Why is StormBlood full of dps that never aoe?

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Originally Posted by Yorumi

I've never understood why in a cooperative and team based game that expecting people to play cooperatively and on a team is some huge imposition.

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No stranger owes you anything so it's not their duty to wipe out mobs in a manner you see optimal. So as long as the job gets done, it doesn't matter.

There's a chat function, use it. Maybe, just maybe, the others will listen. It's not team work if one of the team members is huffing angrily at their monitor, planning on their next forum post.

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Originally Posted by Clethoria

No stranger owes you anything so it's not their duty to wipe out mobs in a manner you see optimal. So as long as the job gets done, it doesn't matter.

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And yet you act like the team owes it to the one player who doesn't want to play the way they do. Why is it not toxic if they disrupt 3 other people's gameplay but it is toxic to dare ask them to play a different way?

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Originally Posted by Clethoria

There's a chat function, use it. Maybe, just maybe, the others will listen. It's not team work if one of the team members is huffing angrily at their monitor, planning on their next forum post.

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And yet you just assume that anyone asking someone to aoe is automatically mean, toxic, and quote "huffing angirly at their monitor, planning out their next forum post." You're automatically assuming innocence on the part of a player who doesn't want to play the way the team does, in a team based game, and that it's the team players who are bad. Why? Every time people want to play better they're attacked and insulted, and yet bad, and disruptive players are coddled and treated as just the most wonderful innocent little snowflakes and that just so amazing to have in games. I don't get it.

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Originally Posted by Clethoria

No stranger owes you anything so it's not their duty to wipe out mobs in a manner you see optimal. So as long as the job gets done, it doesn't matter.

There's a chat function, use it. Maybe, just maybe, the others will listen. It's not team work if one of the team members is huffing angrily at their monitor, planning on their next forum post.

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If a DPS is not aoe'ing when the tank has 10 mobs on him, he's flat out not doing his job and risking a wipe.

In all honesty they should be kicked until they decide to learn their role in a team environment, but most people are too nice to do that.

If both DPS are bad I'll just flat out leave the group - like you said, I don't owe strangers anything.

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Originally Posted by Dregenfox

If a DPS is not aoe'ing when the tank has 10 mobs on him, he's flat out not doing his job and risking a wipe.

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But what if tank keeps running in huge circles with all those 10 mobs, and you can't really aoe them efficiently?

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Originally Posted by vp_cmc

But what if tank keeps running in huge circles with all those 10 mobs, and you can't really aoe them efficiently?

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Even if you're only hitting 3/10 of them it's still worth it LOL.

I've met a "pro" red mage who answered me "sigh, why do people still believe red mage is an aoe job... It's just not" after I asked him why he kept using monotarget spells during 5-6+ mobs pull.
He also replied "400>100"

I tried my best but I failed.

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Originally Posted by Sylvain

I've met a "pro" red mage who answered me "sigh, why do people still believe red mage is an aoe job... It's just not" after I asked him why he kept using monotarget spells during 5-6+ mobs pull.
He also replied "400>100"

I tried my best but I failed.

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That's just sad...

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Originally Posted by vp_cmc

But what if tank keeps running in huge circles with all those 10 mobs, and you can't really aoe them efficiently?

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Eh, if the circles are small enough, that's actually better for mob-centric radius AoEs, because it keeps them all tightly packed while moving. They will spread out based on their hit boxes when stationary.

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Originally Posted by vp_cmc

But what if tank keeps running in huge circles with all those 10 mobs, and you can't really aoe them efficiently?

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The healer better hope the tank is running circles around the mobs without moving them much, that means he is avoiding AoEs.

this thread has turned into MIN/MAX mathwizards Vs Get it done/idontcare
.. I'm casting my vote with the getitdone/idontcare side.
I don't heal, but I tank. if we get a dungeon done in 30 minutes or less, hell i probably wont see you again. Enjoy your tomes and have fun.

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Originally Posted by Shihen

This is probably the only community where a debate over whether 100 x 3 is better than 250 x 1 can reach 16 pages.

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Quoted for truth. This is literally the only community I've ever seen where people will go to such great lengths to justify holding back the party for personal enjoyment reasons.

Although I'm in the 'get it over with/get it done' camp, but then again, I'm literally a high tier Bard that does nuclear-tier damage that can pretty much carry so hard that nobody even notices that the co-DPS is actually only doing like 300-500 DPS higher than the tank in an expert roulette dungeon. Which has become depressingly common as of late. I'm not going to hold the party back by wasting time arguing with such people, and instead hope that making it really obvious through my performance that they're getting carried by a Bard of all things would spur them to improve.

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Originally Posted by Sylvain

I've met a "pro" red mage who answered me "sigh, why do people still believe red mage is an aoe job... It's just not" after I asked him why he kept using monotarget spells during 5-6+ mobs pull.
He also replied "400>100"

I tried my best but I failed.

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That person puts shame to the Red Mage community, lol
They are so clueless.
I guess they removed scatter from their hotbar also, haha

Is this an issue? I've rarely had a problem with dungeons post-60 DPS not AoEing . . . I've probably gotten lucky finding good DPS on Duty Finder then haha.

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Originally Posted by SaitoHikari

Quoted for truth. This is literally the only community I've ever seen where people will go to such great lengths to justify holding back the party for personal enjoyment reasons.

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Depends entirely on what the 3x100 entails. I'm pretty sure Samurais for example do more by alternating between maintaining their buffs and using the basic AoE skills.

on Mach, the TP cost is hard to justify on just three targets.

Black mages, T3 over T4 on 3 targets allows you to rapid fire Thunderclouds, where T4 on 3 has a low chance for it. Flare has significant downtime and while it's basically Fire 4 - 15% per target, you can rapid fire Fire 4s compared to Flare Flare transposes.

Not to mention, based on the pack itself, if you have two weak creatures and one beefy creature, you might as well focus down the Beef with single target and let natural cleaves such as Foul, Death Flare, and other abilities deal with the weaker adds.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Depends entirely on what the 3x100 entails. I'm pretty sure Samurais for example do more by alternating between maintaining their buffs and using the basic AoE skills.

on Mach, the TP cost is hard to justify on just three targets.

Black mages, T3 over T4 on 3 targets allows you to rapid fire Thunderclouds, where T4 on 3 has a low chance for it. Flare has significant downtime and while it's basically Fire 4 - 15% per target, you can rapid fire Fire 4s compared to Flare Flare transposes.

Not to mention, based on the pack itself, if you have two weak creatures and one beefy creature, you might as well focus down the Beef with single target and let natural cleaves such as Foul, Death Flare, and other abilities deal with the weaker adds.

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Yeah, of course there are exceptions.

We're referring to people who aren't even trying and won't even consider this kind of thing anyway.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Depends entirely on what the 3x100 entails. I'm pretty sure Samurais for example do more by alternating between maintaining their buffs and using the basic AoE skills.

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Yeah, don't forget the TP cost. SAM AoE costs basically 300 every 2 GCDs. Even with Invigorate I can't go more than 8 even with using Tekka. Hard to justify that TP cost on less than 5 mobs when Tekka+Kyuten are preferred AoE filler.

SAM GCD AoE is the least sustainable in the game.

As a Bard I don't aoe because they took away the aoe attack I loved to use. The one I have left is a cone, and the second is always on cooldown...

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Originally Posted by AlphaSonic

Stop deflecting. You were given the data and you've been called out, move on or continue rambling.

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I think it comes down to killing 4 mobs at a rate of 80 potency, vs killing 1 mob at a rate of 200+ potency. The 200+ potency version will die much quicker. Rather than have 4 mobs doing damage all at once on the tank, by removing individual targets faster, you reduce that damage being done faster.

So yeah 4 targets at 80 potency is more over all damage, but you still have 4 things hitting at full strength for longer. it's damage mitigation rather than raw damage output.

If I see DPS single target on large pulls, I generally try to spin them around so they can't hit positionals out of spite.

AoE was designed to be a DPS gain, and if people don't use it, they're just bad. No excuses.

Here's the thing. A mob at 1 health hits just as hard as a mob at several thousand health. So, the question is, is doing 100 X 3 really better for the party that 250 X 1?

Yes, I understand math. 300 dps is higher than 250; but, individually each mob took only 100 damage. Therefore, each mob will take longer to die.*

Meanwhile, if you single target one of the three mobs, that particular mob will die quicker and the party will take less damage overall because there are less mobs doing damage. The situation is not as clear cut as many posters are making it. There is a difference between doing maximum dps and doing effective dps.

Now, my standard approach to the challenge of facing multiple mobs at once is to do both AoE and direct damage. I apply DoT spells to as many mobs as I can then focus fire on the tank's current target. However, if the tank and the healer are both comfortable with the tank taking more damage, then I go nuts with the AoE spells. Because what damage dealer doesn't love seeing lots of numbers on their screen?;)

*A lot depends on how much health the mobs have also. Certainly, if you can kill all the mobs in one or two casts of your big AoE spell, then it is more effective to AoE. Like so many other things, it's a judgement call based on the situation you are facing and the information you have at hand.

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Originally Posted by uberrod9

So yeah 4 targets at 80 potency is more over all damage, but you still have 4 things hitting at full strength for longer. it's damage mitigation rather than raw damage output.

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Fewer things hitting the tank, the less they have to lean on tank stance. At 3- mobs as tank I hop into Deliverance/sword oath entirely(Unless I'm with a SCH at which point I'm already in Deliv) and mop up with both ST and free AoE.

I always AoE if there's enough targets for it to be a DPS increase.

The single target OGCDs are usually enough to make one of them die considerably sooner then the others.

While I agree that fewer targets will help ease a tank into dropping their tank stance.... the gain from a tank stance swapping and a DPS not utilizing their abilities to do the most damage is NOT a good deal.

I DPS on a bard so its a little easy for me, we've got a really good setup for AoEs. Apply some dots, go into a song, AoE your heart out. Ballad for the insane MT damage, Minuet gives some nice ST burst and Paeon is manageable thanks to our TWO TP refreshers. I can see some other classes arguments but for the most part, 99% of the time, AoE is better and DPSing at max potency is always going to be better than a tank stance swapping.

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Originally Posted by Kwoon

always going to be better than a tank stance swapping.

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TIL 120 down scaling x 4 is more DPS than 300 x 3 without downscaling. I don't follow your math frankly, but whatever you say!

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

TIL 120 down scaling x 4 is more DPS than 300 x 3 without downscaling. I don't follow your math frankly, but whatever you say!

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Considering you've spent the better part of this thread arguing why MCH AoE is inadequate compared to their single target, it isn't very surprising to me that you don't get the point they were making.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

TIL 120 down scaling x 4 is more DPS than 300 x 3 without downscaling. I don't follow your math frankly, but whatever you say!

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Take a Paladin for example. His AoE options are Scorn (100 pot) and Eclipse (120 pot.) Being in tank stance, he loses 20% to his damage output, or 20 pot and 24 respectively. Say there are 5 enemies, is having the DPS in the party focus on ST rather than use their AoEs REALLY mathematically greater because of 20 and 24 potency? I doubt it.
The "mitigation" argument makes 0 sense when you try to put a 20% loss of Scorn or Eclipse vs. a DPS using their AoE. It just doesn't add up to near the same amount. Probably could have made it a bit more clear the first time around but I'm talking specifically about people who say their DPS should ST so the tank can drop stance quicker since they'll be picking off targets more quickly. The whole lot will go down quicker since tank damage sucks, they're you know... meat shields.

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Originally Posted by Kwoon

The whole lot will go down quicker since tank damage sucks, they're you know... meat shields.

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Warrior, Sextuple Decimate. 300 potency flat, buffed to 400, no down scaling, and hits for a ridiculously massive chunk of damage.

For comparison, my melded Samurai at I315 Oka/Man hits for a measly 1-2k. Tekka hits for 6k, and also drops off really hard at 10% a mob.

Warrior Decimate at I310? 7-8k. Per target. Not to mention Oka/Man both downscale by 10% for each hit, while Decimate is under no such restraints.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

Warrior Decimate at I310? 7-8k. Per target. Not to mention Oka/Man both downscale by 10% for each hit, while Decimate is under no such restraints.

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Okay, now explain to me how that supports the argument that DPS focusing down ST damage allows a tank to do more damage? A good War will use his cool downs to make that possible WHILE the group is still up since that = more damage. I mean, fair enough, point made that tanks can whip out some burst damage but they don't sustain it and they don't equal up to the overall amount a dps puts out. They aren't designed that way and you have to play the class poorly to do so. TO BE CLEAR (since you like to pull little snipits of what I say out) that isn't to say tanks dont contribute damage. Paladin Holy Spirit Spam adds up too, but the DPS shouldn't have to drop overall dps so I can do it, its easy enough to manage through my cooldowns.

I'd like to point out that while Dark Knight seems to have some overarching problems remaining lately, AoE is not one of them. It's been one of the more complex and enjoyable things I've done in this game to pull off a successful Quietus + Blood Weapon pull, which actually INCREASES Dark Knight's defensive ability the more things they can AoE. Adding blood weapon means they're not sacrificing offense either, and with the correct amount of healer and DPS AoE, constant draining, Blackest Night, and mitigation coverage, huge huge pulls just, well, disappear.

It's not easy, and mistakes can tend to be fatal, or at least cause the healer undue stress (I consider balancing speed of group leadership between healer compensation a part of a tank's job). Even if one were to remain in Grit however, it stands to reason Dark Knight as a class suffers if one were to not take advantage of their AoE capability.

When everyone's not on the same page with these things, it reduces enjoyment for people who are trying to play their class to the fullest. While the opposite is true too, some just want to stroll through a dungeon and have a very uncomplicated and routine trip to get things done after a hard day at work, or to not split their attention too much, etc.
And that's absolutely fine, but I feel the standard should be set higher so that people remember that yes, the jobs in these games are capable of fun and surprising things, and to make exceptions when necessary.

As a DRG, i AOE on pulls of 3 targets or more, while weaving in BotD/LotD stacks to Nastrond. Less than 3 targets and the single target DPS rotation is better.

Anything above 3 targets = aoe (sometimes even 4), 3 or less it is just faster and more efficient to single target

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Originally Posted by Maero

Anything above 3 targets = aoe (sometimes even 4), 3 or less it is just faster and more efficient to single target

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Nah, as long as you don't run out of tp and get enough tp back before the next pull, all jobs aoe @ 3 targets. MNK even should do rockbreaker @ 2 unless they're going to last long enough for demolish to go full duration.

So yeah there are some cases/places where you would still aoe 3 targets. Ala Mhigo comes to mind, if your tank breaks up the mobs before that first wall and you do the last 3 by themselves. (Though, if nobody's undergeared they shouldn't be doing that, so then the first pull = 8 mobs)

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Originally Posted by SuperZay

And then I just leave before the first boss. I can't stand people not knowing how to press more than 2 buttons anymore.

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well you can say similar things about tanks who overestimate themselves... pulling half of the dng pointing on the dds to "kill quick" but loosing half of the mob aggro after a Deathflare or Blm Flare always makes me angry... IF a tank want it the "HW" way than be sure to handle the mob - Im way more carefully nowadays with aoe burst not because its "worthless" but if tanks can't keep the control over a fight than the dds have to slow down or the healer will have really hard time.

There are unskilled player and lazy ones on both sides. if dds make (and you surely do since SB aggro adjustments) bad experience with tanks who can't hold their stuff its just natural to hold full aoe dmg a bit back. yesterday I died 3 times in ex cause of overmobbing dunno if it was the tanks fault or the healer ones but yet alone the fact that they haven't even tried to take smaller ones while blaming me (smn) and the Blm for "not being fast enough", while the healer was tanking 2 mobs as well, was just like wtf?!...

indeed there are "lazy" dds if it comes to aoe rota but some of them just don't want to tank half of the mob after an impact skill... : /

As a caster for me it is faster to just single target 3 or less, anything above is more worthwhile to aoe. This is especially the case with blm since we can nuke stuff fast, and also faster on my Red Mage.

I see Ninjas death blossom 2 targets (usually i am mellee also those times) and think to myself ok you are waisting time and tp so no goad for you

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

Warrior, Sextuple Decimate. 300 potency flat, buffed to 400, no down scaling, and hits for a ridiculously massive chunk of damage.

For comparison, my melded Samurai at I315 Oka/Man hits for a measly 1-2k. Tekka hits for 6k, and also drops off really hard at 10% a mob.

Warrior Decimate at I310? 7-8k. Per target. Not to mention Oka/Man both downscale by 10% for each hit, while Decimate is under no such restraints.

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So you're saying that an attack that at best has an 2.8x multiplier compared to SAM AoE can hit for 8x the damage with worse gear? Hmmm...

And no, Berserk will not get you anywhere near that. Not to mention Decimate with Berserk is "only" 382 compared to 396 Jinpu Tenka.

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Originally Posted by Maero

As a caster for me it is faster to just single target 3 or less, anything above is more worthwhile to aoe. This is especially the case with blm since we can nuke stuff fast, and also faster on my Red Mage.

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B4 T4 F3 F4 F4 Flare Flare is the highest PPS rotation on two targets with BLM. Mana ticks, though.

lol i did not talk about rotations, i just said in most cases to aoe 3 targets is not very optimal, 4 or more is better when aoeing
I do not disagree with what you posted tough

Reading this thread makes me wonder how people are so clueless when it comes to elementary level maths.

Also surprised to see how many people seem to have TP troubles, generally you AoE until you have about 500 TP, then Invigorate, when you are at around 200-300 TP with no Invig and some mobs are standing, begin finishing them off with single target, if you are out of tp and still trying to AoE that is mostly inefficient. Natually each class is gonna have different means of AoE and how effective it is ranges from job to job, you get a feel for it and work from there.

Its really not that complicated.

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Originally Posted by Tizzy_Tormentor

Reading this thread makes me wonder how people are so clueless when it comes to elementary level maths.

Also surprised to see how many people seem to have TP troubles, generally you AoE until you have about 500 TP, then Invigorate, when you are at around 200-300 TP with no Invig and some mobs are standing, begin finishing them off with single target, if you are out of tp and still trying to AoE that is mostly inefficient. Natually each class is gonna have different means of AoE and how effective it is ranges from job to job, you get a feel for it and work from there.

Its really not that complicated.

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Wrong.

Once the potency per gcd and potency per tp spent is higher than single target, aoeing even out of tp is still a better way to spend your remaining Tp even if it feels awfull.

AoE skills are weak and it's easier and faster to kill enemies with other skills. Why do people keep whining about AoE? Good god.

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Originally Posted by Unscene

The potency number for the single-target skill is bigger than the potency number for the AoE skill.

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why does this have more likes than the ops post the forums are truely sad