wiping to Ancient Fire only for the boss to also die at the exact same time. That goes to show how boring the actual raid is.

I don't do Alliance Raid Rolettes anymore for that reason, bot to mention that even 6 years later people must wipe at least once in LoA last boss. Leveling Rolette is another one that i don't do anymore, 90% of time i get "The Thousand Maws of Toto-Rak" Dungeon, 9% of time "The Tam-Tara Deepcroft" and 1% of time some random stuff.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

Speak for yourself.

---

I was, you alright dude?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DenzelVilliers

I don't do Alliance Raid Rolettes anymore for that reason, bot to mention that even 6 years later people must wipe at least once in LoA last boss. Leveling Rolette is another one that i don't do anymore, 90% of time i get "The Thousand Maws of Toto-Rak" Dungeon, 9% of time "The Tam-Tara Deepcroft" and 1% of time some random stuff.

---

...your's is broken there should be 77% sastasha.

I just had 7x tower and 1 Wod, while i need the Lota for khloe... like haha rly funny. But I just cant bear them anymore... even VA is more fun. And i cant believe im using VA and fun in one sentence...

The truth is that it's not the players fault the system is so broken.
If both duties give the same exp at the end, why wouldn't players who view the roulettes as a chance at free exp take the shortest path?

It really should be set up in a way that higher level duties give more EXP. It's the only solution to stop people from undergearing themselves.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hash_Browns

It really should be set up in a way that higher level duties give more EXP. It's the only solution to stop people from undergearing themselves.

---

Exactly... then people wouldn't mind getting the higher level ones. Seems like an easy enough fix to me. They've demonstrated that with Praetorium (something no one would run with unskippable cutscenes ;) ) yet oddly enough now that's all people want.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LaylaTsarra

Exactly... then people wouldn't mind getting the higher level ones. Seems like an easy enough fix to me. They've demonstrated that with Praetorium (something no one would run with unskippable cutscenes ;) ) yet oddly enough now that's all people want.

---

Hey I'm in that boat.
I'll take 20million EXP over 8million EXP any day of the week.

This whole thread is coming about because of "I don't want X"

Well people dropping ilevel (before anyone jumps in, no I don't, but I also don't mind what I get in Alliance) don't want Y. If they get Y, then people say they just leave. What's going to happen when the game makes them get Y? They'll just stop running the roulette unless they are given a reason to run it. The reason people drop Castrum like a hot potato is because it has shit experience compared to Prae. If you're running just for tomes, it's great cause it's quick. But if you're leveling an alt class are many are with MSQ, then Prae gives you a massive amount more xp.

Do the same with these. Higher level means higher rewards. For one, it's a much easier thing to code. And two, it gives people a reason not to bail. Plus if someone does want to drop ilevel because they're trying to get a certain glam or just want an easy run that night, then they can still do that and keep the roulette going rather than abandoning it because they're forced into something that isn't worth it for them. Incentives are always going to be much more well received than punishments.

I burned out on Syrcus Tower farming moogle tomes before ShB launched. I've stopped bothering with the roulette because that's all I get now.

Also because I still can't hand in Orbonne gear for GC seals. I've got a bag full of that crap.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

I burned out on Syrcus Tower farming moogle tomes.

---

There is another Moogle Ques/Event due soon from what I understand.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LaylaTsarra

There is another Moogle Ques/Event due soon from what I understand.

---

http://66.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m4...1o1_r1_500.png

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

This whole thread is coming about because of "I don't want X"

Well people dropping ilevel (before anyone jumps in, no I don't, but I also don't mind what I get in Alliance) don't want Y. If they get Y, then people say they just leave. What's going to happen when the game makes them get Y? They'll just stop running the roulette unless they are given a reason to run it. The reason people drop Castrum like a hot potato is because it has shit experience compared to Prae. If you're running just for tomes, it's great cause it's quick. But if you're leveling an alt class are many are with MSQ, then Prae gives you a massive amount more xp.

Do the same with these. Higher level means higher rewards. For one, it's a much easier thing to code. And two, it gives people a reason not to bail. Plus if someone does want to drop ilevel because they're trying to get a certain glam or just want an easy run that night, then they can still do that and keep the roulette going rather than abandoning it because they're forced into something that isn't worth it for them. Incentives are always going to be much more well received than punishments.

---

Except it doesn't quite work that way. Alliance Roulette still gives a boatload of experience that only Orbonne poses any risk to efficiency. Dun Scaith, Rabanastre and Riodana are all so easy now, it's laughable. You outright skip adds in Hashmel, that's how ridiculous our damage is. Very few people who run Alliance Roulette consistently will stop because thet might get those raids more often, especially when the odds of getting Orbonne would remain low. Furthermore, there are plenty of people who outright stopped queuing because they're tired of LotA and Syrcus Tower. I'll be among those people. I used to spam Alliance even when my jobs were 80 with for tomes or because I liked a lot of the 24 mans. Unless something changes, once I'm done leveling my remaining I'll never touch it again.

If they can give different exp for Castrum and Praetorium, I don't see the reason the same can't be done for the different 24-man instances. When I get a HW 24 Man my eyes light up with joy because I'm so sick of ST and LOTA. Hell I'd even like to do World of Darkness once in a while but nope. Nothing feels worse than being locked to your ARR kit for literally anything.

I only started unlocking alliance raids when ShE arrived, since I wanted to know the Crystal Tower story. I had always thought that raids would be too confusing/difficult for me and I didn't want to screw my group. After being a bit more familiar with the Crystal Tower series, I unlocked Void Ark, which i haven't seen yet. I also unlocked and yes, roulette put me in Rabanastre (which I enjoyed a lot) and Ridorana (which I found more confusing, I died at some point there, but I still liked it). So I unlocked Orborne and after reading these threads I am actually scared of getting it...seem that people will either abandon at start of abandon because of wipes at the last boss... And it would be my first time there, so yeah, I am a bit terrified of highly contributing to group failure... but at the same time, I would love to see the conclusion to that story arc. We'll see how this all ends for me, lol.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Oichi

I only started unlocking alliance raids when ShE arrived, since I wanted to know the Crystal Tower story. I had always thought that raids would be too confusing/difficult for me and I didn't want to screw my group. After being a bit more familiar with the Crystal Tower series, I unlocked Void Ark, which i haven't seen yet. I also unlocked and yes, roulette put me in Rabanastre (which I enjoyed a lot) and Ridorana (which I found more confusing, I died at some point there, but I still liked it). So I unlocked Orborne and after reading these threads I am actually scared of getting it...seem that people will either abandon at start of abandon because of wipes at the last boss... And it would be my first time there, so yeah, I am a bit terrified of highly contributing to group failure... but at the same time, I would love to see the conclusion to that story arc. We'll see how this all ends for me, lol.

---

Orbonne really isn't that bad. It just requires a good bit of situational awareness, plus a few new mechanics. The only one that really gives people a lot of trouble is the next to last boss who basically serves as a gatekeeper. But even that one isn't too hard for the most part. None of it is that complicated though. People can just make it that way.

Not everyone using the roulettes has that job geared. When I'm leveling my other jobs I use what ever gear is cheapest

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by hynaku

Not everyone using the roulettes has that job geared. When I'm leveling my other jobs I use what ever gear is cheapest

---

Poetics literally fall from the sky, do anything and you have them capped, not an excuse.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Samsta

Poetics literally fall from the sky, do anything and you have them capped, not an excuse.

---

Why should ones buy gear for a class that once you get it to max level you never use it again. Nice try but no cigar. You go ahead and store all that high level gear I'm sure not. There is no gear requirement for heaven on high and when i'm not running roulettes i'm in there. I only craft good gear on job that play often not one that never use again. How about they just make level 50 alliance raid roulette, level 60 alliance roulette, level 70 alliance roulette, and level 80 alliance roulette that fix the problem.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by hynaku

Why should ones buy gear for a class that once you get it to max level you never use it again. Nice try but no cigar. You go ahead and store all that high level gear I'm sure not. There is no gear requirement for heaven on high and when i'm not running roulettes i'm in there. I only craft good gear on job that play often not one that never use again. How about they just make level 50 alliance raid roulette, level 60 alliance roulette, level 70 alliance roulette, and level 80 alliance roulette that fix the problem.

---

Because you don't really have anything other to use poetics for? That's pretty much the only use for them at this point.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by hynaku

Not everyone using the roulettes has that job geared. When I'm leveling my other jobs I use what ever gear is cheapest

---

The NQ gear from the NPC vendors is usually good enough to queue into all 3 of the level appropriate 24 man raids. You can buy lvl 50 / ilvl 115 gear in Ishgard wich is good enough to join World of Darkness, lvl 60 / ilvl 255 gear is in Ishagrd available as well and in Kugane you can buy lvl 70 / ilvl 385 gear.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Samsta

Because you don't really have anything other to use poetics for? That's pretty much the only use for them at this point.

---

You can buy grade 3 topsoil with it ^^/

It partly coems down to a player skill issue.Hence why people gear switch to get the lvl 50 dungeons.
Most players still cant do the frist boss in dun scaith for example.I constantly see people failing second boss mechanics in weeping city.
And somehow people still eat every mechanic on thundergod cid despite being arguably the easiest boss in orbonne.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vidu

Yeah or they need to adjust the system so that you simply cant queue for the roulette if you dont meet the ilvl requirement for all duties of your level...

---

I think this is the ideal solution, I hope it can be done

I am tired too. Every single day the same over and over. Sometimes I get Ridorana or any Ivalice alliance and people immediately leave. What it worst, you just need one people purposely lowering his item level to force 23 players to run the same dungeons over and over. This is one of the reason I don't want minimum item level for leveling dungeons, because people will start do this too here. And there is something else. People kicking a random party member so they can leave without penalty. This is fucking annoying an unfair.

Maybe some ways that could discourage this behavior:

1. Changing duty finder algorithm to detect if a player is purposely lowering his item level (but I am not sure if this is even possible). Or change it in the way people with the correct item level can enter in anyone despite people lowering theirs (but this may affect people who is doing the first raids for the first time).

2. Put a limit to item level. Let's say; 90 for Labyrinth, 110 for Syrcus, 130 for WoD, 210 for Void Ark, 240 for Weeping City, 270 for Dun Scaith, 340 for Rabanastre, 370 for Ridorana and 400 for Orbonne. By doing this, people will have to do mechanics again and not just brainless advance, so will kill the purpose of get this two raids only.

3. Totally remove the item level requirement, like leveling dungeons. The problem will be people undergeared again.

In addition to this, make leavers get the penalty even if they are not the first in leave to fix the problem of kicking randomly another innocent player to leave without penalty.

When you see even famous streamers (I will not point finger, but they are doing it) doing this in direct, you know how bad the thing is.

Another possibility could be to implement a "rotating" roulette like Frontline offers a different battlefield that changes each day. Each day offers a different tier of roulettes (one day is CT roulette, next day is Mhach roulette, etc.), and the ilevel requirement changes accordingly based on the top raid in the tier.

Of course, this has the obvious downside that people trying to queue for specific raids can only easily get a party together every third day... but would greatly improve the wait time on those days.

Not sure if it would be better or worse than the current system.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Xlantaa

1. Changing duty finder algorithm to detect if a player is purposely lowering his item level (but I am not sure if this is even possible). Or change it in the way people with the correct item level can enter in anyone despite people lowering theirs (but this may affect people who is doing the first raids for the first time).

---

As far as any algorithm goes, I think they could fix this simply by having the duty finder look for large disparities between current job level and ilv. Those with significant gaps would then have their rewards severely reduced. Like, not even worth using the roulette kind of reduction. As an example, I believe the ilv requirement for Rabanastre is 305-ish, so if a level 70-80 player decides to deliberately drop their ilv below this and then queue into alliance roulette, they will then be warned that by using the roulette they will receive a reduction/penalty to their daily reward: Proceed?

An exploit should be reported, not abused. It really lets you know which side of the fence a person stands on.

Reading through the solutions here I still think the best one would be to just give players some choice over what they get in the roulette, especially for alliance. We clearly have two camps, one that only wants the level 50's and one that wants anything but the level 50's. Getting the latter group to queue more solves the issue of waiting for the higher level raids.

Trying to "fix" the ilvl algorithm introduces more problems. You allow for undergeared players in content that is more challenging than most duties, encourage people to abandon more, and my own personal concern, I still won't be able to avoid the level 50 raids which makes the alliance roulette not worth running.

One solution would be MORE roulets, like someone in that other thread wants a Ex-trial roulett (id be up for that) we could get a 50/60 and a 70/80 roulett, just as id wish for the dungeons as well...

But yeah bc maybe one person is lazy and lowers the gear 23 others have to do the lv 50 stuff over and over...

Ofc the exp rewards should be scaled as well, balanced around the level of Duty vs. your lvl.

Quote:

---

An exploit should be reported, not abused. It really lets you know which side of the fence a person stands on.

---

There isn't really any point in "reporting" this. They knew full well what they were doing when they made the requirements of the roulette what they did, considering there exist other roulettes where you must qualify for every duty on it to be able to queue it. They also have the data for clear times on duties and I'm sure they can clearly see the disparity between ARR raids and the later ones. We shouldn't have to put 2 and 2 together for them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by PyurBlue

Reading through the solutions here I still think the best one would be to just give players some choice over what they get in the roulette, especially for alliance. We clearly have two camps, one that only wants the level 50's and one that wants anything but the level 50's. Getting the latter group to queue more solves the issue of waiting for the higher level raids.

Trying to "fix" the ilvl algorithm introduces more problems. You allow for undergeared players in content that is more challenging than most duties, encourage people to abandon more, and my own personal concern, I still won't be able to avoid the level 50 raids which makes the alliance roulette not worth running.

---

Allowing players to choose won't accomplish anything, and defeats the point of even having a roulette. People are going to pick the path of least resistance more often than not. Furthermore, the dev team doesn't want us trying to ignore dungeons or raids we dislike. That's why they have never introduced a veto type system despite people asking. They want us filling queues for people.

If an ilvl requirement were set, it's impossible to be undergeared for the raids. If you weren't able to access Alliance Roulette once you hit 70 unless you unlocked Orbonne, the lowest you could be is i365. That's perfectly fine for said raid.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kuroka

One solution would be MORE roulets, like someone in that other thread wants a Ex-trial roulett (id be up for that) we could get a 50/60 and a 70/80 roulett, just as id wish for the dungeons as well...

But yeah bc maybe one person is lazy and lowers the gear 23 others have to do the lv 50 stuff over and over...

Ofc the exp rewards should be scaled as well, balanced around the level of Duty vs. your lvl.

---

They likely aren't doing this because balancing the EXP gains would be a nightmare. If they're too low, no one will touch certain roulettes. If they're amazing, then everyone levels extremely fast and stops bothering with said roulettes since they no longer need them. An example of this is 50/60/70. A lot of people outright skip it because the EXP gains are garbage unless you get something from Stormblood.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gemina

As far as any algorithm goes, I think they could fix this simply by having the duty finder look for large disparities between current job level and ilv. Those with significant gaps would then have their rewards severely reduced. Like, not even worth using the roulette kind of reduction. As an example, I believe the ilv requirement for Rabanastre is 305-ish, so if a level 70-80 player decides to deliberately drop their ilv below this and then queue into alliance roulette, they will then be warned that by using the roulette they will receive a reduction/penalty to their daily reward: Proceed?

An exploit should be reported, not abused. It really lets you know which side of the fence a person stands on.

---

I actually rather like this idea. Have it be like a 90% penalty to the EXP gains and reward zero Goetia and Phan tomes. Basically, it's completely worthless to drop your ilvl.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by PyurBlue

Reading through the solutions here I still think the best one would be to just give players some choice over what they get in the roulette, especially for alliance. We clearly have two camps, one that only wants the level 50's and one that wants anything but the level 50's. Getting the latter group to queue more solves the issue of waiting for the higher level raids.

Trying to "fix" the ilvl algorithm introduces more problems. You allow for undergeared players in content that is more challenging than most duties, encourage people to abandon more, and my own personal concern, I still won't be able to avoid the level 50 raids which makes the alliance roulette not worth running.

---

I don't mind running the ARR raids so long as the dice everyone is using are legitimate. The raids already have a minimum ilv requirement, so you don't have to worry much about undergeared players in the higher level raids. Right now getting anything other a CT raid (more specifically LoTA and ST) is atrociously rare. It makes me wonder exactly how long this exploit has been going on.

I rarely do alliance roulette these days as I'm sick of running LotA and ST while I just mash my face of my keyboard.

I think a good solution to this issue would be to rebalance the older raids - make it so players actually need to do the mechanics. Nerf player stats or buff the bosses so they can't be burned down in a few minutes. I don't see why they can't just reduce the strength of level sync to make the older raids play the way they did back in 2.0.

I wonder why people like to run LoA over and over. The void ark raid is easier and doesn't have the risk of wipe that LoA does with the platforms. I would also love to see void ark more, because I am seriously bored with the ARR raids.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NessaWyvern

I wonder why people like to run LoA over and over. The void ark raid is easier and doesn't have the risk of wipe that LoA does with the platforms. I would also love to see void ark more, because I am seriously bored with the ARR raids.

---

Two reasons

1) Void Ark requires having gear below i205 to avoid Weeping City, which most people don't have.
2) It allows World of Darkness, which people still wipe on.

Basically, it's just easier to strip naked.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

Allowing players to choose won't accomplish anything, and defeats the point of even having a roulette. People are going to pick the path of least resistance more often than not. Furthermore, the dev team doesn't want us trying to ignore dungeons or raids we dislike. That's why they have never introduced a veto type system despite people asking. They want us filling queues for people.

If an ilvl requirement were set, it's impossible to be undergeared for the raids. If you weren't able to access Alliance Roulette once you hit 70 unless you unlocked Orbonne, the lowest you could be is i365. That's perfectly fine for said raid.

---

They want us filling queues for people, right. That's why I'm suggesting an opt out option. I don't fill queues for anyone waiting for alliance raids because I'd rather avoid the entire rouluette than get the really boring duties in it. If I could queue without being eligible for the raids I don't like, I would. It's a gain for everyone. Choice doesn't defeat the purpose of the roulette and if you think about it, we already have a choice in that we have multiple roulettes for filling different content. Every roulette except the Mentor roulette excludes duties. I'm just suggesting a slightly finer level of control. I feel like it's especially likely to work in the alliance roulette because we have a split of opinion on which raids are preferred. ARR is probably going to remain more popular overall no matter what is done, but if people who avoid the roulette entirely start queuing, that's a plus. More choice also means the people unwilling to deal with the 70 raids wouldn't be joining them and immediately quitting.

As for the ilvl requirement, I guess there are a few ways to implement it. As it is now it allows people to influence the raid that they get. If we change it so that the requirement is dynamic, people can still quit, some might just avoid unlocking certain raids. Those players like myself have no more incentive than now to queue, and new players (especially with Road to 70) might be cutoff from a roulette just because they don't meet the requirements for 1 duty within it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gemina

I don't mind running the ARR raids so long as the dice everyone is using are legitimate. The raids already have a minimum ilv requirement, so you don't have to worry much about undergeared players in the higher level raids. Right now getting anything other a CT raid (more specifically LoTA and ST) is atrociously rare. It makes me wonder exactly how long this exploit has been going on.

---

There's definitely a spectrum of opinions regarding the roulette's content. Not everyone is completely tired of the level 50's, but I'd gladly wipe to Thunder God repeatedly instead of dealing with the total boredom of a LoTA/ST run.

The undergearing issue could be fixed by forcing your ilvl to match your character level or scale to the highest level raid you've unlocked, but like I mentioned above that doesn't solve all the problems. It's pretty easy to reach 70 before getting to MSQ level 70, so new players might be inadvertently locked out of Alliance roulette. Players reaching current expansion content also have to contend with increasing their ilvl and they may be excluded from the roulette during that process. The people already willing to quit a duty they don't like will still be willing to quit. I guess since I don't queue for alliance I don't really know how common that is, but it happens enough that it's been brought up in this discussion.

I just want to promote the idea of opting out from certain duties because I think it can be done while keeping the roulette as a means to fill queues. SE is in a better position than me to know if it will work or not as they can monitor duty activity, but at least on paper, I can see the narrowing of roulette choice increasing player participation.