Character Creation Has A Race Problem

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Anarnee

[-Being technical-]There are no African Roegadyn, there are no African Hyur, there are no African miqote.

---

http://imgur.com/8ZVQcEC.jpg
http://imgur.com/f3KNGYO.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/wodt46q.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/5usKiCV.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/yBxU8I3.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/p4iXFau.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/X27B4qP.jpg

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Melichoir

Except a peculiar issue:

No one had mentioned much about this till 'now'. Something you stated. Which likely means : People didnt care about it till people were made to care about it.

That is no one cared about this and gave it no thought because they didnt see it as an issue that affected them, until someone said "Oh hey, not enough racial features I want to see!" Then it became an issue. And its not like we dont have black, or white, or hispanic, or asian, or etc people playing this game. So obviously someone shouldve mentioned it well before now. But I half expect someone to deflect by saying "They werent being given the chance cause...reasons."

But hey, if you think the game has an issue, go ahead and bring it up. But if you really are a person of principle, then I say this: Say something, and when the devs dont do anything, unsub. Afterall, why pay for a game that doesnt represent you to the T.

---

Except it was literally the first thing I noticed when I first played XIV back in beta. Just because no one brought it up til now doesn't mean it was never an issue or that it wasn't noticed.

Also if I cut out everything that I enjoy because there were ignorant or harmful things in them, there would literally be nothing left. Everything nowadays can have something wrong with it because there is still TONS of bias out there. I can enjoy things and also acknowledge that sometimes they aren't perfect. Then I talk about those things, and how they could be better.

I play this MMO because I have a lovely group of friends who I play it with and who don't play anything else, and I still very much enjoy the story and a lot of the fights. But when I notice things that I know aren't good, I still acknowledge them. I still enjoy everything else, I just don't ignore harmful things just so it's more convenient for my personal comfort.

As for why I or anyone else didn't bring it up sooner... *looks back at all the replies that amount to "OMG EVERYONE OFFENDED OVER NOTHING NOWADAYS JUST SHUT UP OR UNSUB LOL"*

...gee, I wonder why anyone would be hesitant about bringing it up on the internet of all places. I couldn't even imagine why.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Theodric

Please elaborate, I'll admit to not catching your meaning with that statement. It is pretty late for me right now though.

---

I sort of took offense to your post when I thought of how much you protest for male glamours and treatment. Then you go post... everything you just said about a cause(this) different from the one you care about.

In other words, I can say everything you just said about male equality, LGBT equality, and European treatment.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tsumdere

You can make beautiful dark skinned people from almost all the races in this game. Different faces have different structures, just like there is one Miqo'te face that has full lips that is very nice.

---

Yep, I used that set. I'm extremely happy with how my character turned out. In a sea of pasty white catgirls, I've got a tabby cat with serious tortitude.

https://i.imgur.com/mr77pSr.png

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wiccan026

Even if it's not being done directly, it's being done indirectly... the words you use someone can easily misread if that's not your intent to take it in that matter.

I keep checking back and I've never seen folks reply to the ones who've posted pictures from character creation... not to mention that the OP still implies has incorrect information in it implying why the character creator is wrong.

---

If you're intentionally misreading "hey this thing might be kinda racist, maybe we could talk about it instead of ignoring it" as calling SE a villain, that's on you for misreading anything that just brings up racism as some kind of personal attack on one's character and not just a discussion of racism existing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Magic-Mal

-snip-

---

I'm not taking an issue with the suggestion itself. My issue is with the way that is being framed. If FFXIV did not have any option for darker skin tones, then the weight of the argument for representation would be much heftier. As it stands, though, there are options in-game to allow for people to design a character to their personal tastes.

Where, exactly, do we draw the line? New hairstyles are added with every major patch, so there's always a chance that at least one of them will be to someone's personal tastes eventually.

The developers may or may not add more 'ethnic' hairstyles in time. We'll have to wait and see. Even if they don't, though, some do exist so it's not like they're completely ignoring them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Theodric

I'm not taking an issue with the suggestion itself. My issue is with the way that is being framed. If FFXIV did not have any option for darker skin tones, then the weight of the argument for representation would be much heftier. As it stands, though, there are options in-game to allow for people to design a character to their personal tastes.

Where, exactly, do we draw the line? New hairstyles are added with every major patch, so there's always a chance that at least one of them will be to someone's personal tastes eventually.

The developers may or may not add more 'ethnic' hairstyles in time. We'll have to wait and see. Even if they don't, though, some do exist so it's not like they're completely ignoring them.

---

Just like how there are masculine options and that they add more glamours every patch. And even if they don't add anymore and everything from this point on is female-only, at least some options still exist so they're not completely ignoring males. So it's okay. No need to yell for more.

Do you understand what is wrong now?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Magic-Mal

-snip-

---

Again, I'm not saying that more options shouldn't be added. I'm suggesting that people should temper their expectations and recognise that this is simply a reflection of Japanese cultural trends. I've never suggested that the character creation should not be updated. I'm merely taking issue with the water being muddied by implications of racism being at play.

Awesome Troll

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nandina

but if the nose and lips are slim and thin, is it really a black person? No.

---

You bring up an interesting topic, thank you.

However have you considered that this is a fantasy world where Africa does not exist. These people are:
Elezen.
Hyur.
Lalafell.
Miqo'te.
Roegadyn.
Au Ra.

You are right that a light skinned person with caucasian features can create a close approximation to their own appearance...
If you're looking for a character creator with many many options try Black Desert Online.

The art style here is based on anime tropes and the art of Yoshitaka Amano. African's are not commonly seen in Anime and when they are their drawn representation can appear a bit racist.

If you don't want to look like a little light skinned anime babe then make a Roegadyn or an Au Ra with some wild skin color. Create something that isn't commonly seen if you want to express your personal diversity. Create diversity in the world of Hydaelyn.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Theodric

You can't claim that this is about 'fairness' when you've called for the game not to be released outside of Japan because it doesn't bend over backwards to give you exactly what you want. Multiple players have given you advice in regards to designing a character to your specifications and whenever it is pointed out you seem to immediately move the goalposts elsewhere.

---

You’re stretching the truth a bit. That’s not me campaigning for the game to be removed from everywhere but Japan because I have a problem with the options. Read that dialogue back. If I released a product outside of the US, I’m not going to say that people elsewhere have no right to critique my product despite the fact I’m advertising to them. Critique comes with the territory. Criticism leads to improvement. People leave product reviews all the time. KaivaC said that it being a Japanese MMO makes the discussion a moot point, which I disagreed with. It being a Japanese MMO doesn’t immunize FFXIV from the critique of those outside Japan when it’s being marketed outside its home country. To say otherwise is ridiculous. Clearly they care about the audience outside of it to some extent. I know for certain if I didn’t care about a demographic outside of my country I wouldn’t bother with a western localization team. I know I wouldn’t bother putting any other language forum besides Japanese on my website. I wouldn’t plaster advertisements on non-Japanese websites. I wouldn’t plaster it on the foreign equivalent of the Playstation Store. There’s plenty of Japanese games that don’t get released outside of Japan. I wouldn’t critique character customization on those games being limited because it’s not being marketed towards me. Therefor if SE has a problem with foreign critique on their product, then again common sense dictates that they not release the product outside of Japan.

The issues I've discussed have been the same issues from the beginning of the thread. Lack of hair styles, off skin color, and lack of differing facial types. Noticed I actually stopped talking about facial types for the most part (unless someone responded to me when I mentioned it) as they explained why it would've been harder because software has to be written (in other words laziness). The comment has been made by others that because it's a Japanese MMO, they cater to Japan and only keep Japan in mind when making decisions. And being that I'm paying money, I'm free to criticize. That's fair. Point blank, period. Have you ever thought that maybe the suggestions people were making didn't either address my problem accurately? Telling me to make another playable race, when I'm talking about Hyurs specifically is not very good advice and isn't staying on topic. I'm not critiquing the options for Roegadyns. That's basically telling me to avoid the issue altogether by picking something else. Micropanther7 told me about the reshader and I asked further questions, and they responded. I don’t play on PC, so I can’t utilize this option and I’m not buying the game a second time to do so. I’m not opposed to advice that’s applicable.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KaivaC

Why you want me to address this with you, when you were not even directly involved in that conversation that I was having with them, I don't know. If I have an opinion to give about a subject or a person, I will state it - I very rarely sugarcoat anything on the forums.

Honestly, with the way your going on about underrepresentation, this feels so much like you're wanting to be offended by something.


Neither are Hyurs, if you really want to be technical about it. Dunno why you cherry picked me and singled out Roes, but it's whatever. I'll repeat this again - I've managed to do it with BOTH and Hyur and a Hellsguard Roe with the default 3.55 character creation before ultimately settling on Au RA.

---

You quoted me, and said that it invited me to criticism, so I clarified why I said what I said. Regardless of who you’re talking to, when my name is mentioned, I’m going to respond if I feel the need. Everyone else has been hopping into other people’s conversations and no one complained about that. You’re posting on a public forum. If you didn’t want me or anyone else interjecting then should’ve contacted Magic-Mal personally. It’s not about being offended, I can’t be offended by what’s not there. So again, you’re gaslighting me by constantly suggesting I’m offended. Hypothetically, if I was offended, it still doesn’t invalidate anything I’ve stated. I’m not cherry picking you, I have tried my best to respond to everyone that I could (and I’m sure I missed some). You literally said:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KaivaC

The thing is, you say you want to hit at least hit the dart board... But you can. Hyur and Roes can... I've done it before I settled on Au Ra.

---

So I responded to that and disagreed. What I’m guessing the issue is here, is that many don’t fully understand what an undertone is, and that’s leading to the discrepancy. It’s coming across as though many feel that undertone and skin color are the same thing, and it’s not. Two people can have the same base skin color, but different undertones. If people don’t know what an undertone is, then they should research it or ask. I would’ve gladly explained. Many have brought up and agreed with the limitations of the character customization system, but when I’m more specific instead of being broad, that’s the issue apparently. So again, I have to sugarcoat. Is it saying that the game mainly offers a white aesthetic what shattered everyone’s world? So I have to be ultra PC and color blind now? If the situation was reversed, and someone said that the game mainly catered to black or biracial people, I would not be offended. My skin isn’t paper thin like that. I would either agree or disagree, but I wouldn’t start claiming the person is starting a race war. Going to that extent is a huge exaggeration, and saying otherwise is a reach. Nor would I use it being a fantasy world as an excuse. If anything, it being a fantasy world that’s still being developed allows room for the changes. We saw Yugiri and had the ninja job long before we saw Doma. Meaning SE could release these features and not even explain them for years into the future.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Joven

Again it ultimately comes down to what SE wants to put in THEIR game whether you like it or not. And at no point have I seen anyone on here justifying SE's decisions, just pointing out that you have options. Also, maybe try not insulting people, it makes you seem arrogant and cheapens whatever argument you may have.

---

When I say justifying SE’s decisions, I’m not talking about just this thread alone, which is why I made sure to say the forum. Again, it can be THEIR game but I have the right to criticize like everyone else when I’m spending MY money whether you like it or not, or am I only allowed to criticize aspects of the game the community deems acceptable, in a very specific way? But I can’t help but notice you are doing just that, justifying that SE can do what it wants because it’s their game, which is an easy cop out. While I agree with that, the people using the weak “this is fantasy and not real life” tried better than that. Your response doesn’t add to the discussion at all.

If people are being manipulative and gaslighting, and claiming that I’m saying the game is racist, which was never the argument; or that I want a character that looks exactly like me, which again was never the argument, then I’m going to go in and let have. I’m not going to keep clarifying the same point a hundred times. I’m not about to sit around and let people put words in my mouth. I’m not going to let people claim that I’m trying to start a race war, when I’m not. Notice I haven’t been short-tempered with you or other people, just certain individuals because they kept deflecting. Everyone who is a member of this forum could use those same petty tactics against me, and I’m still not backing down.

It doesn’t matter if me insulting a select few people cheapens my argument against them, because their comments largely were irrelevant. Claiming I’m crying racism when I wasn’t cheapens their arguments. You have Vidu who doesn’t really care about the topic and has admitted it themselves, but yet chooses to vehemently comment. You have others mentioning Roegadyn, Au’Ra, and Miqo’te as if they have a point when the discussion is Hyurs. I wouldn’t discuss carpentry when everyone else is talking about sewing, and I wouldn’t say that the wooden tables available come in a brown hue when someone mentions that their thread doesn’t have that same color available.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

No, Tumblr just over-exaggerates or creates problems where there isn't one. You fall into that category, especially how you've taken it upon yourself to speak on behalf of everyone. Who made you the arbiter of race and supposed inclusivity? FFXIV has no inclusivity problem. You're simply looking to be offended, and speaking over other non-people who have also disagreed with you.

Apparently, you have a low tolerance for BS... yet you made this thread. Suppose you never said hypocritical BS.

---

And who exactly gave you the authority to determine that others don’t have a problem simply because you don’t? Who gave you the authority to speak for others and to determine that FFXIV doesn’t have an inclusivity issue? Seems like you’re speaking over people.There were others in the thread who agreed with me, and you’re trying to erase that fact. There are people I know IRL who agree with me. Just because you and ten others, disagree with me, doesn’t mean that my point is BS. Just because you personally haven’t seen it mentioned before now doesn’t mean the thread is BS. So you’re looking mighty hypocritical over there yourself. You’re speaking over me by declaring my intent with this thread was to be offended, when instead it was to get added customization. Because at the end of the day, that’s what it really boiled down to. And evidently there is an inclusivity issue amongst a few members of the community given yours and other’s tired responses. I didn’t speak on the behalf of everyone, just a certain demographic of the player base who would in fact like these options. What I eat, doesn’t make you shit. Some women don’t like wearing dresses, but I’m not going to go out of my way to counter why they shouldn’t have pants, when I still have access to dresses. Why? Because it doesn’t affect me. I’m also not going to tell her that she’s speaking on behalf of all women, and she’s creating a non issue, when clearly the issue is that women don’t have the option to wear pants. What do you personally lose out of players having the option to have more skin options? What do you personally lose out of Hyurs having added nose and mouth options that are fuller and broader?

Because some black people partially disagreed with me, doesn’t mean I have no point. Just because others, regardless of ethnicity, disagree with me doesn’t mean I have to concede. Hell, historically the Western world thought the Earth was flat at one point, and to say otherwise was punishable by death. That did not stop Copernicus from being correct in stating it was round, and the ignorant masses from being wrong. In other words, I don’t have to agree or follow along with the majority of people on this thread. My point isn’t validated by likes, or invalidated by dislikes. You’re mad because I’m not acquiescing to the status-quo. You’re mad because I’m unapologetically shaking the table. I wouldn’t care if every member of the forum swooped in against me, I’m going to stand by what I said.

And did you really call us non-people? So if we’re not people, what are we?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tsumdere

.

---

I didn’t ignore your post, I quoted from that exact post where you posted the picture. Saying that either of our foundation colors aren’t there doesn’t justify why they can’t be added in, and it doesn’t explain why they aren’t. It also doesn’t justify why the blocks on the color grid are identical. It doesn’t negate my initial point or my response to you. The picture you posted was a darker Hyur with a red undertone (I already said the red undertone was there), and that wasn’t anyone’s kinky/curly hair. Just because you feel that there are a good variety of skin tones, doesn’t mean I have to feel the same way as you. So just because you’re cold, that means I’m not hot? That’s your opinion and I’m not obligated to share it. Your choice to not ask for Asian skin tones that match you, has nothing to do with me asking for more varied shades of brown. No one is saying that’s a grave social injustice. No one is saying not having a wider array of skin tones is a civil rights issue. It’s not my fault that there were very few options for other phenotypes on the Hyur. I just happened to point out that imbalance. If there was not a discrepancy to begin with, people wouldn’t ask for other hair options and facial features.

You’re arguing semantics. You all are hyper sensitive and stuck on the word race, and the fact I used real life as examples of the type of phenotypes I’m speaking of. There’s nothing wrong with mentioning black people; there’s nothing wrong with mentioning white people. It’s reality and a much more simpler way to articulate what I was referring to because everyone knows what a black and white person look like when they log off. As I get older, I see why Squidward had very low tolerance for Patrick, because explaining a simple easily understood concept to you and a few others is just as mind numbing. Saying “Character Creation Has A Race Problem” stands, because the specific race (Hyur) has limited customization. Limited customization being the problem. Therefor Character Customization Has A Race Problem. Even If I titled the thread “Problem With Limited Hyur Customization”, it wouldn’t have changed the point. Again, there’s mention of tumblr as if mentioning it adds weight to your argument, but you and a few others are clearly the ones who desperately need a trigger warning.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by wondergroove

Except it was literally the first thing I noticed when I first played XIV back in beta. Just because no one brought it up til now doesn't mean it was never an issue or that it wasn't noticed.

---

And yet, youre still here, still playing, and only chiming in about ti right now. So either your full of it, its not that big an issue to you, or youre either too lazy or cowardly to speak your mind about issues you deem worth discussing until someone else does. Give as much gunk to the Op as people would like, at least they made a thread and took teh risk of putting their thoughts out there.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by wondergroove

Also if I cut out everything that I enjoy because there were ignorant or harmful things in them, there would literally be nothing left. Everything nowadays can have something wrong with it because there is still TONS of bias out there. I can enjoy things and also acknowledge that sometimes they aren't perfect. Then I talk about those things, and how they could be better.

---

This comes off as "Well, yeah its bad and bothers me, but not enough that Ill stop playing!"

Youre making a personal value judgement: The short comings of this game and your feelings about said subject are less important than you being entertained. Ill tell ya something, no matter how fun a game is, if there is an overt racist message from the creators, Im not going to be playing that game.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by wondergroove

I play this MMO because I have a lovely group of friends who I play it with and who don't play anything else, and I still very much enjoy the story and a lot of the fights. But when I notice things that I know aren't good, I still acknowledge them. I still enjoy everything else, I just don't ignore harmful things just so it's more convenient for my personal comfort.

---

Again, youre doing cost analysis here: What must you put up with to reap a particular reward. You are literally saying "This thing that bothers me is less important than these other things." The catch with these kind of stances is teh same problem the OP has: they ignore it when it serves them, but run to the forums and talk about what a travesty it is. If the issue is that important, stop playing the game. Stick to your beliefs and dont compromise them if they mean that much to you. If you have the luxury to put your beliefs on silence when it suits you, then those beliefs arent important.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by wondergroove

As for why I or anyone else didn't bring it up sooner... *looks back at all the replies that amount to "OMG EVERYONE OFFENDED OVER NOTHING NOWADAYS JUST SHUT UP OR UNSUB LOL"

...gee, I wonder why anyone would be hesitant about bringing it up on the internet of all places. I couldn't even imagine why.

---

And there it is: the "But I half expect someone to deflect by saying 'They werent being given the chance cause...reasons.'"

Yeah, there are people who say things like that. There are also people who give nuanced answers. Thats part of public discussions. You either accept that facet or forfeit your right to have a public opinion. No one is stopping you or anyone from voicing their concerns and points, but dont expect everyone to just agree either. If you post an opinion, expect people to disagree and pick your opinion apart. You dont like that? Then dont share your opinions. These forums, btw, do a pretty good job at counteracting heckler's veto. And a lot of responses have been meaningful here. But sure, characterize it all as "OMG EVERYONE OFFENDED!" as a reason why this issue has been a non issue for so long.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by PaulCotton

You bring up an interesting topic, thank you.

However have you considered that this is a fantasy world where Africa does not exist. These people are:
Elezen.
Hyur.
Lalafell.
Miqo'te.
Roegadyn.
Au Ra.

You are right that a light skinned person with caucasian features can create a close approximation to their own appearance...
If you're looking for a character creator with many many options try Black Desert Online.

The art style here is based on anime tropes and the art of Yoshitaka Amano. African's are not commonly seen in Anime and when they are their drawn representation can appear a bit racist.

If you don't want to look like a little light skinned anime babe then make a Roegadyn or an Au Ra with some wild skin color. Create something that isn't commonly seen if you want to express your personal diversity. Create diversity in the world of Hydaelyn.

---

I was actually a brown skinned Au Ra at one point when I first started Heavensward is the ironic thing. I like to switch it up periodically. I never attempted to make a Hyur before so wasn't aware of the limitations until now.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by PaulCotton

You bring up an interesting topic, thank you.

However have you considered that this is a fantasy world where Africa does not exist. These people are:
Elezen.
Hyur.
Lalafell.
Miqo'te.
Roegadyn.
Au Ra.

You are right that a light skinned person with caucasian features can create a close approximation to their own appearance...
If you're looking for a character creator with many many options try Black Desert Online.

The art style here is based on anime tropes and the art of Yoshitaka Amano. African's are not commonly seen in Anime and when they are their drawn representation can appear a bit racist.

If you don't want to look like a little light skinned anime babe then make a Roegadyn or an Au Ra with some while skin color. Create something that isn't commonly seen if you want to express your personal diversity. Create diversity in the world.

---

Except that people who aren't white shouldn't HAVE to choose non-human races to feel like they're being represented. Because being shoe-horned into a non-human race because it's literally the only option that shares your physical traits isn't at all "dehumanizing", right?

Also, Hyur are Human's. You can argue over the name all you like, but that's what they are and were designed to represent. Pretty much every fantasy game allows you to choose a human character if given the option, because 1) sometimes people want to play as something more familiar and 2) sometimes people like to see themselves as the protagonist. If there is an option to be a human character with caucasian features, there is no reasonable excuse as to why there shouldn't be options to play as ANY kind of human.

Humans exist in the real world, and have been added to fantasy games as a choice to make the characters more relatable. If they're only relatable to a small amount of all humans, then something is wrong here.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nandina

-snip-

---

1. You did not quote from the original post I put the screenshot in.

2. It was direct proof there is black features in this game (which was an argument of yours, don't say it wasn't), nothing to do with skintone.

3. Lol. You directly edited Bourne_Endevor's quote from "non-white" to "non-people".

Edit :

4. You changed your post to quote my screenshot post once you were called out for ignoring me. I see you and I know other people do too.

You are troll and/or purposefully inflammatory. I was giving it the benefit of the doubt because I have genuinely known people like you in real life, but quote editing sealed the deal. Anyone else can talk to me about the issues since I think the representation of minorities in video games is a fascinating topic that deserves to be discussed (wrote many an essay on the portrayal of women and ethnic minorities in horror/video games), but not particularly interested in someone who cherry picks. Goodbye.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by wondergroove

I never said it was malicious or even intentional. It doesn't have to be either to be wrong or worth criticizing, though, tbh.

I'm already aware of that this is a Japanese game and of the... uh, difficulties that Japan has with representation. Anime is already a great example of that. I'm not examining this through a "Western" lens; I'm looking through the lens of "human beings are extremely diverse and maybe art should be representative of that."

I understand the "reasoning" behind it. It doesn't make it any less of an issue, worth talking about, or something people should just blow over because everything else is just as bad. Ignorance isn't a good excuse for putting barely any effort into being respectfully diverse.

So yeah, I am going to ignore the reasons behind this particular lack of representation. I was aware of them before, I know them again now, and they're still not "good" enough to justify it.

---

I've said this before earlier in this post: works of fiction do not need to be diverse or represent anyone, respectfully or otherwise. it's solely at the descretion of the creator. I don't say this as someone who's white, I say this as someone who doesn't feel like I need to be "represented" in anything. If this game only had characters who were of African decent, if all characters were female or completely non-human I'd still play it as long as it looked interesting. My identity isn't my skin color or facial features.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tsumdere

1. You did not quote from the original post I put the screenshot in.

2. It was direct proof there is black features in this game (which was an argument of yours, don't say it wasn't), nothing to do with skintone.

3. Lol. You directly edited Bourne_Endevor's quote from "non-white" to "non-people".

You are troll and/or purposefully inflammatory. Goodbye.

---

https://i.imgur.com/sFfpBqQ.png

How am I trolling again? I knew someone would attempt to say that, which is why I screenshot it.

Have not read the thread, but the true issue with the character creator is the lack of body hair.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nandina

https://i.imgur.com/sFfpBqQ.png

How am I trolling again? I knew someone would attempt to say that, which is why I screenshot it.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tsumdere

Well aren't you rude. I was just poking in jest, but ya really gotta insinuate we're stupid and you're not.

Most people are on board with wanting more natural and wavy hair. That would be really nice. Almost all of my characters are black and I would kill for some curls to go with them. But, you made it into some sort of weird pseudo-race war thing. That's where you've lost people, including myself.

Don't get pissy when a single fictional race in a fictional world doesn't conform to real life. You can make beautiful dark skinned people from almost all the races in this game. Different faces have different structures, just like there is one Miqo'te face that has full lips that is very nice. If you wanna cry about diversity, try not being a pasty white moon cat and play in character creation a little longer.

Edit :

Something I whipped up in character creation in about 5 minutes to prove a point. She's very nice and I actually might use this face set up for a future character.

https://i.imgur.com/NxZWQbq.jpg

---

So again, I quoted the same post, lmao.

https://i.imgur.com/rSV6leX.png

Why on earth does it STILL matter whether you have to be black or white to want greater customization choices in the character creator, even if it's just soley for Hyurs. Seriously, what does being either one have anything to do with the character creation? Why couldn't the TC simply just say "I want more of this" without continuously pointing out their skin color in almost every single post that they make?

There's literally no other reason to be drawing attention to yourself like that and then to just keep saying "this isn't me turning this into a race problem", when you keep circling the drain and using your own skin color to back up your arguments. If anyone has to mention their own race or nationality to make a point as to why XIV doesn't have it and that they're being under-represented personally, then yes, you just turned something as simple as "I would like more diverse hairstyles and skin tones from other cultural backgrounds and just in general, please" into a race problem.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nandina

You all are hyper sensitive and stuck on the word race

---

Not really, there's a very good reason to be "hyper sensitive" about it. What OP describing: hairstyles, nose, skin tones, facial features. The term for that is ethnicity, not race. The races are hyur, elezen, miqote, au ra, roegadyn, lalafell. The only single racial attribute on each race: tails, ears, muscles. That's it. Everyone don't have a problem with more ethnic features, everyone will have a problem with more racial features because it's the one thing that makes them unique (Tails/Ears/Muscles).

OP is simple example of what every culture-invariant company like SE dreads, people who don't know the difference between race and culture/ethnic. Is it reason to limit character creation? No. People can be educated properly, SE just have to make that distinction clear.

Don't take it personally but I understand where SE stands or why they did this limitation. SE as japanese/asian company, I also live in a country with distinct 600+ tribe cultures, not just few like in US. If any single culture claims to be in higher place than any other or in a gaming platform were to given special treatment permanently, there would be riots. All this could have been avoided with simple "I want more African-American culture featured in character creation". Certainly that would be received more welcomed, and yes I do think they need it too.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sigma-Astra

Why on earth does it STILL matter whether you have to be black or white to want greater customization choices in the character creator, even if it's just soley for Hyurs. Seriously, what does being either one have anything to do with the character creation? Why couldn't the TC simply just say "I want more of this" without continuously pointing out their skin color in almost every single post that they make?

There's literally no other reason to be drawing attention to yourself like that and then to just keep saying "this isn't me turning this into a race problem", when you keep circling the drain and using your own skin color to back up your arguments. If anyone has to mention their own race or nationality to make a point as to why XIV doesn't have it and that they're being under-represented personally, then yes, you just turned something as simple as "I would like more diverse hairstyles and skin tones from other cultural backgrounds, please" into a race problem.

---

Anyone is welcome to ask for more options if they desire for any race of their choosing the same way I asked for more for Hyurs. I didn't point out my specific skin color, I used other skin colors as an example to highlight what I meant by undertone. I used those shade ranges with the makeup example because it showcased what I meant by brown skin with a yellow undertone. And like I said previously, I used real life examples to showcase what I meant, because saying diverse hairstyles and skin tones isn't specific. We asked for diverse hairstyles for a while now and they give us different styles for straight instead.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tsumdere

4. You changed your post to quote my screenshot post once you were called out for ignoring me. I see you and I know other people do too.

You are troll and/or purposefully inflammatory. I was giving it the benefit of the doubt because I have genuinely known people like you in real life, but quote editing sealed the deal. Anyone else can talk to me about the issues since I think the representation of minorities in video games is a fascinating topic that deserves to be discussed (wrote many an essay on the portrayal of women and ethnic minorities in horror/video games), but not particularly interested in someone who cherry picks. Goodbye.

---

Playing victim I see. You can only post but so much at one time, therefor I have to go back and edit my posts to attempt to address everyone because you only get to post but so much in a day. Just because you weren't addressed when you wanted to be, doesn't mean I was ignoring you. You posting that picture didn't address the problem.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Melichoir

.

---

I'm still playing the game because I still like the game, as I said before. While you may personally have a black and white absolutionist mentality wherein no one can ever continue to enjoy things they have a problem with, I'm able to separate "things I enjoy" and "things that aren't so great" in my head. It's quite easy, really, and much more rewarding than blindly defending things without a second thought OR instantly damning everything even slightly problematic as evil.

I also never said the racism was overt, just worthy of discussion at the least. But thank you for putting words in my mouth in a poor attempt to strawman me.

Also, people being hesitant to post criticism on a forum where people will go out of their way to troll or dismiss them isn't a deflection. Surprisingly, when people want to talk about things that bother them, most of the time they don't appreciate being trolled or screamed at. Sure, that doesn't mean they shouldn't expect people who disagree with them, but the hesitation is perfectly understandable when you look at some* of the harsher reactions here.

*Notice that I say "some" and not "all" here, since you have a tendency for hyperbole and intentionally misreading things.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nandina

When I say justifying SE’s decisions, I’m not talking about just this thread alone, which is why I made sure to say the forum. Again, it can be THEIR game but I have the right to criticize like everyone else when I’m spending MY money whether you like it or not, or am I only allowed to criticize aspects of the game the community deems acceptable, in a very specific way? But I can’t help but notice you are doing just that, justifying that SE can do what it wants because it’s their game, which is an easy cop out. While I agree with that, the people using the weak “this is fantasy and not real life” tried better than that. Your response doesn’t add to the discussion at all.

If people are being manipulative and gaslighting, and claiming that I’m saying the game is racist, which was never the argument; or that I want a character that looks exactly like me, which again was never the argument, then I’m going to go in and let have. I’m not going to keep clarifying the same point a hundred times. I’m not about to sit around and let people put words in my mouth. I’m not going to let people claim that I’m trying to start a race war, when I’m not. Notice I haven’t been short-tempered with you or other people, just certain individuals because they kept deflecting. Everyone who is a member of this forum could use those same petty tactics against me, and I’m still not backing down.

It doesn’t matter if me insulting a select few people cheapens my argument against them, because their comments largely were irrelevant. Claiming I’m crying racism when I wasn’t cheapens their arguments. You have Vidu who doesn’t really care about the topic and has admitted it themselves, but yet chooses to vehemently comment. You have others mentioning Roegadyn, Au’Ra, and Miqo’te as if they have a point when the discussion is Hyurs. I wouldn’t discuss carpentry when everyone else is talking about sewing, and I wouldn’t say that the wooden tables available come in a brown hue when someone mentions that their thread doesn’t have that same color available.

---

You cried racism when you put that the game has a "race problem" in the title of this post and whined about diversity and representation. Stating that SE can do whatever they want because it's their game isn't a cop-out, it's the truth. You can complain and criticize things on here all you want it doesn't change anything if they don't implement it. Do you think you're the only one on here (and by that I also mean this entire forum not just this post) who has something they've wanted to see and never got? Everybody pays a subscription, not just you, so why can't we get the things we want too huh? You keep claiming that the community controls the content around here when we're largely ignored. I could go on, but you'll most likely ignore it since apparently nobody is allowed to disagree with you over anything.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Joven

I've said this before earlier in this post: works of fiction do not need to diverse or represent anyone, respectfully or otherwise. it's solely at the descretion of the creator. I don't say this as someone who's white, I say this as someone who doesn't feel like I need to be "represented" in anything. If this game only had characters who were of African decent, if all characters were female or completely non-human I'd still play it as long as it looked interesting. My identity isn't my skin color or facial features.

---

Interesting tale bud, but not everyone feels that way. If you don't want more diverse representation because it doesn't effect you in any way, then you don't have to talk about it or advocate it in any way.

For a lot of people, they HAVE to play as the default white dude in games. They HAVE to play as something that isn't like them because it's the only option available. Even when there IS customization available, the options are usually still pretty limited.

Also, you're right; creators don't have to try and respectfully represent people when they create something. Fans of that creation still have every right to criticize it, point out the lack of diversity, and how that may frustrate them, however.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nandina

Anyone is welcome to ask for more options if they desire for any race of their choosing the same way I asked for more for Hyurs. I didn't point out my specific skin color, I used other skin colors as an example to highlight what I meant by undertone.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nandina

So you mean to tell me that my black and brown friends are good enough to receive a subscription from, but not good enough to have the character creation cater to them as well? I'm biracial (black mom, Russian dad) and while I'm not dark skinned I don't have thin lips and sharp facial features.

---

^^^ That is literally part of your opening paragraph to the thread.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nandina

I’m on the lighter spectrum of skin color, but I have a yellow undertone that I couldn’t find in the creator. I’m criticizing cause I pay a sub.

---

There's #2.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nandina

A lot of black and brown gamers don't even speak up because of backlash like this, but I don't mind being the martyr, cause everybody can catch this virtual hands, lmao. Let's go.

---

Not EXACTLY saying, but hey, you're kind of hinting that you're using your own ethnicity to fuel this crusade. so, #2.5

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nandina

Like I can go dark, very dark actually, but I can’t really be in the middle. When I went very dark, there was still only either red tones or blue tones; no yellow or olive, which I’m pretty certain is why the skin looks funny. Like in real life, if I put a foundation on that matches my skin color, but has the wrong undertone, it looks funny. There too many duplicates of the same color and undertone.

---

#3, only stressing this one because it coincides with your statement in the opening paragraph.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nandina

But when people question it, you’re saying that to get the experience we want, black people have to be hulking beasts. Yes I say beasts, cause there’s nothing human about a Roegadyn or any of the other races. Sure they may be humanoid, but they aren’t human. As for the highlanders, I don’t want to look like a weight lifter, and many other black girls don’t either. What if a black or brown boy wants be toned and slim and not massive and aggressive looking, but doesn’t want to be an Elezen or Miqo’te (which doesn’t have his features anyway)?

---

#4, not stated explicitly, but using the other quotes as a reference, we get the picture.

But, I mean, there's everything plain in writing mostly.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nandina

snip

---

A race war? Who even said that yo...

You know what, yup, I'm done with this thread. You're using the term 'gaslighting' incorrectly, by the by. But yeah, I'm out of this thread - not worth continuing this argument anymore.

Pretty sure people offering differing opinions is not the same thing as invalidating the opinions of others.

Pointing out that something isn't practical, however nice/diversifying it would be, is not the same as invalidating or otherwise outright opposing it.

We have every right to criticize the creation we're a fan of; however, when you present that criticism on a public forum, other forum users have equal right to criticize that criticism or otherwise offer differing opinions.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sigma-Astra

^^^ That is literally part of your opening paragraph to the thread.

---

That was me indicating that just because I'm lighter, doesn't mean I have European facial features. Because there are albino black people, there are lighter skinned black people who aren't biracial, but don't have European facial features either. I used NC44 in Mac and 330 in Fenty as makeup references for undertone. They aren't my specific shades.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sigma-Astra

There's #2.

---

I used myself as an example because you can be very dark, very light, medium tan, etc; and each of those can have different undertones. There's no yellow undertone, not just for me, but anyone else who may want one.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sigma-Astra

Not EXACTLY saying, but hey, you're kind of hinting that you're using your own ethnicity to fuel this crusade. so, #2.5

---

Not exactly indeed. It's me saying that just because no one else did it, I don't mind doing it for them. If a kid broke his leg on the playground and a school refused to report it, I'd speak up for them. Doesn't matter if it's my leg or not.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sigma-Astra

#3, only stressing this one because it coincides with your statement in the opening paragraph.

---

Again, to illustrate why the skins in the game look ashy, by explaining that if I (or anyone) was to use the wrong undertone, this problem could happen. And that's regardless to race.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sigma-Astra

#4, not stated explicitly, but using the other quotes as a reference, we get the picture.

But, I mean, there's everything plain in writing mostly.

---

What I said above applies to this.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by wondergroove

For a lot of people, they HAVE to play as the default white dude in games. They HAVE to play as something that isn't like them because it's the only option available. Even when there IS customization available, the options are usually still pretty limited.

---

Many games have a set protagonist and the developers intend to tell that protagonist's story. If people choose to turn up their noses at a particular game because they cannot 'play themselves' then they're missing out on a lot of solid titles. In a game with a character creation system, you can - more often than not - adjust the skin tone of your character to reflect your own look if that is what you are willing to do.

With that said, though, bundling all 'white dudes' together seems rather strange. There is an immense amount of diversity where Caucasians are concerned. To name but a few, there's the Irish, the British, the Scottish, the Welsh, the French, the Croatian, the Polish and so on.

It feels like some people claim that they want more diversity yet in reality they only want 'visible' diversity.

For the record, I'm a guy who likes other guys. I have no issue playing a character that is straight. Is it nice when I can play a character that is gay or bisexual? Sure! Yet it isn't a necessity...because not every story can or will accommodate every possibility.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Joven

You cried racism when you put that the game has a "race problem" in the title of this post and whined about diversity and representation. Stating that SE can do whatever they want because it's their game isn't a cop-out, it's the truth. You can complain and criticize things on here all you want it doesn't change anything if they don't implement it. Do you think you're the only one on here (and by that I also mean this entire forum not just this post) who has something they've wanted to see and never got? Everybody pays a subscription, not just you, so why can't we get the things we want too huh? You keep claiming that the community controls the content around here when we're largely ignored. I could go on, but you'll most likely ignore it since apparently nobody is allowed to disagree with you over anything.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Seig345

Pretty sure people offering differing opinions is not the same thing as invalidating the opinions of others.

Pointing out that something isn't practical, however nice/diversifying it would be, is not the same as invalidating or otherwise outright opposing it.

We have every right to criticize the creation we're a fan of; however, when you present that criticism on a public forum, other forum users have equal right to criticize that criticism or otherwise offer differing opinions.

---

To Joven’s point, I already countered that in responses to other people so going over these arguments yet again, is unnecessary. But to address you both simultaneously. I didn’t get upset about people disagreeing with me. This was also already explained in prior posts. There have been a number of people who disagreed with me, and I understood their points and moved on.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KaivaC

A race war? Who even said that yo...

You know what, yup, I'm done with this thread. You're using the term 'gaslighting' incorrectly, by the by. But yeah, I'm out of this thread - not worth continuing this argument anymore.

---

Tsumdere said that. Do scroll up.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nandina

That was me indicating that just because I'm lighter, doesn't mean I have European facial features. Because there are albino black people, there are lighter skinned black people who aren't biracial, but don't have European facial features either. I used NC44 in Mac and 330 in Fenty as makeup references for undertone. They aren't my specific shades.





I used myself as an example because you can be very dark, very light, medium tan, etc; and each of those can have different undertones. There's no yellow undertone, not just for me, but anyone else who may want one.



Not exactly indeed. It's me saying that just because no one else did it, I don't mind doing it for them. If a kid broke his leg on the playground and a school refused to report it, I'd speak up for them. Doesn't matter if it's my leg or not.



Again, to illustrate why the skins in the game look ashy, by explaining that if I (or anyone) was to use the wrong undertone, this problem could happen. And that's regardless to race.



What I said above applies to this.

---

Whether you believe that it was to illustrate your point or not is irrelevant because it has done exactly the opposite of what you intended and I think that you should have known ahead of time that it would, you brought your own skin and ethnicity as an opening statement into a thread where you could have just stated "Hey guys, I think we need more of this!" and list your examples of what you'd like to see, and then leave it at that.

No information about your own skin-tone, no using buzzwords like gas lighting, no saying that the game is heavily bias towards Caucasians, and no using beliefs that you think a certain group of people are being under-represented. None of that. All of that was unneeded from the very beginning. If this thread is falling apart, it's because you started it that way with a hidden agenda and the rest of us are just pointing it out.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sigma-Astra

Whether you believe that it was to illustrate your point or not is irrelevant because it has done exactly the opposite of what you intended and I think that you should have known ahead of time that it would, you brought your own skin and ethnicity as an opening statement into a thread where you could have just stated "Hey guys, I think we need more of this!" and list your examples of what you'd like to see, and then leave it at that.

No information about your own skin-tone, no using buzzwords like gas lighting, , no saying that the game is heavily bias towards Caucasians, and no using ideas that you think a certain group of people are being under-represented. None of that. All of that was unneeded from the very beginning. If this thread is falling apart, it's because you started it that way with a hidden agenda and the rest of us are just pointing it out.

---

You sound very paranoid. There was no hidden agenda, and it seems like you want there to be. Everything was really transparent, bluntly so. You're reaching for what isn't there. What I stated didn't and still doesn't detract from the point that Hyurs need more character options. And who are you again to tell me how to communicate? I don't have to edit myself and word things in a way you and others deem acceptable. Being that I clarified multiple times what I meant, why are you all still acting confused? Once the clarification was made, everyone should've dropped that other bullshit and focused on the customization limitations for Hyur. But yet I'm allegedly the one trolling. Whatever.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by wondergroove

Interesting tale bud, but not everyone feels that way. If you don't want more diverse representation because it doesn't effect you in any way, then you don't have to talk about it or advocate it in any way.

For a lot of people, they HAVE to play as the default white dude in games. They HAVE to play as something that isn't like them because it's the only option available. Even when there IS customization available, the options are usually still pretty limited.

Also, you're right; creators don't have to try and respectfully represent people when they create something. Fans of that creation still have every right to criticize it, point out the lack of diversity, and how that may frustrate them, however.

---

I advocate for the creator's choice to include whatever race, gender, etc. they want without being forced to try and appeal to everyone's sensibilities. When you start expecting every game to cater to everybody you stifle creativity and expression. This is the the creator's story they're telling, not ours.

If you feel like the character on the screen HAS to be just like you then that's your hangup. If your only criticism of a game you claim to be a fan of is simply that you aren't represented then that's kinda petty.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Theodric

Many games have a set protagonist and the developers intend to tell that protagonist's story. If people choose to turn up their noses at a particular game because they cannot 'play themselves' then they're missing out on a lot of solid titles.

---

I only play characters that are exactly like me.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nandina

You sound very paranoid. There was no hidden agenda, and it seems like you want there to be. Everything was really transparent, bluntly so. You're reaching for what isn't there. What I stated didn't and still doesn't detract from the point that Hyurs need more character options. And who are you again to tell me how to communicate? I don't have to edit myself and word things in a way you and others deem acceptable. Being that I clarified multiple times what I meant, why are you all still acting confused? Once the clarification was made, everyone should've dropped that other bullshit and focused on the customization limitations for Hyur. But yet I'm allegedly the one trolling. Whatever.

---

I didn't realize that discussing things calmly with you was paranoia. You might want to examine yourself about that. You really need to stop with the blanket assumptions and rudeness right off the bat if you want anyone to take your criticisms seriously, just a helpful suggestion. If you're feeling threatened or offended by what I just said, then who exactly is the paranoid one again? I mean, you're pretty good at assuming that others having an opinion that goes against your own is somehow invalidating your words and telling you how to communicate. Who are you to tell me how to communicate to you?

Assuming that all of a sudden, I'm telling you how to communicate when I just offered some suggestions that you could have used to avoid these 7 pages of nonsense. You can dish criticism against others, but you surely can't take it without getting overly hostile and looking to be offended by it almost immediately while acting that your own opinions are on some kind of higher platform than others.

I mean, this thread is beyond help at this point. But, if you like seeing it become the train wreck it is then who am I to stop or say "Hey...maybe this might not have happened if you just opened with something like this instead like other topics...".

Now we see why Eorzea has no mixed races and why Hylda is a rarity, people will outright dismiss something that doesn't affect them. Reminds me a lot of Ishgard and the issues it brought up.
As long as it doesn't affect me it shouldn't matter to anyone else.