Shadowbringer: Summoner Changes Discussion

Honestly I wish I can toggle which EA can be auto cast by pet. All EA, except maybe garuda slipstream and titan earthen armor, can just be auto used by pet like before.

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Originally Posted by kyuxel

Honestly I wish I can toggle which EA can be auto cast by pet. All EA, except maybe garuda slipstream and titan earthen armor, can just be auto used by pet like before.

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I feel like a scrub for agreeing with this but you know what...I'd actually welcome it, the OGCD bloat and things to keep track of is so overwhelming it's hard to pay attention to boss mechanics.

I'm thinking it's not directly related to "going ham," so much as it's related to server tics. Even the best opener rotations I've seen would inherently put the egi at risk of dropping abilities, and it's basically impossible to account for without pacing out the oGCDs to be further apart.

And when designing these classes, you should basically expect that the player is going to fire off every oGCD in any order possible as fast as possible, I'm trying to find an optimal rotation but when I'm in a dungeon having gotten my 15th "Your pet cannot execute this action" error, in addition to tunnel visioning so hard I flat out cannot see bosses and their mechanics, and it makes me want to play a multitasking class that's easier like bard, there's a serious problem with the class design.

The issue comes down to a few specific points.

• The class has too many oGCDs
• Devotion, EA 1+2, ED, Fester, ES, Painflare, Bane are the oGCDs that cause major problems.
• The Pet oGCDs have a high chance of clipping each other and throwing away their effects either in part or entirely, including wasting the cooldown itself.
• The rotation outside of those specific problem oGCDs seems fine aside from having nothing to do on the back half of the rotaiton.
• Bane is an ability wanting for purpose, and exacerbates the oGCD issue, albeit only in dungeons against trash mobs typically. It's bar bloat, oGCD density, and just serves no purpose for an ability that I wish I could just set to autofire and pretend it doesn't exist (okay, not literally, but seriously the ability has no reason to exist).

Any change done should try to find a way to slow down the oGCD usage probably to about SB levels, especially in the opener (without micro-managing Contagion) and then find a way to distribute the abilities over more parts of the rotation more evenly.

The class needs work. It's not far, most of the changes need to be potency+cooldown changes, some can be resolved by deleting abilities and augmenting others, and others can be solved by just having one ability turn into another at a higher level. The class should not be a bard though, and it should not be more involved/harder than a bard to execute what is fundamentally the same style.

It shouldn't be too hard to fix, but I have a feeling if Summoner is not changed early, the class is going to end up with something akin to Machinist syndrome from SB where very few people actually play it because it has that many problems.

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Originally Posted by Taranok

I'm thinking it's not directly related to "going ham," so much as it's related to server tics. Even the best opener rotations I've seen would inherently put the egi at risk of dropping abilities, and it's basically impossible to account for without pacing out the oGCDs to be further apart.

And when designing these classes, you should basically expect that the player is going to fire off every oGCD in any order possible as fast as possible, I'm trying to find an optimal rotation but when I'm in a dungeon having gotten my 15th "Your pet cannot execute this action" error, in addition to tunnel visioning so hard I flat out cannot see bosses and their mechanics, and it makes me want to play a multitasking class that's easier like bard, there's a serious problem with the class design.

The issue comes down to a few specific points.

• The class has too many oGCDs
• Devotion, EA 1+2, ED, Fester, ES, Painflare, Bane are the oGCDs that cause major problems.
• The Pet oGCDs have a high chance of clipping each other and throwing away their effects either in part or entirely, including wasting the cooldown itself.
• The rotation outside of those specific problem oGCDs seems fine aside from having nothing to do on the back half of the rotaiton.
• Bane is an ability wanting for purpose, and exacerbates the oGCD issue, albeit only in dungeons against trash mobs typically. It's bar bloat, oGCD density, and just serves no purpose for an ability that I wish I could just set to autofire and pretend it doesn't exist (okay, not literally, but seriously the ability has no reason to exist).

Any change done should try to find a way to slow down the oGCD usage probably to about SB levels, especially in the opener (without micro-managing Contagion) and then find a way to distribute the abilities over more parts of the rotation more evenly.

The class needs work. It's not far, most of the changes need to be potency+cooldown changes, some can be resolved by deleting abilities and augmenting others, and others can be solved by just having one ability turn into another at a higher level. The class should not be a bard though, and it should not be more involved/harder than a bard to execute what is fundamentally the same style.

It shouldn't be too hard to fix, but I have a feeling if Summoner is not changed early, the class is going to end up with something akin to Machinist syndrome from SB where very few people actually play it because it has that many problems.

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What Kyuxel has actually suggested isn't a bad idea. Just allow the Egi to automatically do the assaults and net us Ruin IVs. That would substantially solve this OGCD bloat mess...

Another solution would just be to straight up make Ruin III instant cast, or increase the potency on Ruin II again so it's not a DPS loss to use Ruin III as filler and Ruin II when you need to weave.

I'm finding Summoner to be a little overwhelming to keep up with currently. :confused:

That being said, I'm glad that you largely know what to expect from the job early on since there's a huge gap before you gain your final ability at Lv.80.

Overall, I'm glad SMN feels busier than just Ruin III x 5. And I feel burstier, at least a little.

Major problems so far:
Physick. It's still Mind-based, the job isn't given the Mind to support it. If Firebird's heal is Int-based, it's about time for Physick to get an Int-trait as well, at level 30. I'm not looking for RDM numbers here, but 700 at level 70 is asinine.
Tied to lack of HP restoration, SMN is far squishier than it used to be. It wouldn't be so much a problem if Titan's Egi I activated Ruin IV, but it does not, while the other attack-spells do. Which tells me it's probably coded as "resolve after attack" instead of "resolve after activation". That also needs to change.
If we're *not* going to get a decent Physick, can we at least get Energy Drain/Siphon to restore a percentage of HP? Even 5% might do wonders, since the skill is every 30 seconds.

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Originally Posted by Rauderi

Overall, I'm glad SMN feels busier than just Ruin III x 5. And I feel burstier, at least a little.

Major problems so far:
Physick. It's still Mind-based, the job isn't given the Mind to support it. If Firebird's heal is Int-based, it's about time for Physick to get an Int-trait as well, at level 30. I'm not looking for RDM numbers here, but 700 at level 70 is asinine.
Tied to lack of HP restoration, SMN is far squishier than it used to be. It wouldn't be so much a problem if Titan's Egi I activated Ruin IV, but it does not, while the other attack-spells do. Which tells me it's probably coded as "resolve after attack" instead of "resolve after activation". That also needs to change.
If we're *not* going to get a decent Physick, can we at least get Energy Drain/Siphon to restore a percentage of HP? Even 5% might do wonders, since the skill is every 30 seconds.

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I agree with the Energy Drain part. They can leave Physick alone if they want but having ED heal us a bit would be amazing. Otherwise I like the changes. Of feels like we have a lot more choice where as before there was just one set rotation you repeated over and over again. This time I feel like I have options and damage seems to be more sustained. All around Summoner feels so much more satisfying especially summoning Phoenix. It could definitely use a few touch ups along the way but I'm happy that we got a decent rework. Also, a bit unrelated, but a lot of people are upset with Sch changes whereas I actually quite like them. If they gave us Enegry Drain back, it would be perfect.

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Originally Posted by xXAzurePrimeXx

I agree with the Energy Drain part. They can leave Physick alone if they want but having ED heal us a bit would be amazing. Otherwise I like the changes. Of feels like we have a lot more choice where as before there was just one set rotation you repeated over and over again. This time I feel like I have options and damage seems to be more sustained. All around Summoner feels so much more satisfying especially summoning Phoenix. It could definitely use a few touch ups along the way but I'm happy that we got a decent rework. Also, a bit unrelated, but a lot of people are upset with Sch changes whereas I actually quite like them. If they gave us Enegry Drain back, it would be perfect.

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Things I would like for SMN:

• Change to FBT/DWT that gives us more flexibility on when we use them. (Either Nemekh's theorized ability from the thread he did on SMN changes or by putting 2 charges on Trance. I'm not picky)
• Egi Assault I+II triggering Further Ruin off of the SMN activating the ability, not the Pet using the ability
• Either let Physick scale off Int or give us SOMETHING to offset losing Titan tanking. His Egi Assault I is a good starting place. Energy Drain/Siphon giving back Health percentage would be a good place to continue but we're gonna need more than that.

Over all I'm liking the changes.

I'm all for cutting back on oGCDs a little, but I'd prefer they do so without just turning our pets into random glowy blobs again.
I'd find the design of rewarding player to not actively use their abilities (by making them automatic) pretty questionable, especially since Further Ruin is tied to it. Let's face it, Summoner is a Pet Job (or at least the closest equivalent, depending on if your definition of Pet requires HP Bars), you should have to command your Egi for full effectiveness, at least in my opinion. Being able to automate your Pet is fine in and of itself, but there should be a drawback.
Also, we've finally just moved on from being a Ruin Mage with auto attacking Blobs, I'd prefer not to go back to that.

If the Devs make cuts to our oGCDs, I'd rather they take a look at whats left of the Aetherflow Mechanic and ask themselves which parts are really worth keeping around now that its divorced from our major Job Mechanic. Personally I'd get rid of Energy Drain/Siphon (give it to back to SCH, they'll love it), combine Bane and Painflare into one skill (since both are only used during AoE anyway), and throw Fester and Baneflare onto a shared Chargetimer. If that happens to be impossible due to technical challenges, maybe turn Aetherflow into a passive that works similar to how WHMs Lilies work now; gaining SMN a stack of Aetherflow every 20 seconds or so.
(Or, for a more drastic Pipedream; turn Fester and "Baneflare" into Pet Abilities, mock up an Egi Assault 3 and redistribute any lost potency towards other Pet Abilites and additional Ruin IVs procced by using EA3. Also, lower Enkindle Cooldown ever further, let the Egis get some burst action too. Bonus Points if Titans EA3 was some sort of Reverse Sustain, putting a Regen on the Summoner to augment Earther Armor. Unlikely, I know, but an Elf can dream right?)

Speaking of Titan: They really shoud take another look, because currently Earthern Armor is very clunky to use in most Content but also too weak to really help in solo situations (PotD/HoH/soloing Wonderous Tails stuff etc). I really wish the devs would just embrace the whole Solo/Support Pet possibility as I see no reason to be worried about it encroaching on regular Contest so long as Titan trades enough damage for it.
Also, make EAs ranged so the Pets don't eat it, lol.

Sorry if this is a bit disorderly and incoherent, just following my train of thought here. I honestly have more thoughts and Ideas, but I don't want to overdo it before I've seen the full picture at level 80.

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Originally Posted by ArcaneCarbuncle

I'm all for cutting back on oGCDs a little, but I'd prefer they do so without just turning our pets into random glowy blobs again.
I'd find the design of rewarding player to not actively use their abilities (by making them automatic) pretty questionable, especially since Further Ruin is tied to it. Let's face it, Summoner is a Pet Job (or at least the closest equivalent, depending on if your definition of Pet requires HP Bars), you should have to command your Egi for full effectiveness, at least in my opinion. Being able to automate your Pet is fine in and of itself, but there should be a drawback.
Also, we've finally just moved on from being a Ruin Mage with auto attacking Blobs, I'd prefer not to go back to that.

If the Devs make cuts to our oGCDs, I'd rather they take a look at whats left of the Aetherflow Mechanic and ask themselves which parts are really worth keeping around now that its divorced from our major Job Mechanic. Personally I'd get rid of Energy Drain/Siphon (give it to back to SCH, they'll love it), combine Bane and Painflare into one skill (since both are only used during AoE anyway), and throw Fester and Baneflare onto a shared Chargetimer. If that happens to be impossible due to technical challenges, maybe turn Aetherflow into a passive that works similar to how WHMs Lilies work now; gaining SMN a stack of Aetherflow every 20 seconds or so.
(Or, for a more drastic Pipedream; turn Fester and "Baneflare" into Pet Abilities, mock up an Egi Assault 3 and redistribute any lost potency towards other Pet Abilites and additional Ruin IVs procced by using EA3. Also, lower Enkindle Cooldown ever further, let the Egis get some burst action too. Bonus Points if Titans EA3 was some sort of Reverse Sustain, putting a Regen on the Summoner to augment Earther Armor. Unlikely, I know, but an Elf can dream right?)

Speaking of Titan: They really shoud take another look, because currently Earthern Armor is very clunky to use in most Content but also too weak to really help in solo situations (PotD/HoH/soloing Wonderous Tails stuff etc). I really wish the devs would just embrace the whole Solo/Support Pet possibility as I see no reason to be worried about it encroaching on regular Contest so long as Titan trades enough damage for it.
Also, make EAs ranged so the Pets don't eat it, lol.

Sorry if this is a bit disorderly and incoherent, just following my train of thought here. I honestly have more thoughts and Ideas, but I don't want to overdo it before I've seen the full picture at level 80.

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I could see them getting rid of Aetherflow entirely and just changing Fester/Painflare to a 15sec recast 1sec CD with 4 shared charges.

/signs for the above. And fester not requiring dots to do 300 potency and instead be a 300 potency OGCD without requirements too. It's so stupid to get caught up in some random dungeon miniboss 10kHP vines and needing either 3 ruin III or Bio Miasma Ruin III to kill something a RDM can take down with a single Verthunder/Veraero. Seriously the whole thing is so complex but so inconvenient at the same time it makes me wanna cry, because I love SMN's design so much and I was very excited with these 2 demi summons.

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Originally Posted by SchrodingersWaffle

I could see them getting rid of Aetherflow entirely and just changing Fester/Painflare to a 15sec recast 1sec CD with 4 shared charges.

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Yup, that would be the quick and easy fix, though im not entirely sure if just cutting out ED/ES is enough which is why I suggested lowering Fester/Painflares uses per minute back to just 3 (cutting a total of 4 oGCDs per minute).
Ultimately though this change stands and falls with SE's ability to even put Skills on shared charges (don't see why not, but then again it's SE...).

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Originally Posted by Gallus

/signs for the above. And fester not requiring dots to do 300 potency and instead be a 300 potency OGCD without requirements too. It's so stupid to get caught up in some random dungeon miniboss 10kHP vines and needing either 3 ruin III or Bio Miasma Ruin III to kill something a RDM can take down with a single Verthunder/Veraero. Seriously the whole thing is so complex but so inconvenient at the same time it makes me wanna cry, because I love SMN's design so much and I was very excited with these 2 demi summons.

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Hmm, I can see where you're coming from. (The Idealist in me wants to say thats what EAs should be for, but the Realist tells me SE might need another expansion to make that work, so...)
On one hand I think divorcing Fester and the DoTs might make it a bit too easy, on the other hand though proper play is already rewarded through stronger Ruins now; and Painflare has nothing to do with your DoTs either so... why not? Alternatively, should they choose to lower Fester usages per minutes they could just redistribute the lost Potency into Festers base potency, so it has 200 base + 100 per DoT for a total of 400, giving you 300 Potency after using just Bio III for a 1 GCD burst.

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Originally Posted by ArcaneCarbuncle

Yup, that would be the quick and easy fix, though im not entirely sure if just cutting out ED/ES is enough which is why I suggested lowering Fester/Painflares uses per minute back to just 3 (cutting a total of 4 oGCDs per minute).
Ultimately though this change stands and falls with SE's ability to even put Skills on shared charges (don't see why not, but then again it's SE...).



Hmm, I can see where you're coming from. (The Idealist in me wants to say thats what EAs should be for, but the Realist tells me SE might need another expansion to make that work, so...)
On one hand I think divorcing Fester and the DoTs might make it a bit too easy, on the other hand though proper play is already rewarded through stronger Ruins now; and Painflare has nothing to do with your DoTs either so... why not? Alternatively, should they choose to lower Fester usages per minutes they could just redistribute the lost Potency into Festers base potency, so it has 200 base + 100 per DoT for a total of 400, giving you 300 Potency after using just Bio III for a 1 GCD burst.

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Honestly if they do shift Fester away from Aetherflow and give it 300 pot base, I'd say just get rid of the DoTs all together, and shift the potency into Dreadwyrm Trance, maybe by letting Deathflare stack to 3, and giving us an different hardhitting finisher, maybe put Megaflare in somehow.

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Originally Posted by ArcaneCarbuncle

Yup, that would be the quick and easy fix, though im not entirely sure if just cutting out ED/ES is enough which is why I suggested lowering Fester/Painflares uses per minute back to just 3 (cutting a total of 4 oGCDs per minute).
Ultimately though this change stands and falls with SE's ability to even put Skills on shared charges (don't see why not, but then again it's SE...).



Hmm, I can see where you're coming from. (The Idealist in me wants to say thats what EAs should be for, but the Realist tells me SE might need another expansion to make that work, so...)
On one hand I think divorcing Fester and the DoTs might make it a bit too easy, on the other hand though proper play is already rewarded through stronger Ruins now; and Painflare has nothing to do with your DoTs either so... why not? Alternatively, should they choose to lower Fester usages per minutes they could just redistribute the lost Potency into Festers base potency, so it has 200 base + 100 per DoT for a total of 400, giving you 300 Potency after using just Bio III for a 1 GCD burst.

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Realistically the devs could literally delete EA1 and 2, shove Ruin 4 procs onto ED/ES (1 at 62, 2 at 74), give ED a charge of 2 to prevent annoying cooldown clipping, and increase the potency of ruin spells to compensate for the loss of a mere 400 potency per minute, and the class would be 100% functional without the bad busywork.

They can also increase Outward's aoe to be 100 by default to account for Garuda's loss of aoe ability or just buff Garuda to closer to 80 potency per GCD or what have you. It wouldn't be hard to do as a mid-patch change to make the class not feel bad, since the class is mostly there already.

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Originally Posted by Taranok

Realistically the devs could literally delete EA1 and 2, shove Ruin 4 procs onto ED/ES (1 at 62, 2 at 74), give ED a charge of 2 to prevent annoying cooldown clipping, and increase the potency of ruin spells to compensate for the loss of a mere 400 potency per minute, and the class would be 100% functional without the bad busywork.

They can also increase Outward's aoe to be 100 by default to account for Garuda's loss of aoe ability or just buff Garuda to closer to 80 potency per GCD or what have you. It wouldn't be hard to do as a mid-patch change to make the class not feel bad, since the class is mostly there already.

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Yeah, I'll pass. I've waited years for them to finally make Summoner feel like a Summoner, and actually getting to command my Egis is a big part of that. From where I stand, Flavour is just as important to a job than functionality is - especially in this game where every role tends to be homogenized to a point. I'd rather they try to make changes that keep the class fantasy than turn Summoners into mere Ruin Mages again.
Besides, Aetherflow is a worse offender when it comes to "busywork" than EA is, so if any cuts should happen, I'd prefer they start there.

Add in as much flavour as you want, but you can't have this amount of bloat with the egis giving spell queue errors.

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Originally Posted by Gallus

Add in as much flavour as you want, but you can't have this amount of bloat with the egis giving spell queue errors.

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Only had one of those once, and that was when I was trying to get it. In practice they are fairly easy to avoid by simply spacing EA Double Weaves out properly, which cutting back on other bloat would make easier, effectively turning it into a non-issue as far as I am concerned.
And I'll say it again: I'm all for cutting some of the bloat, I'd just prefer for it to not be EA that gets the cut. But in the end it's SE's decision anyway. Simply stating my opinion here.

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Originally Posted by Gallus

Add in as much flavour as you want, but you can't have this amount of bloat with the egis giving spell queue errors.

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Question, are you weaving the EA between ruin cast or trying to do them all at once?

One thing the might help would be changing Energy Drain to 200 potency with 60s recast time, giving you 4 aetherflow stacks per minute instead of 2 per 30s.

I love the changes. Summoner feels more active instead of just pet spamming. Best change so far Ive seen

New SMN is pretty overwhelming that I actually leveled BLM instead lol (that and I'm enjoying BLM more than SMN later in 4.x), but I appreciate it.
There's a lot of good changes, but there's just so many things to keep track of now and imo the flow of the job doesn't feel too great. They might want to cut down the oGCDs a little bit.

I might have a different opinion when I have it at 80.

Like I think SE is moving on the right path but I think they missed their mark.
I like being so active, it's not that I have too much to do, it's that I have too many (separate) things/timers to keep track of that my brainmeats get so cluttered.
It's like I'm frantically playing catch-up with my cooldowns @@

I loved Summoner in Stormblood and love it even more now! The fast pace feels soooo good. Definitely will be my main caster for this expansion.

So far I really like it. The pet feels more important. The great focus on rotating summons is surprisingly enough quite loyal to the way the summons have worked in older FF (summon for a single attack, being able to summon different ones through combat). The focus on controlling pet makes wonders for the job identity while offering more control over Ruin IV and making the player plan their rotation more carefully. Dreadwyrm trance and Phoenix Trance are similar enough not to feel confused, but work differently enough to felt as different phases of the same rotation. Having to plan around your opening in dungeon depending on which phase you are is great. While Titan could still be better, having each Egi have different roles and uses is, IMO, a good idea and give you access to more skills without being filling the skill bar too much.The class is hectic and intense, there is always something to do and feels so fast compared to the other casters. Is really its own beast. I think it may be hard but is not bad to be so, it really differentiates from the other two and caters to a different play style. While there may be some issues, like Dreadwyrm trance being locked by Summon Bahamut, which can be a bit clunky, I'll definitively maining it this expansion, really liked it in SB, but ShB so far is really great.

I'm finding that low level SMN ability to solo mobs in the field has been utterly destroyed by the pet changes. At level 38 with healing focused chocobo companion I'm constantly finding that mobs as low as lvl 31* (depending on the mob) are quite capable of bringing you to the edge of death. I've got fairly good gear for my level also but taking the brunt of all attacks, well, we're just far too squishy for that. Without the pet between us and the mob they're just tearing through my HP. It makes doing fates certain other activities problematic. I've said it before but it seems like this patch has been completely balanced around lvl 60+ with little regard for getting there.

*Just thought I'd add this note that this was a malboro type mob which granted are more difficult than other mobs comparatively just so I don't look too incompetent. But a 7 level advantage on my part should make it a walkover.

Lv 78 and i love the changing of SMN so far, we lost some skill but our oGCD go up instead, so it's feel our new rotaion more busy than the old one, also the phoenix phase make me feel like i am a walking nuke in big pull, lol

I've been enjoying SMN changes so farrl. I just hit 80 last night. I agree at first I felt like I was watching all my cooldowns heavily and felt like I was missing boss mechanics in dungeons but as my hand gets more comfortable and I begin to realize what cooldowns are necessary to watch it is getting easier.

I find doubling down on EG1 and 2 with Ifrit in a weave is more consistent than Garuda. However if I try to accomplish it before Ifrit is in melee range it will throw the ability error. I do see the second assault go off eventually but it takes practically a GCD longer. I find that the only time I need to hard cast my dots is during the last 5 seconds of Bahamut. Any other time tri-disaster always seems to be ready. I get 1 at the opening, one with DWT refresh, then hard cast dots during Bahamut, then one right before entering Phoenix trance, then one outside of Phoenix trance just as dots are falling off. Doing that means that as the dots fall off, DWT is ready to go and I get to start all over again.

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Originally Posted by ArcaneCarbuncle

Yeah, I'll pass. I've waited years for them to finally make Summoner feel like a Summoner, and actually getting to command my Egis is a big part of that. From where I stand, Flavour is just as important to a job than functionality is - especially in this game where every role tends to be homogenized to a point. I'd rather they try to make changes that keep the class fantasy than turn Summoners into mere Ruin Mages again.
Besides, Aetherflow is a worse offender when it comes to "busywork" than EA is, so if any cuts should happen, I'd prefer they start there.

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Considering that the Egis are the least summoner aspect of summoner, I fail to see your point. I'd seriously delete the Egis and all their associated abilities and completely rework how low level summoner works. To the point where the carbuncles are your low level summons, weak and frail. Then by 50 you would instead summon Demi-Ifrit and Demi-'Ruda, possibly Demi-Titan, and by 80 you'd do Bahamut and Phoenix, and possibly a third summon.

I would then take abilities like enkindle or Egi-Assault and turn those into "Let's summon old summons to attack either for a singular attack or for longer priods of time, but we purely summon them." So you could have demi-bahamut and Phoenix as your primary summons, and when you enkindle you summon Ifrit/Garuda/Titan, either individually (random rotation) or all 3.

That would make me feel more like a summoner than having to tell the carbuncle to do a left-handed attack instead of a right handed attack every 30 seconds, and DB/DP make me feel more like a summoner than the egis ever can or ever will.

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Originally Posted by Roda

Like I think SE is moving on the right path but I think they missed their mark.
I like being so active, it's not that I have too much to do, it's that I have too many (separate) things/timers to keep track of that my brainmeats get so cluttered.
It's like I'm frantically playing catch-up with my cooldowns @@

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It does eventually start to move into a flow, but my issue is that in addition to tunnel visioning, I spend so much time trying to get out all of the oGCDs that I literally don't have time for something as basic as casting outburst, our filler aoe spell, except during DWT specifically where everything's instant cast. The class is just not set up to handle this many oGCDs this often and this quickly, and pretty much no class likes repeatedly and consistently double weaving.

If this were Red Mage, it would at least make some sense because RDM has every other GCD being instant cast as a guarantee, but SMN is not and it can't handle the sheer bulk of abilities flying out, so it clashes heavily with the actual abilities of the class.

I'm only at LV74 at present, so my opinion may change in time once I get to 80. At this point, I have a lot of mixed feelings. For one, the Trance timing seems so wonky now. I have no idea how to pace out my rotations yet to line things up in the best way. To be fair, the old setup did have a fair amount of "downtime" between the second DWT and Bahamut, then a bit more after Bahamut left. Despite the OGCDs not counting toward Wyrmwave anymore I still feel like weaving them in is intended during that phase, as I often find Energy Drain lining up usually as I begin it. On the other hand, I do really like the Firebird Trance, and it's also nice that Ruin IV procs don't fall off during that phase. Speaking of Ruin IV, it seems like it's a lot less frequent than it was before, now that you have to rely mainly on Egi Assaults to proc them. I'm also still getting used to Lucid coming back off cooldown so much sooner, and the changes to MP. Before it was rare when I needed to worry about MP, even factoring Mana Shifts and the occasional rez. Now it seems like MP management is much more relevant, and that's not necessarily a bad thing but it does feel very different than I'm used to. Overall, it seems like a bit of a jumble so far, but as I said before, my thoughts may change once I'm at 80 and maybe have a better sense of how the rhythm of the new setup is supposed to work. In short, I do like it but it's going to take some work to figure out how I should be making the most of it.

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Originally Posted by Taranok

It does eventually start to move into a flow, but my issue is that in addition to tunnel visioning, I spend so much time trying to get out all of the oGCDs that I literally don't have time for something as basic as casting outburst, our filler aoe spell, except during DWT specifically where everything's instant cast. The class is just not set up to handle this many oGCDs this often and this quickly, and pretty much no class likes repeatedly and consistently double weaving.

If this were Red Mage, it would at least make some sense because RDM has every other GCD being instant cast as a guarantee, but SMN is not and it can't handle the sheer bulk of abilities flying out, so it clashes heavily with the actual abilities of the class.

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I pointed this out in the other thread, but it feels like the intent is for us use Ruin II to weave oGCDs and to use the instant Ruin IIIs provided by the initial DWT to dump as many of our charged oGCDs as we can, e.g. try and get Energy Drain, Fester, and both Egi Assaults on complete CD before the end of DWT, so we can be casting Ruin III more often, only using Ruin II/IV as necessary to cast an oGCD.

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Originally Posted by SchrodingersWaffle

I pointed this out in the other thread, but it feels like the intent is for us use Ruin II to weave oGCDs and to use the instant Ruin IIIs provided by the initial DWT to dump as many of our charged oGCDs as we can, e.g. try and get Energy Drain, Fester, and both Egi Assaults on complete CD before the end of DWT, so we can be casting Ruin III more often, only using Ruin II/IV as necessary to cast an oGCD.

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I mean, that's what I'm doing, and that causes the class to error like mad for the egi and the sheer raw density of everything is insane, in addition to keeping track of encounter mechanics. The fact that every 30 seconds is a guaranteed 5 oGCDs, you have 5 on one minute, and 3 on the next, the class is just absolute insanity. Then you have devotion (3m) and enkindle (even more for DWT). And, who can forget, TD, which you need to pump out every 30 seconds except once per 2 minutes.

There's something around 19 separate oGCDs you have to get out in the opener, and you average close to one oGCD per every other GCD on a class that's supposed to actually be hardcasting spells. It doesn't play nicely if you have inconsistent ping and the sheer volume of crap you need to take care of, regardless of how it's intended to be used, is way too high for any class to reasonably justify.

I can't think of a single class in the history of the game that has had to pump out as many oGCDs as Summoner has to in ShB, it blows MCH and Bard, the Multitasking champions of SB and HW, out of the water on density. This type of playstyle would be fine on a class intended to handle it, like Bard, Machinist, or Dancer. But it's not fine on caster DPS.

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Originally Posted by Taranok

I can't think of a single class in the history of the game that has had to pump out as many oGCDs as Summoner has to in ShB, it blows MCH and Bard, the Multitasking champions of SB and HW, out of the water on density. This type of playstyle would be fine on a class intended to handle it, like Bard, Machinist, or Dancer. But it's not fine on caster DPS.

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But why not? What is wrong with a creating a busy caster? Seriously asking, as I'm not that knowledgeable. To me, this iteration of SMN is being very fun. While it is true I was having issues at the beginning, but I can already feel myself improving and becoming better, with less and less tunnel vision. I feel like SMN gives me a goal to work towards, and I'm each possible moment seeking to practice and improve in real combat situation. The fast pace of the class is mind blowing, it feel almost every second there is something to do, and I find this stimulating. The recast time seem to go very well with each other, usually is very easy to make different abilities synch with each other without putting too much though, letting you focus more on execution rather that planning. Is different from the other two casters and its a play style I'm enjoying greatly. Changing from summon to summon fast to adapt has been also quite enjoyable for me.

Said this, some of the changes proposed in this thread seemed interesting, some of yours too, but I would be lying if I said I want for the class to become less "busy". Still, have to reach max level, so perhaps my perception will change then.

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the class is just absolute insanity

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Funny enough, is the reason I love it. To me it feels like I'm melting the enemy on a barrage of spells and Egis attacks.

I've found that not trying to double weave Egi-related oGCDs(Enkindle, Egi Assault I, Egi Assault II) has helped. You can do an Egi Assault with non-Egi oGCD, or two non-Egi oGCD's together, but never two Egi-related oGCDs. That's how you get errors.

At least half the SMNs I have come across so far couldn't even figure out that Garuda is meant for trash pulls and Ifrit for bosses. Doing incredibly good DPS with current SMN while handling mechanics perfectly? I can see the 0.1% of the SMN playerbase achieving it.

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Originally Posted by Gallus

At least half the SMNs I have come across so far couldn't even figure out that Garuda is meant for trash pulls and Ifrit for bosses. Doing incredibly good DPS with current SMN while handling mechanics perfectly? I can see the 0.1% of the SMN playerbase achieving it.

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True, I'll not argue that point. I think you're low-balling the number a little, but the point stands.

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Originally Posted by Elgeron

But why not? What is wrong with a creating a busy caster?

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First of all, it's worth noting that Summoner typically hasn't been a busy caster. It's busier than BLM, but as of SB despite the tedious micromanagement of contagion, it was never a busy caster. Red mage was always the "busy" caster and it has a playstyle that best suits a busy caster. That is, half of all GCDs, always, are instant cast. So it has a lot of opportunity to make use of oGCDs, which it has many of, though ironically nowhere close to the new Summoner.

After this, the classes "busier" than Red Mage are always the Ranged DPS classes. Bard, Machinist, and now Dancer. Of these, Dancers appears to be the least busy, but it's still moderately busy, and I believe Bard is the most busy as of ShB. So if you want a busy playstyle, the playstyle exists both in caster form and in other DPS, including melee.

What breaks it for summoner is that the class effectively doesn't have enough opportunity to do what it needs to do. At level 72, you basically have enough of the rotation to know everything if you never enkindle or use EAs during Phoenix, it's basically the same just mix in an Enkindle Phoenix oGCD and you'd get it.

The classes breaks in about 3 areas. 1, the opener has literally about 18 oGCDs it needs to cast within 15 seconds. It needs to double weave but if you run into ping issues, double weaving is likely beyond your capabilities to reliably do. I've noticed some SMN oGCDs double weave worse than others, making the entire issue more frustrating than it needs to be as well.

The second is that the nature of how EA works means it is very easy to get the game to throw errors at you and eat the cooldown without giving you anything to show for it. Or maybe it does and the error is erroneous, but it throws out errors like mad during normal play.

The third is that the AoE rotation, due to how busy the ST rotation is, is so problematic that you flat out cannot cast Outburst outside of DWT because you don't have enough time and are flatly inundated with too many oGCDs to cast, so the rotation especially in AoE is constantly spent either not casting anything, or casting ruin 2/4 to get out your ESes, your Painflares, your banes, and your EAs. This isn't even factoring in Enkindle and Devotion, which you still have to find room for.

Play the class at level 60 and, despite it having some of the worst offenders of the rotation around, you'll notice the class flows a lot better overall, albeit the aoe rotation is still a complete and utter nightmare.

Personally, I completely go nuts with the aoe, I find it a lot less problematic, because let's be honest here, when you have 4-5 mobs you aren't going to throw a Ruin II just so that you can weave that painflare...you are just going to spam outburst and clip painflare. AOE is simpler, in the sense you spread your dots with bane, start spamming outburst and then clip one or two ogcds between each outburst, weaving here isn't worth it unless you are under DWT or FBT.

Now...your single target rotation is a whole another story...

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Originally Posted by Gallus

Personally, I completely go nuts with the aoe, I find it a lot less problematic, because let's be honest here, when you have 4-5 mobs you aren't going to throw a Ruin II just so that you can weave that painflare...you are just going to spam outburst and clip painflare. AOE is simpler, in the sense you spread your dots with bane, start spamming outburst and then clip one or two ogcds between each outburst, weaving here isn't worth it unless you are under DWT or FBT.

Now...your single target rotation is a whole another story...

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To be fair, in a lot of cases you'll probably want that Ruin II every now and then for double-weaves rather than single. For instance, you can double-weave that Painflare with one of the Egi Assaults/Enkindle for added aoe, or you may need to refresh DoTs with Tri-Disaster and Bane. I know it's not overly important in an average dungeon with trash pulls, but it's definitely a consideration.

With the fact that Enkindle Bahamut/Phoenix has a 10s recast now do you think we can stack enough spell speed to fit a third enkindle in per summon?

Speed does not affect abilities. The recast is fixed, you can only achieve 2 real enkindles per Demi summon window.