4.2 Housing Update

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Originally Posted by Besame

The only people that abused housing are the ones that buy and flip for huge profits.

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Originally Posted by Besame

SE did allow multiples per account after all so to me, one house per alt was not abuse.

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Agreed, the system was setup so players could buy 1 personal character and 1 FC house per character. Not abuse, just how the system was designed.

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Originally Posted by Besame

The multiple plot owners should be given "X" amount of time to sell/demolish/give away, whatever, any more than 1 plot per main

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Woah there! You just said they did nothing wrong. Why are you trying to punish them now? Because they have something you'll now never be able to get? (multiple houses).

Also sell/giveaway won't really be options with 4.2 either. There is no official sell function and I can't see many people wanting to "buy" a plot if they can't have some guarantee that they'll get it with the new random timer.

Same for giveaway, no guarantee that the person you're giving it to will be able to get it. That only leaves demolish and literally no incentive for anyone to do that.

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Originally Posted by Besame

Now that housing has become such an issue SE needs to step up and deal with it.

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Well going forward people will only be able to buy 1 personal house etc.

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Originally Posted by Besame

I could of bought a house on my alt but I chose not to.

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Okay. The option was there though.

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Originally Posted by Besame

There is something to be said for not being a glutton and sharing with others.

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You just said at the start of your post "SE did allow multiples per account after all so to me, one house per alt was not abuse", but anyone that actually did that is a glutton?

Gluttony is not deliberate abuse, it's a behavior issue. There is a distinction between a behavior and intended millions of gained gil for profit abuse. Fortunately, I don't have this behavior. What I am stating is: if SE continues to make wards without standards for purchase, eg., 1 per acct/main with alts receiving all privileges, this problem will continue. If people can abuse OR work around the system they will find a way unless SE places a total stop gap on purchasing any way but one. In any case, time will tell after 4.2. I won't hold my breath that anything I have read from them so far will come to fruition, after all, Read "A:" in my comment. Their word means nothing until the fat lady sings.

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Originally Posted by Besame

In any case, time will tell after 4.2. I won't hold my breath that anything I have read from them so far will come to fruition, after all, Read "A." in my comment. Their word means nothing until the fat lady sings.

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While I'm happy for the grandfathering being clarified, for my own gluttonous reasons, I do agree with you on taking their current stance at face value. I, personally, have already taken action to ensure that if they eventually change their mind, on keeping players with multiple houses grandfathered in, that I will not be losing my 2nd FC. Your signature is a prime example of them being capable of changing their minds along with my personal experience of losing grandfather status on other products/services.

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Originally Posted by Luxpheras

Yoshida mentioned during the Letter from the Producer LIVE Part XLI that the rules being added in Patch 4.2 will be applicable to new purchases only. Players who already possess more than one FC estate and 1 personal estate per world will not lose their existing housing.

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They need to lose their additional houses. This rule is fantastic, however it needs to be applied retroactively otherwise it's a hollow gesture. Now obviously, let them select the house they want to keep and give them a full 100% refund of all their gil and items but they need to lose any other houses they own.

While I understand why people want it to be retroactive, it just isn't fair for people who got it when it was totally allowed.

Besides, in the long run it won't really matter if some people are grandfathered in. Those people won't be able to buy more houses, so the new wards will be for those who can. There will be more wards over time.

Furthermore if any of those people with multiple houses go away and get demo'd, they'd lose their houses that way and I'm pretty sure (though it's not confirmed, but based on how the system sounds like) that they would end up with the 1 house rule once that happens.

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Originally Posted by MeridaQ

and are planning on updating apartments to Small/Medium/Large.

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Is there concrete proof of this? I know YoshiP said they would "look into it" after 4.2 but I never saw anything where it was set in stone to be coming in the future. Could you link where you saw it, please?

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Originally Posted by Zigabar

Your signature is a prime example of them being capable of changing their minds along with my personal experience of losing grandfather status on other products/services.

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Personally I always think that's it's unfair to hold to them what they wrote back in that live letter. That was said over a month before they even released housing and two years before they actually bought in reclamation of inactive housing.

I'm sure at the time they said that they meant it, but 2 years later it seems that wasn't possible any more (and it probably didn't help that a lot of the community were actually demanding that they added in demolition because they didn't like all the unused houses sat around).

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Originally Posted by Khalithar

They need to lose their additional houses. This rule is fantastic, however it needs to be applied retroactively otherwise it's a hollow gesture. Now obviously, let them select the house they want to keep and give them a full 100% refund of all their gil and items but they need to lose any other houses they own.

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why multi home owners broke no rules..and do you think there gonna give back real life money people spent on mog staiion items like wallpapers n flooring. and please for the sake of arguemnt tell me what im gonna do with 440 items i cant sell or place any where cause i all ready have a house full..you gonna give me the gil i paid for the items when i bought them?? like the bearskin rug that was 4mil+ now 200k..Or the price there worth now which is nothing cause the markets flooded due to materials being cheap

Honestly SE can fix the issue with certain items like flooring/lights/wallpaper etc. I believe it was mentioned (cannot remember where) they were going to make them removable and be able to keep them.

About multiple plot owners being grandfathered in I do not agree with it but there is a way for SE to fix it:

1. Allow all characters on a single account use the same private house.
2. For a 90 day window, allow players to demolish housing and receive full price in return. Send out e-mail and in game notifications to players with multiple houses 45 days out from the 90 window every 5 days informing them to demolish extra housing or run the risk of losing all housing on their account (will still get all items and 100% Gil back if forced).

The change will not please everyone. Also for those who rage quit over this, your a small subset of the user base.

After reading in these forums how people boasted about having several houses and being able to buy more in patch 4.2. I hope the effect is retroactive and receive the price of the house and the furnitures in storage, nothing more.

It is a very cynical attitude to ask in these forums that they do not take away their multiple houses, this being the biggest housing problem.

I am happy to see how yoshi has not only finished with these greedy people, but also that it has ended the resale system.

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Originally Posted by Khalithar

They need to lose their additional houses. This rule is fantastic, however it needs to be applied retroactively otherwise it's a hollow gesture. Now obviously, let them select the house they want to keep and give them a full 100% refund of all their gil and items but they need to lose any other houses they own.

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You people make me laugh. Why should I lose my additional houses when i obviously didnt break a single rule? Please explain that to me.

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Originally Posted by Rinuko

You people make me laugh. Why should I lose my additional houses when i obviously didnt break a single rule? Please explain that to me.

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Somehow taking away houses means a fix the housing shortage even though the numbers don't come close to working in their favor. Facts like the Devs deliberately designing personal housing to work the way they did and that housing owners haven't actually broken any rules or done anything wrong is irrelevant to them.

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Originally Posted by Alien_Gamer

Facts like the Devs deliberately designing personal housing to work the way they did and that housing owners haven't actually broken any rules or done anything wrong is irrelevant to them.

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And there's absolutely no way SE could compensate for time/effort/money spent on furniture. Even if the person got to keep the furniture they can't sell it (binded), likely wouldn't have inventory space to hold it and wouldn't have a house to store it in.

Better to just leave the people alone who did nothing wrong, they can't buy any additional plots, only lose them due to inactivity over time.

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Originally Posted by worldofneil

And there's absolutely no way SE could compensate for time/effort/money spent on furniture. Even if the person got to keep the furniture they can't sell it (binded), likely wouldn't have inventory space to hold it and wouldn't have a house to store it in.

Better to just leave the people alone who did nothing wrong, they can't buy any additional plots, only lose them due to inactivity over time.

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True neil, there is no way to compensate for item cost and loss. It is SE's shoddy housing delivery system in the first place that is to blame. I am hoping most people get a house after 4.2 and there is no monkey biz with quick-made FC spam to buy. I would be curious to see how many FCs have been made since they released this info and how many more before 4.2 arrives.

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Originally Posted by Alien_Gamer

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The housing system the way it is currently designed will never satisfy the player base.

Even if there were enough houses that everyone could have 2 houses per account, you would then have people bickering about how X player has a large mansion and they "never decorate it enough" or that "it's private and not FC, only FCs should own large houses!".

SE needs to stop adding wards and just work on giving every player access to instanced housing. Convert apartments into houses with yards or give people yards via the rooftop of the apartment building if they want to keep in lore with apartment buildings.

The current housing system is crap and no amount of rules will fix it.

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Originally Posted by worldofneil

Personally I always think that's it's unfair to hold to them what they wrote back in that live letter. That was said over a month before they even released housing and two years before they actually bought in reclamation of inactive housing.

I'm sure at the time they said that they meant it, but 2 years later it seems that wasn't possible any more (and it probably didn't help that a lot of the community were actually demanding that they added in demolition because they didn't like all the unused houses sat around).

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Oh, I agree that we should not hold them to that quote. In fact, I was purposely using that statement as an immediate example of things can and do change. I was not at all saying I agree or disagree with it.

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Originally Posted by Rinuko

You people make me laugh. Why should I lose my additional houses when i obviously didnt break a single rule? Please explain that to me.

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If you go to a party with a buffet, and then eat the whole thing, you haven't broken any rules. After all, the point of a buffet is to eat as much as you want, right? That doesn't change the fact that the rest of the party goers are sad, because they didn't get any food. You knew they were there, and you ate all of the food anyway, even though you knew they'd like some, too.

No rules have been broken, but you are still a bad person for doing it. You've exploited a system's flaws for personal gain at the expense of others. Is it the fault of the system, or the fault of the exploiters? Yes, to both.

i have houses on 2 alts, bought because the plots were just sitting there and i had extra gil at the time. I have enjoyed decorating them and i do use them as crating locations for my alts to this day. I would relinquish them in a heartbeat if there was a good mechanism to do so, since i do feel bad for those who cannot enjoy housing due to the shortage. Unfortunately there is no mechanism to relinquish a house that is reasonable. If they could just make the same process that manages refunds, and items for demolished houses kick in for relinquished houses you would see folks relinquishing voluntarily. At least I would.

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

No rules have been broken, but you are still a bad person for doing it. You've exploited a system's flaws for personal gain at the expense of others. Is it the fault of the system, or the fault of the exploiters? Yes, to both.

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They...are bad person because they purchased something in a videogame? Wow. This is some statement right here.

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Originally Posted by Aniise

They...are bad person because they purchased something in a videogame? Wow. This is some statement right here.

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Oh it's in season to vilify people with multiples at the moment.

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Originally Posted by Aniise

They...are bad person because they purchased something in a videogame? Wow. This is some statement right here.

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Well taking extras of something when you know that there are people going without any at all doesn't put them on par with murderers or child abusers but it certainly doesn't make them a "nice person" either. And if you play the "it's just a videogame" card, remember that it cuts both ways- why does it matter if SE reclaims houses from hoarders because "it's just a videogame" and "they're just virtual items" so who cares?

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Originally Posted by Rymm

Well taking extras of something when you know that there are people going without any at all doesn't put them on par with murderers or child abusers but it certainly doesn't make them a "nice person" either. And if you play the "it's just a videogame" card, remember that it cuts both ways- why does it matter if SE reclaims houses from hoarders because "it's just a videogame" and "they're just virtual items" so who cares?

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I didn't play any 'card' as you called it. I just think that calling them " bad people" for buying two virtual houses might be a tiny bit exaggerated ;) But to each their own I suppose.

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Originally Posted by Rymm

but it certainly doesn't make them a "nice person" either.

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It doesn't have any reflection on them as a person whatsoever. All it does is make it easier for people to absolve themselves of guilt for hating/envying others. "Oh they're bad people anyway, it's okay to take things away from them" even though it won't fix anything.

If you step back and read enough posts, it becomes pretty clear that certain people don't care nearly as much about making Square fix the problem as they do about punishing the people they're convinced have slighted them. Whether that's because deep down they know Square can't/won't ever fix this mess or because it's just easier to elicit a response from individuals vs a company is beyond me.

Please remember that some people bought a second house on their alternate main through house flippers and paid a price gouged amount for it (with legitimate gil from hundreds of hours of crafting and grinding). They are the one who would be hurt the most from forced relinquish.

SE, the decision you made is the right one. Please never force relinquish a plot from an active owner.

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Originally Posted by Titor

Please remember that some people bought a second house on their alternate main through house flippers and paid a price gouged amount for it (with legitimate gil from hundreds of hours of crafting and grinding). They are the one who would be hurt the most from forced relinquish.

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You won't find sympathy for people that bought a house from a flipper here. "What, you put a lot of effort into getting a house??? The only real way to get a house is to win the login lottery at 3am on Tuesday morning patch day."

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Originally Posted by Darrcyphfeid

It doesn't have any reflection on them as a person whatsoever.

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I guess that depends on your world-view. I subscribe to the belief that it's the small, everyday interactions that determine the kind of person you are. It's one thing to be good or moral when making big, life defining choices or actions, but really the little things (even if it's just being thoughtful toward others in a video game) have just as much bearing on the formation of your character (your personality qualities, not your game avatar, lol.)

That being said, I personally don't hate hoarders. Well, scratch that, I do dislike a few of them but that is less about the fact that they have multiple homes and more about their personalities; I'm pretty specific with my hates, dislikes, likes, loves, etc. and I can't really form an opinion without knowing much about them. And I don't envy them either as I am already lucky enough to own a personal home and my FC has a house as well, and have passed on multiple opportunities to buy more. I simply don't want to because I don't think it's fair. Which is really the root of my issue with house hoarding- it offends my sense of fairness and just because it's not breaking the rules does not mean that it is not morally objectionable. Keeping multiple things for yourself, at the expense of other people, is objectively "not nice." This is something we teach (or try to) little pre-school aged children on a daily basis, it's a standard of social behavior; I really don't understand how it is suddenly so contentious, beyond people looking out for their own selfish interests.

You are correct in that I don't believe that SE can fix housing at this point, at least not with the budget they are currently allowed. I would love for them to completely overhaul the system and give us either instanced housing or dynamic wards but I genuinely believe that will never happen. Which is why I support stop-gaps intended to ease the housing crisis like the old auto-demo timer, the new 1/1 owning restrictions, and hopefully the future reclamation of hoarded homes. Everyone claimed that the auto-demo timer wouldn't make any difference either, but look how many people own homes now thanks to that. If they do reclaim the hoarded homes, I guarantee it'll make a huge difference to the people who are able to buy them.

As an aside, I really take issue with hoarders constantly throwing around the word "punishment" when talking about taking away their multiples. I've said it before and I'll say it again, being negatively impacted does not equate punishment. Losing those homes would be no more of a "punishment" by SE than they were "punishing" other players by holding them in the first place.

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Originally Posted by Darrcyphfeid

It doesn't have any reflection on them as a person whatsoever.

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Oh, it very much does - Just about every action you take reflects back to you as a person in one way or the other. One's personality leads to one's actions after all, that's the reason why not everyone acts the exact same way in the same situations. The issue when making conclusions the other way around is that there can be multiple personalities behind one and the same action. I might be making this comment to belittle you, to educate you, to try and get my opinion accepted, to pass the time trolling or a lot of other reasons and each reason says something different about me as a person. Finding out which it truly is, that's the hard part, unless I'm telling you outright.

Personally, I also think that it would be far better to advocate a real solution, but frankly, that's been done for years now already and SE hasn't budged. More wards and a bandaid restriction? Come on. There should have long since been an instanced area in each district with a plot to buy, shape and upgrade as desired, but instead we got a carbon copy of FC rooms.
Talking of apartments - Every single FC house no matter the size can hold up to 512 rooms. Apartment buildings only 100. It's not just a carbon copy, it's a shabby carbon copy whose total capacity per server amounts to little more than 19 FC houses as of 4.1. Much limitations, such wow.

I have sympathy with everyone who has no faith whatsoever that SE is ever going to fix the mess that is this housing system. It's been terribly mismanaged from start to finish.

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Originally Posted by Luxpheras

Greetings,



Yoshida mentioned during the Letter from the Producer LIVE Part XLI that the rules being added in Patch 4.2 will be applicable to new purchases only. Players who already possess more than one FC estate and 1 personal estate per world will not lose their existing housing.

We appreciate all the feedback shared so far and will continue to pass your thoughts along to the dev. team!

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Welp, so much for that.

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Originally Posted by Rymm

Well taking extras of something when you know that there are people going without any at all doesn't put them on par with murderers or child abusers but it certainly doesn't make them a "nice person" either. And if you play the "it's just a videogame" card, remember that it cuts both ways- why does it matter if SE reclaims houses from hoarders because "it's just a videogame" and "they're just virtual items" so who cares?

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Anyone on my server who wanted a house had a house including FCs.. i bought my 3 houses wile 200+ say empty for a year plus..heck i bought 12+ other people there homes as gifts to and there was still 200+ empty houses on my server..It wasnt untill people were handed a free ride they started complaing..

Anyone up till free transfers if they truly wanted a house could of had one by transfering...If you dont have a house and were here before free transfers stop crying you didn't do everything within your power to get a house.I have no sympthy for anyone who didnt do every thing could to get a house.So now you wanna punish people who sat and stared at 100's of empty lots lol

Now the new thing seems to be whoa what about new players they cant own mroe then one..well what about the palayers who have been paying there subs for years and playing the game who raised differnt charcters running the msq beating the game multi times, they should suffer cause of new ppl that might stay lol

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Originally Posted by Rymm

As an aside, I really take issue with hoarders constantly throwing around the word "punishment" when talking about taking away their multiples. I've said it before and I'll say it again, being negatively impacted does not equate punishment. Losing those homes would be no more of a "punishment" by SE than they were "punishing" other players by holding them in the first place.

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From good old wiki:

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A punishment is the imposition of an undesirable or unpleasant outcome upon a group or individual, meted out by an authority—in contexts ranging from child discipline to criminal law—as a response and deterrent to a particular action or behaviour that is deemed undesirable or unacceptable.

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Imposition of undesirable outcome - check
meted out by authority - check
response to undesirable behaviour - check

Which part makes it not a punishment?

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

Which part makes it not a punishment?

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Context. You glossed over that part from your own quote.

"in contexts ranging from child discipline to criminal law"

I'm going to quote myself here to save me the trouble of typing out the same example, again-

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Originally Posted by Rymm

It's like owning a home with a big, beautiful front lawn for years. Eventually the traffic in front of your house gets worse and worse and finally the city has to do something to relieve the gridlock. So they decide to add another lane, by widening the street and taking part of your front lawn to do it, maybe even chopping down a tree or two. Does it negatively impact the homeowner? Yes. Is the homeowner being punished? No. But the city needs to infringe on their luxury in order to make the lives of the majority of people better.

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Also-

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

response to undesirable behaviour - check

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Just curious, does this mean you are conceding that house hoarding is an 'undesirable behavior' by SE? So many people are claiming it is okay because the rules technically allowed it up until now.

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Originally Posted by Rymm

I guess that depends on your world-view.

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Originally Posted by Zojha

Oh, it very much does - Just about every action you take reflects back to you as a person in one way or the other.

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Can we at least agree that there are varying levels of significance? That maybe the act of buying 3 or 29 houses, without gloating or belitting or even interacting with would-be buyers in any way, is in itself insignificant? ...No? Okay. Carry on then.


Being honest, I'll be mildly irritated until 100% of all blame and outrage rests at Square's feet. It's entirely their fault, and XIV housing is an infinitely copyable digital good. I straight-up refuse to believe that they can't provide enough housing. But if that's true - if they truly can't afford to properly support their players' needs despite the monthly fee and ridiculous additional income via Mog Station/SE Store - maybe they just shouldn't be trying to run and maintain an MMO to begin with. Just sayin'.

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Originally Posted by Titor

Please remember that some people bought a second house on their alternate main through house flippers and paid a price gouged amount for it (with legitimate gil from hundreds of hours of crafting and grinding). They are the one who would be hurt the most from forced relinquish.

SE, the decision you made is the right one. Please never force relinquish a plot from an active owner.

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Dummy, SE doesn't support that flipper shit, if in the future many house owners would have to decide to keep one house SE can only give back the money the base land cost. Buying from flippers is on the buyers if they would one day have to give them up.

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Originally Posted by Rymm

Context. You glossed over that part from your own quote.

"in contexts ranging from child discipline to criminal law"

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I don't think you understand what that means. It means those two different areas as well as others, eg putting down old yeller, your boss yelling at you, traffic tickets.

Your example lacks the undesirable/unacceptable behaviour requirement.

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Originally Posted by Rymm

Just curious, does this mean you are conceding that house hoarding is an 'undesirable behavior' by SE? So many people are claiming it is okay because the rules technically allowed it up until now.

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I am conceding that people like you find it undesirable, and want an authority figure (SE) to punish them.

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Originally Posted by Rymm

Everyone claimed that the auto-demo timer wouldn't make any difference either, but look how many people own homes now thanks to that. If they do reclaim the hoarded homes, I guarantee it'll make a huge difference to the people who are able to buy them.

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Personally, I thought the auto-demolition timer would be a huge help. That it would be a semi-decent sized group of houses available that first 45 days, then after that a slow trickle to help ease the market.

Reclaiming houses from everyone that has multiple houses might give a one time boost of about 100-200 houses on the market per server. It would make a "huge difference" one time, but it will also piss off many people, and create many headaches for SE including wasting time and resources on a one time event to make it happen.

There is also no guarantee that the number of people who are happy would outweigh the number of people upset, especially since many people have expressed concerns about taking homes from active players as a slippery slope. It would invite other in game items/ purchases to be taken away from players in the future. People who own multiple houses won't be able to buy any more, so that will help keep future ward expansions for homeless people (with people who already own a home being able to relocate to "dream plots"). Either with the addition of more wards, reclamation, or more likely a combination of both, housing will sort itself out as long as SE keeps taking the issue seriously and works at it (though instanced housing really would be the best option).

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

I don't think you understand what that means.

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I understand what the preposition 'from' means, lol. I just don't feel that this situation, regulation of virtual housing, falls into the sliding scale of context mentioned in your definition. Which I suppose boils down to opinion since we don't have an official source to cite on whether it does or not. Would it make you feel better if I phrased it as, "In my opinion, hoarders shouldn't throw around the word 'punishment' when talking about losing their multiples."? I could provide you with the Merriam Webster definition if you like, as it's the definition of punishment that I use and why I take issue with it being used in such a way. In the end, we are simply arguing semantics anyway, which pales considerably next to the topic at hand, and why I only mentioned it in passing at the end of my post.

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Originally Posted by MizArai

There is also no guarantee that the number of people who are happy would outweigh the number of people upset

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I can concede that you are correct in most of your post and that I heartily hope that you are right about SE continuing to take the issue seriously until housing is sorted out. But I can't agree with this line quoted here and have to point out that it is objectively wrong. Even if every single hoarder only owned one extra home, the ratio of upset/happy people if they were resold would be, at the very least, 1:1. But there are enough well documented cases to show multiple owners having way more than one extra home to tip the scales well in favor of the people who would be able to buy a house. And, even if that weren't the case, the probability of FCs scoping up those resold houses would tilt the scales even further in favor of the number of people to be made happy by such a change.

In the end, you are probably correct. It would probably be too much work for SE for too small a benefit to the playerbase for them to reclaim hoarders multiples and it is as futile for me to advocate this as it is to advocate instanced housing or dynamic wards. Still, the official word is that they are still taking feedback, so I will continue to give mine, even if it ultimately falls on deaf ears.

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Originally Posted by Rymm

Even if every single hoarder only owned one extra home, the ratio of upset/happy people if they were resold would be, at the very least, 1:1. But there are enough well documented cases to show multiple owners having way more than one extra home to tip the scales well in favor of the people who would be able to buy a house. And, even if that weren't the case, the probability of FCs scoping up those resold houses would tilt the scales even further in favor of the number of people to be made happy by such a change.

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I've seen quite a few people in the forums who have commented in these threads claiming they either own no personal home or only one personal home and don't want the homes of people with multiple homes taken from them. What you're failing to take into account is the people who don't have a horse in the race, but see it instead as the start of a very slippery slope and setting a very bad precedent.

edit: I'm right there with you wishing they would do instanced housing, as long as I can still visit everyone's house, since I'm a nosey neighbor and love to visit random houses to see what all people have done with them. :-D

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Originally Posted by MizArai

I've seen quite a few people in the forums who have commented in these threads claiming they either own no personal home or only one personal home and don't want the homes of people with multiple homes taken from them. What you're failing to take into account is the people who don't have a horse in the race, but see it instead as the start of a very slippery slope and setting a very bad precedent.

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But you have to realize that there are also people like me, on the other side of the fence. I also don't have a horse in the race, as I already own a home, but still think the fairest route would be to reclaim the multiples. There is no way to get concrete numbers on the proponents or opponents of the issue short of polling the entire playerbase. The only numbers we can be sure of at this point is the ratio of those who would loose their excess houses verses those who would gain access to housing.

If only SE would make this whole argument moot by fixing housing... if only. :(

I am sorry everyone who is upset about the rules not being retroactive are pointing fingers at the wrong people. Instead of getting upset over the fact that people will still get to keep all their plots why not instead voice your outrage towards SE and demand that they provide a valid fix and not a temporary fix.