Non-binary option for characters, please?

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

Yeah, and all of that is ridiculous. Forks and spoons are just inanimate silverware; they don't have a gender.

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Did you just call his language ridiculous?...

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

Any dictionary or encyclopedia or whatever nowadays that equates sex and gender is wrong.

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"Could it be me that's wrong? No, no it's everyone else who is wrong."

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Originally Posted by Jandor

"Could it be me that's wrong? No, no it's everyone else who is wrong."

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Language is an ever evolving thing, so dictionaries are temporary by their very definition. It's also why you see hardcopy dictionaries and encyclopedias keep getting new releases instead of just the old ones being reprinted - those things change and evolve.

And as someone whose native tongue is gendered to an extreme, yes, that sort of thing is ridiculous. Especially since languages tend to break their own rules more often than not when dealing with gendered words. "Oh if it ends in this string of letters, it's female, other than this collection of words, that are male". To this day I remember a test I took where I got one of those nonsense questions wrong but even the teacher missed it and I got full marks.

The only good thing that comes out of it is watching the mortified looks on people's faces when I use the 'wrong' gendered words for myself. Some people are so fragile.

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Originally Posted by Jandor

Did you just call his language ridiculous?...

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It’s funny how witnessing people denying other peoples very identity and way of life isn’t anything to raise your eyebrows to, but someone criticising the noises and words we utter from our mouths and scribble on paper is. Huh. How logical.

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That's a very poor attitude to have about something completely harmless.

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Except, if you've been keeping up, you'd know it isn't exactly harmless.

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Did you just call his language ridiculous?...

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The gendering of forks and spoons? Yeah, it is ridiculous. Prove me wrong.

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"Could it be me that's wrong? No, no it's everyone else who is wrong."

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Ahh, good, you're getting the hang of things. :)

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

I don't think you realize how much effort goes into actually balancing a fight's difficulty properly, taking assets aside. If it was this easy for them to pull fights out of their asses for us, I don't think we would be as starved for casual content as we often are lately.

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And I don't think you realize how important end game raiding is for this game. Should I remind you what happened during 3.1? It only took one misstep with gordias savage.

If we're going to discuss about what kind of content can be removed based on the number of players that take part in it, we should say goodbye to the gold saucer and pvp first. Hardcore raiding content is what keeps this game alive for players at level cap. Just think about what would happen without all those hc raiders that create guides for other players and stream on twitch/youtube. The game would instantly die.

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

Except, if you've been keeping up, you'd know it isn't exactly harmless.


The gendering of forks and spoons? Yeah, it is ridiculous. Prove me wrong.


Ahh, good, you're getting the hang of things. :)

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You seem very combative and are eager to disrespect and brush off others without any sort of constructive response. You understand that's why no one sees anything from your point of view right?

I'd rather them not divert valuable resources to something that will affect a very small portion of the playerbase when there are glaring issues with the game that need fixing or adjusting and would affect a much larger group. I mean come on...pronouns..?

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Hardcore raiding content is what keeps this game alive for players at level cap. Just think about what would happen without all those hc raiders that create guides for other players and stream on twitch/youtube. The game would instantly die.

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rofl

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You seem very combative and are eager to disrespect and brush off others without any sort of constructive response. You understand that's why no one sees anything from your point of view right?

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First of all, I don't think I'm being any more "combative" or "disrespectful" than many, many others in this thread have been. Second of all, I'm not here to gain anyone's approval.

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

First of all, I don't think I'm being any more "combative" or "disrespectful" than many, many others in this thread have been. Second of all, I'm not here to gain anyone's approval.

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Right, you're just trying to change society by calling people uncultured and uncivilized.

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Originally Posted by BillyKaplan

Language is an ever evolving thing, so dictionaries are temporary by their very definition.

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You know the problem with this logic here?!

What I said is that you can use "gender" in any case you can use "sex", but it is not correct the other way around.

Let's now consider who agrees with it, alright?

Dictionaries/encyclopedias.
Scientists.
Biologists.
Journalists.
Linguists.
Writers.
Game developers.
Doctors.
In general, entertainment industry.
Politicians.
General public.
Some of the minorities.

Who does NOT agree with it?!
Small part of some of the minorities.
Some supporters of the certain minorities.


Now then, do you see the problem?! The language is ever-evolving, yes. However, the list is vastly larger for the supporters of what I said against the ones contesting it.

I'm not saying that what that person is saying won't be correct in a decade, two, five. I'm saying that it is NOT CORRECT NOW. It is not. This word did NOT yet evolve into what that poster is claiming to be correct. It may be in the process of doing that (as I acknowledged, and dictionaries did as well), but that process is not yet at a stage where what I said stopped being correct.

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

rofl

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It really looks like you have a very shallow understanding of this game. You do realize that without raiding, crafting and gathering would be totally pointless, right?
Again, you do you remember what happened in 3.1, right? The raiding scene almost died, and the crafting and gathering scene died with it. Did you ever wonder why they decided to introduce the savage and, later, the ultimate difficulty?

Come on, it's not so hard.

But the point remains. Savage and ultimate content are the sole reason why a good chunk of the player base keep playing after reaching lvl 70. Pronoun choice is not.

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

rofl


First of all, I don't think I'm being any more "combative" or "disrespectful" than many, many others in this thread have been. Second of all, I'm not here to gain anyone's approval.

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You understand that that sort of attitude is why people don't agree with you. You present an idea that is unpopular and you become the anecdotal evidence that people use to frame people that have that same view as one from people who are unreasonable.

I really can't stand people who need to "identify" with their characters in MMOs. Get a grip and stop living vicariously. This is a fantasy setting with fantasy concepts, races and lore. This is a story that has little to do with real life. Stop trying to insert yourself, your political views and your personal crusades into it.

OP can identify however they want but their character, in this game, will be male or female. If needed, pick whichever gender identity offends you the least and move on.

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Right, you're just trying to change society by calling people uncultured and uncivilized.

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I'm not trying to "change" anything, that's ridiculously futile. I'm just giving my opinions, like just about everyone else here.

I must say though, you people do seem quick to make the (somewhat bizarre, imo) logical leap that just because I call something your native language does as silly, behind the times, and potentially harmful to a subset of people... that it must be some sort of personal affront against the native speakers of that language. I hear people remark about how stupid English is all the damn time and I don't get all uppity and offended over it. Most of the time I even agree with it.

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What I said is that you can use "gender" in any case you can use "sex", but it is not correct the other way around.

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It doesn't matter what way you spin it, here. It is not correct because they are not the same things.

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I'm not saying that what that person is saying won't be correct in a decade, two, five. I'm saying that it is NOT CORRECT NOW.

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It's correct now. The erroneous sources just need to update themselves.

Even if they don't, that doesn't stop what's correct from being correct.

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It really looks like you have a very shallow understanding of this game. You do realize that without raiding, crafting and gathering would be totally pointless, right?
Again, you do you remember what happened in 3.1, right? The raiding scene almost died, and the crafting and gathering scene died with it. Did you ever wonder why they decided to introduce the savage and, later, the ultimate difficulty?

Come on, it's not so hard.

But the point remains. Savage and ultimate content are the sole reason why a good chunk of the player base keep playing after reaching lvl 70.

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rofl

The game didn't change at all for me and my friends. It didn't change for most people playing the game. Life went on just fine and game didn't die regardless of whatever debacles were going on with Alexander, which I don't even know about because that's just how important they were.

To put it bluntly, you (raiders) aren't that important.

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Pronoun choice is not

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I was never trying to argue that it was.

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

It's correct now. The erroneous sources just need to update themselves.

Even if they don't, that doesn't stop what's correct from being correct.

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"it's correct because I say so and everyone who disagrees is wrong, once again, because I say so."

This is pure gold.

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Originally Posted by Sigma-Astra

Do you not realize...

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Yet you decided to be personally offended that I posted anything and when you added nothing to the conversation for that entire page of the thread. My point, since you didn't actually read it was that this thread is troll bait, and was definitely straying off topic into the typical trolling nonsense at the time I posted, so just skip or ignore the posters that aim to derail it.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

I realise people have strong opinions, but it still boggles me how spiteful some of these posts are.

Even if you disagree with the idea of it yourself, you can still respect that the other person truly thinks of themself as the gender they claim to be, and address them in the way they ask to be addressed.

I also find it very hard to believe that people would "choose" to identify in a way that opens them up to such abuse, if they didn't really believe it to be true.
...

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People are spiteful about this, because they go "oh no, real life politics in my entertainment, ew, get it away", despite all story telling is political by nature. Stories tell us about people who do bad or stupid things and how they became better people by realizing the err of their ways, or they go die on that hill as the big bad. Even a story where the protagonist ends up worse off in the end, doesn't come about without the protagonist learning to be better in some way. Everyone is the hero of their own story.

Gender neutral pronouns, or handling English dialog in such a way is not really that hard, and people who believe it's hard are just grumpy that they lose a way to tease people because now it's an insult to not consider the gender of the speaker as possibly being neutral or ambiguous. Think about how masculine and feminine behaviors are called out for being frivolously not-normal when done by someone who certainly does identify as one gender, it just happens to not be the gender they present as normally.

That's the entire thing about NB. It's less about mis-gendering like it would be for trans, and more about not assuming any specific gender in stories and conversations when none is necessary. It's a relatively recent thing, and there will be pushback because people think it's silly, until they get shouted down for not taking it seriously. It's also much less excusable, because singular 'they' has always been usable and is existing in English, and doesn't make conversations awkward unless the person is present, because then you should be using their name anyway.

From a gaming perspective, the easiest way to write dialog where the protagonist can be any gender is to use the gender neutral language by default, and never use a specific pronoun except where the speaker would never could never use it because they speak in a certain formal way (eg "My Lady", "Master <family name>", "Madam", "Sir") or diminutive way (-chan and -tan suffixes with all names, including themselves.) You often see this in subtitles in foreign language media where someone refers to themself by their own name/nickname instead of "I", where they really said it with diminutive gendered language. In that language it's supposed to come off as cute, but in English it is anything but.

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

I'm not trying to "change" anything, that's ridiculously futile. I'm just giving my opinions, like just about everyone else here.

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You're basically saying anyone with a different opinion from yours is ignorant, among other things. That pretty much seems like a "change or else you'll stay ignorant"

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

I must say though, you people do seem quick to make the (somewhat bizarre, imo) logical leap that just because I call something your native language does as silly, behind the times, and potentially harmful to a subset of people... that it must be some sort of personal affront against the native speakers of that language. I hear people remark about how stupid English is all the damn time and I don't get all uppity and offended over it. Most of the time I even agree with it.

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Mostly because a certain person seems to think that language is made by scholars in ivory towers, and not through natural evolution by the speaking masses. If you're saying that about a language, you're saying that about the language speakers, because they're the ones who make it.

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

It doesn't matter what way you spin it, here. It is not correct because they are not the same things.
It's correct now. The erroneous sources just need to update themselves.

Even if they don't, that doesn't stop what's correct from being correct.

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It doesn't matter what you think. Until the majority accepts it, it's not correct. Not because a minority wants it to be.

https://media.discordapp.net/attachm...254&height=301

rolling my eyes so hard right now.

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"it's correct because I say so and everyone who disagrees is wrong, once again, because I say so."

This is pure gold.

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Glad to see we agree.

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You're basically saying anyone with a different opinion from yours is ignorant, among other things. That pretty much seems like a "change or else you'll stay ignorant"

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The sex/gender thing isn't an opinion.

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Mostly because a certain person seems to think that language is made by scholars in ivory towers, and not through natural evolution by the speaking masses. If you're saying that about a language, you're saying that about the language speakers, because they're the ones who make it.

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No, most people do not "make" their language; they just imitate the work that others before them already did. (Some more poorly than others.)

Only a select few of them are influential enough (usually by pure chance) to effect change.

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It doesn't matter what you think. Until the majority accepts it, it's not correct. Not because a minority wants it to be.

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Sorry, that isn't how correct/incorrect works. Majority of the class getting the wrong answer doesn't suddenly make them right. Nice try though.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

Snip

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>Calls the thread troll bait
>Proceeds to defend the topic and blame it on the "mean majority"

So what does defending troll bait makes you?

Oh btw, story being political doesn't have anything to do with real life politics. We don't have wars with dragons in real life, and I certainly haven't seen any of the NPCs mentioning Trump. NB doesn't exist in the universe of the game.

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

The sex/gender thing isn't an opinion.

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The way you claim it works is. Post your proof, since it's your claim btw.

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

No, most people do not "make" their language; they just imitate the work that others before them already did. (Some more poorly than others.)

Only a select few of them are influential enough (usually by pure chance) to effect change.

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Sorry, but you have no clue of how language works. And I'm not saying that most people make their language, I'm saying the people as whole make it. Not because a small group decreed it to be so, and everyone else has to follow (which is what you're trying to push)

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

Sorry, that isn't how correct/incorrect works. Majority of the class getting the wrong answer doesn't suddenly make them right. Nice try though.

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6000+ years of recorded human history prove it right. Not going to change because a couple of groups on Tumblr decided they wanted it to change.

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

Sorry, that isn't how correct/incorrect works. Majority of the class getting the wrong answer doesn't suddenly make them right.

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If everyone is getting it wrong, the answer is changed so the majority are right, check out the current definition of 'literally' for a recent example.

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

Sorry, that isn't how correct/incorrect works. Majority of the class getting the wrong answer doesn't suddenly make them right. Nice try though.

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No, it's not how correct/incorrect works. But that IS how evolution works.

The definitions used by majority are the correct ones while the ones used by minority is at best a dialect, at worst an idiolect.

It seems you first need to learn what "language" is before you can actually discuss what use of a word is correct and what is not. Though language is not something determined by science, it IS a science in and off itself.

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The way you claim it works is. Post your proof, since it's your claim btw.

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http://lmgtfy.com/?q=what+is+the+dif...sex+and+gender

Educating you of something basic isn't my job. Do it yourself, or don't.

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And I'm not saying that most people make their language,

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If you're saying that about a language, you're saying that about the language speakers, because they're the ones who make it.

Pretty sure that is, indeed, what you said. Or are you just literally bending the rules of language while you're posting? That's some Forsaken-level stuff right there.

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6000+ years of recorded human history prove it right.

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Not really, no. Most of that history would have also told us the Earth was flat. It isn't indicative of anything really.

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Not going to change because a couple of groups on Tumblr decided they wanted it to change.

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It's funny that you're citing 6000 years of history as a source for your claim, yet apparently you think this is something that originated from Tumblr.

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If everyone is getting it wrong, the answer is changed so the majority are right, check out the current definition of 'literally' for a recent example.

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Literally still has the same meaning. All it's gained is an incorrect usage common enough to the point of being memetic, much like things like "I could care less" or "for all intensive purposes", which are also still incorrect no matter how common they have become to say.

I'm all for more options (and I truly don't care as far as this topic goes), if it were to happen, whatever, but...it is highly unnecessary. Seriously. I have a couple friends (family or otherwise) that are part of the LGBT community, and I respect everyone's right for self expression. I just don't see this as necessary at all. What would it accomplish exactly? There are far more pressing matters as far as this game is concerned.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

Gamers are sociopaths when it comes to treating people with respect, so just remember that any perceived slight at this suggestion is because they have a closed or empty mind.

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So...you just insulted and generalized millions of people around the world, including yourself since you play games too....then claim other people are the ones with closed minds???? Really??

Insulting just the people on the forums like you usually do isn't enough for you, you have to go all out and worldwide?

No one even has to respond to anything you say really, you just discredit and defeat yourself on your own.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

My point, since you didn't actually read it was that this thread is troll bait, and was definitely straying off topic into the typical trolling nonsense at the time I posted

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I personally don't care where the thread was going or is going, troll bait or not, that doesn't excuse you to insult and generalize millions of people?? Hello?? Like, where has the common sense gone???

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

Yet you decided to be personally offended

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FYI Kisai, people don't have to be "personally offended" to call out someone's ridiculous statements and bad behavior.

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=what+is+the+dif...sex+and+gender

Educating you of something basic isn't my job. Do it yourself, or don't.

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If you can't back up your claims, then don't make them. I don't have to prove your claims for you.

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

If you're saying that about a language, you're saying that about the language speakers, because they're the ones who make it.

Pretty sure that is, indeed, what you said. Or are you just literally bending the rules of language while you're posting? That's some Forsaken-level stuff right there.

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No, I did. You're the one who claimed I said that each person makes their language:

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

most people do not "make" their language

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

Not really, no. Most of that history would have also told us the Earth was flat. It isn't indicative of anything really.

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Which was overturned by scientific observation and experimentation. Where the scientific proof that sex =/= gender?

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

It's funny that you're citing 6000 years of history as a source for your claim, yet apparently you think this is something that originated from Tumblr.

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It's funny that you either have reading comprehension issues, or are trying to ineffectively twist my post. 6000+ years of human history say sex =/= gender. Tumblr says you can be a otherkin, like furniturekin

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

Literally still has the same meaning.

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It also has an additional meaning.

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If you can't back up your claims, then don't make them. I don't have to prove your claims for you.

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I'll keep saying what I want, thanks. You don't have to prove them, because 1) it's already been done, and 2) I don't care if you remain ignorant :rolleyes:

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Where the scientific proof that sex =/= gender?

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Just about every trans person in existence serves as proof, and there are a lot of them. If you wanna go be a bigot to their faces, hell, I won't stop ya. Karma has a way of paying back its debts in the end.

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It's funny that you either have reading comprehension issues, or are trying to ineffectively twist my post. 6000+ years of human history say sex =/= gender. Tumblr says you can be a otherkin, like furniturekin

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It's good to know that Tumblr is apparently where all your research on the matter comes from. No wonder you think it's a joke.

Your 6000 years of human history don't really account for squat. We're in the 21th century now; try joining us.

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It also has an additional meaning.

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Nope. Bunch of people using it wrong does not mean it's gained another meaning; it means it's gained a bunch of idiots who literally cannot use literally correctly.

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

I'll keep saying what I want, thanks. You don't have to prove them, because 1) it's already been done, and 2) I don't care if you remain ignorant :rolleyes:

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Just saying, your arguments don't hold water and only speak from authority when you say I don't have to give anything to back up my claims, it is what it is and you just take what I say as right. You don't win arguments this way and it just makes you look bad. Just some Debating 101.

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

It doesn't matter what way you spin it, here. It is not correct because they are not the same things.

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According to the Merriam's dictionary and a thesaurus they basically are.

In the dictionary "gender" means "the state of being male or female" and under synonyms "sex" is the first one listed. The first synonymy for "sex" is "gender" not all that surprising right? Just in case anyone is confused "synonym" means "the same or nearly the same meaning". A thesaurus and the Merriam's dictionary are both extremely credible sources for definitions for the American English language.

Tl;dr "sex" and "gender" are interchangeable.

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just about every trans person in existence serves as proof

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That's not credible (or proof at all) proof that sex and gender are completely different.

This thread is stupid /end thread

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According to the Merriam's dictionary and a thesaurus they basically are.

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Then they are wrong. Believe it or not, they are wrong sometimes.

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Tl;dr "sex" and "gender" are interchangeable.

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Nope.

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That's not credible (or proof at all) proof that sex and gender are completely different.

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Except it is? That's literally what defines a trans person, unless you're just trying to plug your ears and shut your eyes and pretend they don't exist.


EDIT: Woot, daily limit has been reached. Good night everyone!

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If you aren't here to try to persuade people to see things from your perspective why are you posting in this thread?

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Simple, because people are being wrong on the internet(!) and I usually feel compelled to speak up when that happens. It's not up to me to get people to listen. I've found that people will usually believe whatever they want.

It's also been quite enlightening to see how progressive (or lack thereof. regressive?) some folks here are.

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You don't seem to be enjoying yourself.

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Oh, I am, though. I wouldn't still be here if I wasn't.

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Except it isn't. That's not what "defines" a trans person and saying sex and gender are interchangeable doesn't deny that they exist nor their struggles.

Sex and gender being interchangeable doesn't mean you have to be mean to a trans person. Every non tumblr trans person I met acknowledges and knows they're the same thing but it doesn't stop how their brain works and that's fine.

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Insisting that sex is the same as gender is the equivalent of telling a trans person they cannot exist, because for them it is not the same. You must be operating on some pretty strange logic if you think that isn't a mean judgment to make of another person.


Every trans person I've ever met would not say they are the same, because that is exactly why they identify as trans in the first place.

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Yep, it now has two meanings, it happens, words change and evolve. For yet another example see how gender and sex have gone from being interchangeable terms to being distinct terms with separate meanings...

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No, it doesn't. People using words wrong does not change their meaning, end of story.


Likewise, sex and gender never were interchangeable. It's only been done (and is still done) because of ignorance as to their meaning.

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

I'll keep saying what I want, thanks. You don't have to prove them, because 1) it's already been done, and 2) I don't care if you remain ignorant :rolleyes:

Just about every trans person in existence serves as proof, and there are a lot of them. If you wanna go be a bigot to their faces, hell, I won't stop ya. Karma has a way of paying back its debts in the end.

It's good to know that Tumblr is apparently where all your research on the matter comes from. No wonder you think it's a joke.

Your 6000 years of human history don't really account for squat. We're in the 21th century now; try joining us.





Nope. Bunch of people using it wrong does not mean it's gained another meaning; it means it's gained a bunch of idiots who literally cannot use literally correctly.

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If you aren't here to try to persuade people to see things from your perspective why are you posting in this thread? You don't seem to be enjoying yourself.

I'm personally rather opposed to a lot of this far left ideology but I know several people who prefer they pronouns and they approached me respectfully about using them so I do. I slip up sometimes and apologize, in my head they are all still clearly women, but I attempt to humor them because it's polite.

You literally can't even garner that level of support with this kind of combative, argumentative posting. Chill out.

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

Then they are wrong. Believe it or not, they are wrong sometimes.

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Where is your credible source/proof that they are wrong? The dictionary does update and change, that is true but they haven't budged on that yet because there's no science that suggests we need to change it because it's....hold on......correct.

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Nope.

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Double nope, because in the American English language, they are. ;)

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Except it is? That's literally what defines a trans person, unless you're just trying to plug your ears and shut your eyes and pretend they don't exist.

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Except it isn't. That's not what "defines" a trans person and saying sex and gender are interchangeable doesn't deny that they exist nor their struggles.

Sex and gender being interchangeable doesn't mean you have to be mean to a trans person. Every non tumblr trans person I met acknowledges and knows they're the same thing but it doesn't stop how their brain works and that's fine.

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Insisting that sex is the same as gender is the equivalent of telling a trans person they cannot exist

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Oh but it's not, because there's plenty of trans people that agree they are the same thing yet don't feel it's threatening their existence. Because their condition still exists and it doesn't change the fact they feel like the other sex.

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People using words wrong does not change their meaning, end of story.

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...I feel like this should be said to you? You're literally saying the freaking dictionary is wrong, a thesaurus is wrong, and everything we use as a credible source for the US English language is wrong while providing zero proof/sources...

No matter how many times you say something is wrong and use the words wrong it does not change their meaning, end of story.

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

Then they are wrong. Believe it or not, they are wrong sometimes.


Nope.


Except it is? That's literally what defines a trans person, unless you're just trying to plug your ears and shut your eyes and pretend they don't exist.

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"This information differs from my opinion so that means it's wrong. I don't have to provide sources or evidence to any of my points though because my opinion is fact."

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

Nope. Bunch of people using it wrong does not mean it's gained another meaning; it means it's gained a bunch of idiots who literally cannot use literally correctly.

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Yep, it now has two meanings, it happens, words change and evolve. etc. etc.

Like what happened to gender, how it used to be interchangeable with sex, but now is mostly used to refer to cultural and social differences rather than biological ones.

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Originally Posted by Paladinleeds

I would go so far as to add a gender neutral toggle in character creation (or perhaps a separate character creation option to select your pronoun).

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In a game whose developers can't even give equal treatment to the two main genders which it does support, because making gear to fit both is apparently just too much effort to be worthwhile, I'm pretty sure we're not going to see a third character model option for each tribe of each race. People are still going to have to pick which gender's character model they're going to use, and they're still going to be limited to the gear, hairstyles, poses, and emotes available to that character model.

At most, if this suggestion were implemented, it would be limited to dialog and titles.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

I'm wondering what words you want used instead of "he" and "she". "They" could be used but ...

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The request wasn't for non-gendered NPCs to be in the story. It was for the ability to make our own player character be non-binary. When NPCs are talking to the player character, the pronoun used for that player character is neither "he" nor "she". It's "you". That word isn't gendered in any of the game's four supported languages, so pronouns are really not the main issue here (though of course they often are in real life, which is probably why they're what came to mind and spawned a whole sub-discussion here about pronouns).

The gendered terms the game would need to adapt are things like lad / lass / ?, and lady / lord / ?, and probably a couple dozen or so other pairs that would need to be turned into trios of terms and phrases.

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Originally Posted by Solarra

Regarding 'they' being confusing, it really isn't; there are occasions in normal conversation where you will use it, probably without thinking or noticing.

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While a bit of a tangent to the suggestion (which as I said above, doesn't really involve pronouns), I did want to mention something about this. Certainly the word "they" can be and quite often is used clearly and unambiguously to refer to one person, but that's different than being able to just substitute it in wherever "he" or "she" is used.

At a rough approximation, I'd guess around 3/4 of the places a singular third person pronoun is used, the word "they" can be simply substituted without changing the meaning of the sentence. Another 20% or so can be reworded enough to make it clear. And then there's the other 5% of the time that it can be really difficult to come up with a clear non gendered way of phrasing what you want to say without the phrasing getting really awkward just to avoid gendered pronouns. Nobody is claiming that it can never work, just that it isn't a global panacea to the problem.

In order for pronouns to make sense, it needs to be clear who or what they're referring to. The gender of the pronoun often gives a clue to what its antecedent is, and in some cases even changes whether there needs to be an antecedent or not. A sentence like "they should do <xyz>" is quite often just a way of saying "<xyz> should be done", with the term "they" just representing a vague sense of "whoever does such things" rather than representing a particular person or people who were under discussion. "He" and "she" are not only different by being singular. They're also different by being clearly specific.



(EDIT: Wow, this thread got long fast. I'd read through the first page (at a 40 post per page setting) to then see this response end up on page 6. I probably won't read all the intervening posts, though I may skim through a bit.)

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

Then they are wrong. Believe it or not, they are wrong sometimes.

Nope.

Except it is? That's literally what defines a trans person, unless you're just trying to plug your ears and shut your eyes and pretend they don't exist.


EDIT: Woot, daily limit has been reached. Good night everyone!


Simple, because people are being wrong on the internet(!) and I usually feel compelled to speak up when that happens. It's not up to me to get people to listen. I've found that people will usually believe whatever they want.

It's also been quite enlightening to see how progressive (or lack thereof. regressive?) some folks here are.


Oh, I am, though. I wouldn't still be here if I wasn't.





Insisting that sex is the same as gender is the equivalent of telling a trans person they cannot exist, because for them it is not the same. You must be operating on some pretty strange logic if you think that isn't a mean judgment to make of another person.


Every trans person I've ever met would not say they are the same, because that is exactly why they identify as trans in the first place.





No, it doesn't. People using words wrong does not change their meaning, end of story.


Likewise, sex and gender never were interchangeable. It's only been done (and is still done) because of ignorance as to their meaning.

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This is a lot of inflated ego and words for a simple and classic "No you." response.