Black Mage Raise Ability

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

My point is that verraise has almost trivialised something that was catastrophic before stormblood. Combining a PLD and a RDM in a party is insane because of the sheer amount of healing utility that they both bring, and IMO that has completely changed the landscape of progression.

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But have you considered the cost of that? If either of them casts too much of Verraise, Vercure and/or Clemency, you wouldn't do enough damage to score a victory in time.

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

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There are 3 examples of SMN being heavily linked to White Magic and/or Raising, 2 of which are in IX which doesn't use a traditional job system and Yuna in X which again doesn't use a traditional job system. 3 is not many. All other variations of SMN without individual game gimmicks allowing Raise do not have Raise as a default. Summoning Phoenix doesn't count since it's not White Magic. You can't use lore for or against this argument either way as each game is its own self contained universe and previous entries should be considered little more than guideposts and general framework than anything concrete, and in this self contained universe, the devs have decided that the unique experience of each job is a design priority, having Red Mage be adept at both White and Black magic is part of that.

On the matter of people asking for RDMs over the other two casters I've seen this very little, going off of party finder for my data center anyway, and usually the ones that do are trap parties hoping a Red Mage is enough to carry them, pointless elitists who follow the meta because that's how X or Y world first group did it (these people usually think they're on the same level and can just pick it up and do the instance because they have meta composition), or both. Anecdotal evidence is a bad metric either way, the only one who will be able to see the entire picture is SE since they most likely have numbers for the entire population, notice they didn't touch Verraise at all yet despite having several opportunities to do so. Our limited perspectives are pointless here.

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Originally Posted by PrismaticDaybreak

You can't use lore for or against this argument either way...

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Of the five famous summoners in the series, four were also white mages and one was also a black mage (we left out Karaha-Baruha from FINAL FANTASY XI). The fact only one of them came from a game with a job system is irrelevant; this is what the characters were. So actually, yes we can. It doesn't matter if FINAL FANTASY XIV is its own universe (and every FINAL FANTASY is). That "general framework" is what shapes the design of the jobs in addition to the fact this game is an MMO. The summoner as it currently is in FINAL FANTASY XIV is a clunky mess, but conceptually it's really not much different from the summoner in FINAL FANTASY XI, calling on an esper in FINAL FANTASY XII or summoning an aeon in FINAL FANTASY X. FINAL FANTASY III's evoker could sometimes summon Ifrit to heal. FINAL FANTASY V's summoner had several defensive capabilities, including a raising effect. The summoner in FINAL FANTASY Tactics had two summons, a moogle and a faerie, to heal allies and a golem to add to defenses. The summoner in FINAL FANTASY Tactics Advance had to master white mage and elementalist abilities first, and was capable of summoning Kirin for an HP regen and Phoenix for revival. FINAL FANTASY Tactics A2: Grimoire of the Rift kept Kirin and Phoenix as summons.

No one can ever rationally say that summoners are offensive mages only. But black mages are, and therefore any utility they do get should reflect that. Perhaps next time you'll do a bit more research.

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Originally Posted by Ceallach

No. You can't

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My reasoning for why we "shouldn't" use lore (probably a better word for it) was not the number of famous Summoner/White Mages. I don't know if you're counting Rydia since she gives up White Magic although the fact that she gives it up seems to lean that Summoning and White Magic (and furthermore Raising) are completely unrelated. The job system is completely relevant when we're comparing games with and without it, for example 14 which has a strict job system, and no subjob capabilities. Summoners are not inherently great at raising since Summoning is more often than not in the series independent from White Magic, which is the case in 3, 5, 6, 7, 8, 11, 12, 13 and 14 and to some extent 4 since, again, Rydia gives up White Magic but retains Summoning. The only examples where Summoners are inherently White Magic experts are 9 and 10. That's 2 examples to 9-10, again even if you try to apply lore from different games to 14, the idea still falls flat. Again, summon Phoenix doesn't count since that's Summoning, not White Magic.

I didn't say Summoners were only offensive in any context, they simply aren't going to be as good at raising as Red Mages, excluding Phoenix (which is the raising effect you mentioned from V), which isn't usable in this game and therefore not applicable.

Perhaps next time you won't cherry pick

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Originally Posted by Ceallach

No one can ever rationally say that summoners are offensive mages only. But black mages are, and therefore any utility they do get should reflect that.

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+1

its not just about heal & res... lorewise summoners also got a huge kit of support skills or summons with support effects like reflect or reraise (f.e. carbuncle) - they are indeed used to white/light magic even if most of them arent based on a job system or whm cls in there own games. : o

Maybe like a BLM-raised player would be in Walking Dead (DRK) status with 1 HP for 10s.

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Originally Posted by Neela

+1

its not just about heal & res... lorewise summoners also got a huge kit of support skills or summons with support effects like reflect or reraise (f.e. carbuncle) - they are indeed used to white/light magic even if most of them arent based on a job system or whm cls in there own games. : o

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Huge is a fairly vast overstatement, there's a smattering of support summons is more accurate.

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Originally Posted by PrismaticDaybreak

Huge is a fairly vast overstatement, there's a smattering of support summons is more accurate.

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"Summoners use special magic that allows them to call forth summoned monsters. Summons usually cost more MP than the average spell, but are much more powerful. In some games, summoners also have the ability to cast either Black Magic or White Magic as well as to summon, thus making them more versatile." - http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Summoner_(job)

As for support summons themselves, we have (from FFVI alone):

Carbuncle (reflect on party)
Kirin (regen on party)
Phantom (invisible on party)
Unicorn (removes many debuffs)
Golem (blocks attacks)
Zona Seeker (shell on party)
Seraph (heals party)
Fenrir (grant "image" status)
Lakshmi (restores HP)
Phoenix (revives players)

Which I think is a bit more than a "smattering" (These are just the support summons that buff the player, there are more still that debuff the enemy without dealing damage such as Siren, Catoblepas, Cait Sith etc.)

Can I just chime in and say that if Black Mage receives a resurrection ability, I'll never touch the current caster jobs again.

And on the historical implications of past job combinations, why does it even matter in the context of XIV? The game is separate from all of the others. Instead of RDM and SMN getting more interesting and engaging mechanics, they just shoehorn support abilities into kits because of past lore. Then again I'm not sure if I should even be complaining about it, it's not like this game hasn't been raw unclean fanservice in every possible way since day 1 of 2.2.

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

"Summoners use special magic that allows them to call forth summoned monsters. Summons usually cost more MP than the average spell, but are much more powerful. In some games, summoners also have the ability to cast either Black Magic or White Magic as well as to summon, thus making them more versatile."
...Which I think is a bit more than a "smattering" (These are just the support summons that buff the player, there are more still that debuff the enemy without dealing damage such as Siren, Catoblepas, Cait Sith etc.)

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For your bolded quote, once you examine the actual evidence of Summoners innately using White or Black Magic, again 3 games with to 9 or so without and let me direct your attention to the beginning of that sentence "In some games" which as I just told you and went through and examined above is 3. I didn't mention the debuff ones since the summons XIV SMN already has do have debuffs attached and again has no bearing on how skilled at White Magic and/or Raising they would be. If we want to actually go off of former in game mechanics, SMN wouldn't be skilled in the slightest at White Magic since their pre requisite sub class was Thaumaturge.

Interesting that you would qualify that list "From VI alone" which is a misleading statement once you compare the number of support summons only from that game to the amount of support summons in the other games, the pool is small and one game is hardly enough to justify Summoners being a support machine. Not to mention summoning anything was available to any character in VI as well as any type of magic.

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Originally Posted by PrismaticDaybreak

Perhaps next time you won't cherry pick

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I'm sorry, did you even read my list? I didn't even include FINAL FANTASY VI (thanks to Lambdafish for his post), and in FINAL FANTASY XI summoners could order Blood Pact: Ward abilities that were literally all support.

Perhaps next time you won't cherry pick and just admit you're flat-out wrong.

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Originally Posted by AxiomPITCH

And on the historical implications of past job combinations, why does it even matter in the context of XIV?

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Because the lore of the entire series is a huge part of how jobs work in XIV. Let's say we get the beastmaster as a new job for XIV, but it has absolutely nothing to do with animals or monsters. It's literally just a reskinned warrior with fluffy armor. No one would be happy with that because that's not really a beastmaster. But if the beastmaster had a pet of its own or could turn enemies against one another, that would be more appropriate (and that's what they did in XI). In fact, Tactics Advance had a nu mou-exclusive job called the morpher that would capture enemy monsters in order to temporarily become them in battle. I could see that being attributed to the beastmaster job, even though it isn't technically correct.

For the thread's topic, it would be wholly incorrect to give a revival spell to black mages because it goes against everything black mages are and have been in the entire series. XIV is essentially a love letter to all FINAL FANTASY fans and players, and giving black mages revival spells inherent to them would be much more like a slap in the face.

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Originally Posted by PrismaticDaybreak

Interesting that you would qualify that list "From VI alone" which is a misleading statement once you compare the number of support summons only from that game to the amount of support summons in the other games, the pool is small and one game is hardly enough to justify Summoners being a support machine.

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This is wholly incorrect. For all your so-called "research," you failed to see many things. In FINAL FANTASY XIII, an eidolon will automatically and always cast Arise if the summoner falls in battle if you're not using its Gestalt Mode. In FINAL FANTASY XII, espers had several healing and support magicks, including but not limited to Belias' Cura. Summoners in FINAL FANTASY XI had a great deal of support abilities. Guardian Forces in FINAL FANTASY VIII included Carbuncle (grants Reflect to the party) and Cerberus (grants Double and Triple to the party), not to mention Phoenix and the way GFs worked as a whole. In FINAL FANTASY IV, one of Rydia's eidolons is Asura, who always heals or buffs the party; she also has Sylph, who does wind damage to enemies and heals the party. In FINAL FANTASY IX, Eiko's Carbuncle buffs the party.

You want to talk about how summoners aren't related to white or black magic, yet nearly every summoner named or otherwise throughout the entire series has at least one support function. These facts and examples, in addition to posts already made, demonstrate that you simply do not know what you're talking about.

Even if BLM had raise it still wouldnt have the utility that the party wanted. Maybe if it gave Dreadspikes or Ice/Fire spikes then it would be on the right track.

I think the class is good the way it is.

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Originally Posted by Ceallach

words

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I didn't use XII, or XIII since the mechanics of summoning were vastly different than that of the archetypal Summoner from the rest of the games and more importantly doable by any character in the main cast and not limited to a select "job. Maybe instead of making a deliberate effort to be pompous you could realize I never said they were only offensive. I never said there were absolutely no support summons in the game. My point, again, is that any support/raising capabilities they have by virtue of summoning are completely independent from White or Black Magic which again, is the case in all the games I listed except for 3 or 4 you and Mr. Fish over there just can't seem to read and understand simple sentences. And wow, I didn't mention Carbuncle the one staple support summon since V my bad, don't fly off the handle about it.

As for XII's espers and their "numerous supportive magicks" (a flat out lie beyond the one healing spell each one of them has so that the summoner doesn't die and the summon isn't wasted) there's only one summon with any support spell and that's Zodiark with Hastega.

As for XIII's eidolons, them casting Arise is not damning evidence of how amazingly powerful Summoners are at Raising, that's beyond doubt a QoL feature since you trade the eidolon for two other party members, one of which was likely the one that healed you, otherwise literally every other ability that eidolons used while not in Gestalt mode is offensive or for tanking (Hecatoncheir and Alexander).

It's clear that you don't know what you're talking about.

Your list is paltry compared to the sheer amount of damage summons, as was Lambdas which again, only came from VI. But again that's not what my point was, since you guys keep missing it.

Yeah you guys keep cherry picking and ignoring the entire picture, which is that SMN is far more focused on damage than support and/or raising and, again, aren't going to be as good at it as RDM. And how many times do I have to remind you that Phoenix is not a White Magic spell? Not to mention anything like Phoenix doesn't stand a chance of being developed since its effect is Healer LB3 level.

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Originally Posted by TensaiSogetsu

No, just no. RDM and SMN already get enough crap from lazy healers, we don't need BLM carrying them too.

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I love how many people upvoted this "Lazy healers" rant. Perhaps after both healers burned swiftcast getting your durping buddy up for the 4th time they didn't want to slowcast raise during a tankbuster or AoE so that the other 3 dps (you included), their co-healer and the tanks can stay alive and keep pounding on the boss so they can get that damn raid/trial/derpfest over. Yea, asking a RDM or SMN to pick someone up... That's harsh, you should kick those healers. OMG, when healers want MP from BRDs or MCHs too - holy crap, those elitist PoS; don't you know I'm focusing on MY ROTATION? I don't have time to deal with all that!

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Originally Posted by PrismaticDaybreak

(insert flying off the handle because I'm wrong here)

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Yeah, I'm done taking you seriously.

On the topic, black mages should not get a revival ability, period.

As a caster main I hate it when healers expect me to raise. Please do NOT plague the BLM with the same issue.

And why do people expect us to have a swift raise all the time? All 3 casters "should be" burning Swiftcast for their DPS rotations anyways. Here's why casters burn Swiftcast almost on CD:

On BLM, you need it for burst movement when out of procs and Triple Cast is on CD. It is also used to fit in spells during specific windows (Squeeze 5 spells within Trick Attack instead of 4 with a Swift Cast after a proc). And finally "save" enochian after a mistimed Fire I or movement mess up.

On SMN you use Swiftcast to throw a Ruin IV during Summon Bahamut (as you don't want to hard cast anything when he's out to get more shock waves). You might want to use it to double weave certain spells during DWT. And sometimes you want to use it for changing summons if you're into that sort of "optimization" though that is too situational.

RDM SHOULD be forcing instant Aeros and Thunders with Swiftcast to fish for procs and/or manipulate the B/W mana bars.

If you think that a caster would have its Swiftcast available at whim for when both healers burn theirs raising baddies you're either a) just wrong, b) running with a baddie caster, c) running with a red mage.

Not to mention the heavy toll it already takes on SMN and RDM's MP bars. Specially SMN. They don't even have Piety as a stat unlike healers do so they have ~5k less MAX MP that's just about 2 raises. A raise from SMN means they lose mobility because no MP to spend on Ruin II and even worse: Potency loss because No Ruin 3. And before you say it "sucks", it's is still 50% more potency than Ruin.

Since we mentioned Ruin 3, let's talk GCD weight. A SMN may have the most leeway here because Ruin is a low potency GCD (100) and most of their damage comes from DoTs and instant oGCDs. SMN however tries to squeeze as many Ruin III's outside of DWT and raise kills the MP that they use for that. 3600 MP for raise means 4 Ruin 3's get replace with Ruin, that's 200 potency loss along with the GCD spent on it raise. Assuming it's replacing a Ruin, 300 potency AT LEAST.

A RDM will always trade off a 300 potency AND 11 b/w mana on the bar for Verraise. Doing simple napkin math to find out exactly how much the mana is worth, a melee combo is 160 (80/80) mana of black and white. A melee combo does 1520 potency over 7.7 seconds (3 GCDs worth), 11/160 = 6.9%. 6.9% of 1520 = 104.5. So by trading Veraero/Verthunder for a raise you lose 404.5 potency.

BLMs have a flipping 504 potency per GCD window while doing Fire IV and you do NOT want to mess with that. The fight is already doing it for you when mechanics seem to favor screwing ranged DPS.

On the other hand, a healer's GCD is either healing (probably prevents a death in the first place) or on a 240/250 Potency damage spell. With more mana to spare on the raise mind you. Hell WHM can raise for free.

Also what if the caster dies? Who's gonna raise them? Are we going to go to the tank forums next and ask for Paladins to have raise? I mean THEY make more sense to have it than black mages. Cecile had a raise. FFXI's PLD could raise too even though they didn't have the MP for it during combat, but that's besides the point. I mean it's not like PLD needs any more utility. And when PLD does get raise, shouldn't we go and say PLD has TOO much utility and DRK should get raise too? Because it would make sense the dark(edge) lord can raise with necromancy (if it made sense for BLM, it should for DRK too).... I KNOW! Let's give EVERYONE raise!

Yet again I've had a group blaming the wipes on me for playing BLMs when both healers died to the same mechanic at the same time..... every time! If THAT can happen, everything can happen I guess. :p

But quite honestly, a "static" that requires their caster to be throwing raises will never make enrages in fights that matter. People already jump off and wipe when a DPS dies too early in Savage V3 and V4. Raise is a DPS loss to both to the caster and the brought-back party member functions at 25% throughput. They die again, 50%. The "extra security" of having another raise causes people to be more lax and die more.

Even if a BLM did get a raise spell, the BLM will refuse to use it during Astral Fire for obvious reasons and you end up waiting on them to switch to blizzard, by then the healer might have gotten their swift back or just hard cast a raise. And quite honestly, a good SMN won't raise during DWT or while Bahamut is up. And one of those is up about 25~30% of the fight.

Please stop requesting silly changes when we have more important things like how physical dps synergy is far better than magical ones because tanks also deal physical (even though PLD's burst is magical). If you're worried about not being invited as a BLM, THIS is a real issue because statics are dropping casters altogether and the ones that take them put a "preference" to be able to also play MCH or BRD. I already changed my "off-spec" job from tank to MCH/BRD because of it to get loot. A decision I wouldn't have made if I didn't enjoy playing them, but I still prefer if my off-spec was a different role than DPS. But I had to weigh my options and learning BRD/MCH helps me more than getting a quick queue solo to expert roulette.

Cheers!
~ Phoenicia ~

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Originally Posted by Ceallach

(Insert undeserved snark and denial).

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Same to you.

I'll be fair and review black mages throughout the series as well.

• FINAL FANTASY's black mage had Haste and Temper.
• FINAL FANTASY XI's black mage had Blaze Spikes, Ice Spikes, and Shock Spikes.
• FINAL FANTASY XII: The Zodiac Age's black mage, represented by the Capricorn license board, could cast Bubble.

For support, that's really it, and that was my point all along. Summoners throughout the series are very capable of supporting the party. Black mages throughout the series are mostly not capable of supporting the party. That doesn't mean summoners aren't offensive mages, only that they're both offensive and support mages.

Maybe if certain people paid attention, they'd realize I was right all along.

You have some niche examples and a desperate desire to cling to your ideology, move on, you're wrong.

Also that's a false equivalency argument either way, Black mage isn't so Summoner is doesn't make sense. No, SMN is slightly capable of supporting the party. In 4, you have 2/16 summons that are "support" based, which the title can really only be granted to Asura since Sylphs damage and healing was so poor. In V, only Golem, Carbuncle and Phoenix although Phoenixs raising effect is limited to one party member. In VI, Summoning isn't tied to any particular character and the fact that any character can use them any means they needed to have more varied effects than the usual AoE damage, hence the slightly larger amount of support summons that show up almost nowhere else in the series. In VII there's only Phoenix. In VIII there's only Phoenix, Cerberus and Carbuncle and the way they "work" or their game mechanics that cause their junctioned character to have their stats increased in a certain direction (Same thing in VI) does not mean Summoners are support machines. In IX there's Carbuncle and Phoenix, and you can only use one variation of Carbuncle at a time, hardly a support machine. In X there's one of the sisters from Magus sisters, and nothing else supportive. XI is your one concrete example of being "very capable of supporting the party". XII they're 99% offensive. XIII they're 99% offensive.

Seriously get over yourself. You don't know what you're talking about.

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

Snip

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All said. Thank you!

*peeks at thread*

Yep, still don't want any kind of BLM Raise. With every other DoM Job resurrecting folks, it's nice having just one that isn't concerned with scraping corpses off the floor.

Be funny if a BLM could zombie someone for like 30 seconds. Actually that would be pretty neat in the event that both healers go down. Zombie one and it raises the other. Maybe if they get over healed it goes away? Lower it to 20 seconds?

I would actually be ok with somewhat of a dps loss for something like this.

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Originally Posted by Cynfael

*peeks at thread*

Yep, still don't want any kind of BLM Raise. With every other DoM Job resurrecting folks, it's nice having just one that isn't concerned with scraping corpses off the floor.

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Yeah, let's keep it at where BLM is the one that puts them on the floor in the first place! \o/

It's still a fact that black mages almost never carry support abilities/spells and summoners almost always do. It's also still a fact this thread is not about red mage, so no one cares if Verraise is "too good" or "just right" (so Daybreak's silly point about red mages reviving better than summoners doesn't matter whether it's true or not). It's also a fact that the lore built up from the entire FINAL FANTASY series is a huge indicator of how jobs in FINAL FANTASY XIV are developed. Finally, it's also still a fact that black mages in FINAL FANTASY XIV have too tight a rotation to justify any sort of party support beyond the occasional Mana Shift.

That really should settle everything.

The only reason I said anything is because Lambda had to go and whine about Red Mage having a useful non offensive support option. You had to go and try to prove your lore epeen and I didn't ask you nor did anyone else ask you to. Nor did i suggest BLM should get a raise (They should not.) I'm simply against the DPS equality raise argument.

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Originally Posted by PrismaticDaybreak

The only reason I said anything is because Lambda had to go and whine about Red Mage having a useful non offensive support option. You had to go and try to prove your lore epeen and I didn't ask you nor did anyone else ask you to. Nor did i suggest BLM should get a raise (They should not.) I'm simply against the DPS equality raise argument.

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You seemed to be arguing that summoners are offensive only. Maybe you should be more clear next time. And be less of a jerk.

BLM doesn't need a raise or other utility. It needs to keep its identity as the big damage DPS job for the casters, like SAM is for the melees. To that end, BLM and SMN are far, far too close together in damage with BLM having none of the utility and SMN on average doing as much or often more damage in boss fights.

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Originally Posted by Ceallach

You seemed to be arguing that summoners are offensive only. Maybe you should be more clear next time. And be less of a jerk.

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I blatantly said that I wasn't. Try not being so pompous next time. Remember you started the rude tone with your 'Perhaps next time you'll do a bit more research' comment. So don't act like some innocent princess when all you had to do was not be snarky to begin with. And also learn to read.

BLM needs a big dps increase, not a raise. It shouldnt be doing less damage than summoners. Period

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Originally Posted by Makrar

BLM needs a big dps increase, not a raise. It shouldnt be doing less damage then summoners. Period

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https://www.fflogs.com/statistics/17/#dataset=95

Thats true. At 95th percentile, I'd place them below MNK but above MCH. RDM is the lowest of the low in terms of DPS. It would put SMN about 6% ahead of RDM and 2% behind BLM(RDM 8% behind.) Maybe BLM could get 1% made up some where to get a 3% lead, but meh.

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Originally Posted by PrismaticDaybreak

I blatantly said that I wasn't. Try not being so pompous next time. Remember you started the rude tone with your 'Perhaps next time you'll do a bit more research' comment. So don't act like some innocent princess when all you had to do was not be snarky to begin with. And also learn to read.

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Look... I'd like to apologize. You're absolutely right. I should probably not get on the forums when I'm depressed or angry enough to consider jumping off a building (not that I'll literally do that ever). I was an idiot.

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Originally Posted by Ceallach

Look... I'd like to apologize. You're absolutely right. I should probably not get on the forums when I'm depressed or angry enough to consider jumping off a building (not that I'll literally do that ever). I was an idiot.

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It's alright, I probably shouldn't have gotten so hot headed either, I've been there and it sucks.

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Originally Posted by Makrar

BLM needs a big dps increase, not a raise. It shouldnt be doing less damage than summoners. Period

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This is the type of balancing that just gets revoked later.

You're either so high you're mandatory, or not high enough where it justifies losing the extras that other classes bring.

Black Mage needs something valuable to the party other than damage. Period.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

This is the type of balancing that just gets revoked later.

You're either so high you're mandatory, or not high enough where it justifies losing the extras that other classes bring.

Black Mage needs something valuable to the party other than damage. Period.

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Blm is the magical Sam. Both have high dmg in return for not having party utility. Problem is, Sam actually has the dps, Blm does no longer.
So either we need dps equal to Sam (yes some can keep up with them, but it's unusual) or we get some kind of utility and please NOT a raise. It's unneeded on Blm, it fits neither our rotation nor our lore. If you give us utility, give us a magic dmg buff or a magic resistance debuff.