Extreme Undercutting - Should it be a violation?

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Originally Posted by Jybril

Did you happen to notice he REPORTED HIMSELF?
I think that should be the staple of this topic. I laughed so dang hard man. XDDDD

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That's a big part of the reason I had to read it 4 times.

No it shouldnt be bannable. I mean, ive been playing world of warcraft since end of vanilla. No one ever got banned for extreme undercutting. If people, for example, were selling an item for 10000 gold range price, and another person came along and sold that item for 1000gold, people would just rush to buy it and resell it for original price. So people that undercut are just silly, not malicious. Im sure this happens in FFXIV too. I, too, have bought items that were extremely undercut and resold em for full price, making profit out of nowhere.

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Originally Posted by Nhisso

You seem to have some serious psychological problems. Not even being funny.
Get help.
P.s.: anyone crying about undercutting needs to get a lofe. Just wow.

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Says the guy that first complained about in game fates, then the queue time of dungeons, because you wanted to play that big bad dps. What makes you think, that your complaint or starting topics about non sense, is more important or not being some kind of crying, in comparison to this one? Case closed.

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Originally Posted by LunaFaye

Says the guy that first complained about in game fates, then the queue time of dungeons, because you wanted to play that big bad dps. What makes you think, that your complaint or starting topics about non sense, is more important or not being some kind of crying, in comparison to this one? Case closed.

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While he is right that I do need therapy (which I am in the process of receiving), a lot of this stems from my way of thinking (and when you've had that thinking process for 15 years straight, it isn't as simple as just changing it). I treat rules in a very black and white way, and it's either "I broke the rules" or "I haven't broke the rules". Funnily enough though, when I started this thread, I was on the waiting list for therapy but hadn't received any.

EDIT: As a follow-up to these unhelpful thinking styles, this lists them all. I wonder how many of these apply to how I felt regarding this situation...

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Originally Posted by Niraves

I think its a free market and if Random Player # 4907 wants to sell the same fish as you for 1/10th the price, he has every right to do so. Is it stupid? Yep. Is it annoying? Yep. Is there anything likely to be done about it? Nope!

And no, I don't think extreme undercutting should get someone banned. What you consider 'extreme' might not be a big deal to them, and banning someone for posting an auction is just.. well its as dumb as the undercutting itself.

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Not to mention It's supposed to be a "Free market" Once you start banning people just because you don't like their prices and start forcing uniform prices you turn into communist scum.

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Originally Posted by RaizeGraymalkin

I undercut by one gil every damn time and I'll keep doing it. Happens to me plenty so I do it in return.

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Ill do 100k and more if i get undercutted. This stuff is super easy to make and i just dont care

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Originally Posted by Nhisso

You seem to have some serious psychological problems. Not even being funny.
Get help.
P.s.: anyone crying about undercutting needs to get a lofe. Just wow.

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Says the guy who was crying about dungeons times and what not. You should follow your own advice and get a "lofe" as well

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Originally Posted by hynaku

why don't you just buy items then sell them at a higher price. problem fixed. When I sell items look at the history and sell them around price that most of them sold at.

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That doesnt work all the time. There are players who do absolutely nothing but crafting and will put up another just as it sells

If anyone has a problem with undercutting, they can buy the stuff themselves and sell it.

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Originally Posted by Nixxe

It would probably actually lower the supply and raise prices, especially as people grow increasingly frustrated with the seller-side of things and stop participating. Undercutting is essentially the vehicle through which competition lowers prices, so if you take that away, don't expect prices to go down.

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Not necessarily. On occasion, even if there may only be one seller, there will be situations where the price is just too high. If the that solitary seller wants their items to sell, they really have two choices. Either wait it out, on the off chance that someone will be willing to spend that high a price, or lower the price to attract more potential buyers.

From personal experience, if the difference between making a sale monthly or weekly is a 25% price drop, and there is still enough profit to merit the investment, I'm more than willing to lower my own prices (with or without competition being present).

Undercutting is a mechanism of competition as was mentioned before.

Thinking it should be a bannable offense though just because it's irritating to some is simply ridiculous. Look at the market from the consumers/buyers perspective. People that sell stuff for large sums are the irritating ones. So now we can't sell for low, nor can we sell for high...and whatever price you sell whatever at, it'll fit either of these.

In real life there are regulations that prohibit severe undercutting...yes. But they have a very important reason. Limited resources. You can't have any income by selling items for more than it cost you to make them, so the absolute lowest you can go en masse is to even out your costs to make em (or give for "free", which is effectively charity and not sale). If you sell for less than it did cost you to make, then it's either to get rid of something that failed to sell for a LONG time (which is acceptable) or try to destroy your small-time competition (which is NOT acceptable) with your overwhelming budget. As such, with real-life situations, it is very easy to prove who had malicious intent.
In game, the cost of making anything is zero (since you can get every single thing in this game without spending a single gil). You cannot possibly sell something for less than it did cost you (or rather, how it COULD cost you), since you can't sell for negative...as in you paying others to take it.

In other words, no. There is zero reason to complain about people undercutting, as there is zero reason for people driving the prices up. In the end, it is the supply and demand, supported by inflation, that will bring the general price to what the item is "worth", per see. In other words, the only thing Square Enix SHOULD do is control the inflation by money sinks and careful implementation of gil generation. Everything else WILL work itself out if this one thing will be properly done.

I sold 2 Bismarck minions at 5 mil on my server

Then when I listed the 3rd, someone went there and put his for 2.8 MIL
Was I angry? you can bet your soul I was. I paid 2.6 on an expanse baleen and that guy KILLED my ENTIRE profit margin AT ONCE. And price for the minion NEVER came back up again. Then other people came undercutting THAT guy and I ended up selling it at 2.4 mil. I was expecting a 2 mil profit, instead got a 200k loss. Probably from some guy who got the baleen on a drop and didn't know you need to factor in the price of materials when selling stuff.

(actually, apparently NOBODY does that in this game, BTW. I see stuff like a bloodhempen cloth that take 12 plants to make being sold at 20~30% less than the value of 12 plants. It's kinda absurd)

Did I complain about it in my FC, my linkshells, facebook groups? yes I did.
Was I extremely angry and frustrated? yes I was. Did I want to go to that guy's house and punch him in the face? yes I did.

But I didn't think for a second about reporting. As much a dickish move as it were, it was not illegal.

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Originally Posted by AlexionSkylark

-Snip-

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A lot of the materials(cloths mostly) that I end up selling come from my retainers. Do I undercut people? Not usually. I tend to look at what the last ones sold for(look at the last 10 most of the time), and what it currently is at. If they only sold at lower than currently on the board, I might lower my price from what is currently available by 10%, if that much. Normally I just do it to the nearest 100 for things selling for over 1k, and nearest 1,000 for over 10k, etc.

Finding a new reason to report, harass, and remove players from the game seems alot more malicious and bannable to me than undercutting.

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Originally Posted by Paladinleeds

EDIT2: snippet.

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I can understand both sides to be honest. I'm a crafter and I'm playing on Balmung, the most populated server in this game. The competition is extremely fierce and it can be really difficult to turn a profit because of that at times. If I were you I wouldn't neccessarily assume that people do it to crash the market. Instead some people simply know that the market is going to crash soon so they put up items with a huge undercut because in their mind doing that means that they can at least turn some profit before the Market completely crashes. I'm not sure what server you're playing on, but on Balmung it usually takes a day or two until the market naturally crashes on its own.

So to give you an example: I put something up on the MB like 2 hours after a big patch. I put it in for 10m cause no one else is selling said item yet. 2 hours later another person wants to sell the same item. They know that the market is probably going to crash soon as more players are getting their hands on the same item. So they put theirs in for like 3m. They sell it for 3m instantly cause Player X thinks this is a good deal. Fast forward to the next day: A good chunk of players now has this item and the price went down to 1m or less.

So even though huge undercuts sometimes don't seem to make sense at first glance on some servers they actually do make sense.

It's posts like the OP's that make me weep for humanity's future. Then I see the responses, and my faith is slowly restored.

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Originally Posted by Coratanni

It's posts like the OP's that make me weep for humanity's future. Then I see the responses, and my faith is slowly restored.

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But here's the thing, people have put forward the reasons why, so I'm in agreement now that it shouldn't be an offence, but the mods won't close/delete it for some reason even though I've asked them to.

Basically, what you are asking is to be able to force people to sell their items for what you think they should be sold for.
I don't think that is ok, it's a free market.
Over time, the value of everything decreases because they become more abundant. Heck, Normal crafting Clusters were 10k each at one point in time.

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Originally Posted by Niqote

Basically, what you are asking is to be able to force people to sell their items for what you think they should be sold for.
I don't think that is ok, it's a free market.
Over time, the value of everything decreases because they become more abundant. Heck, Normal crafting Clusters were 10k each at one point in time.

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Why would it be about me trying to force people to sell at my prices when someone said I was griefing by undercutting by such a high amount hence me reporting myself - the key word being myself. I am the one who tried to get the GMs to ban for this. Not anybody else, me. And like I said in my last post, I'm in agreement now reading the reasons that it shouldn't be the case. Can I use this thread as a valid reason for SE to permanently ban my entire SE account? Because that feels like that is what needs to happen. Make an example out of me.

Yes what AlexionSkylark said is what I experience a few times a day with the new 320 crafted stuff. It's always the same person for me killing the prices, I want to punch them so hard. 3m+ undercuts. Weaver almost useless for profit now with the 320 legs costing under 1m, when the materials are over 1m

I'm the opposite. If anything I'd like people to be forced to undercut more than 1 gil. I hate scanning through listings to see dozens of 1 gil undercuts that people just sit at the board all day relisting. I'd prefer they made it so you have to undercut an item by at least 1% if you're listing under the lowest price, and make it so you cant constantly take items off and relist them, at least not without some kind of fee.

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Originally Posted by Paladinleeds

But here's the thing, people have put forward the reasons why, so I'm in agreement now that it shouldn't be an offence, but the mods won't close/delete it for some reason even though I've asked them to.

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Sometimes your Thread just needs to be a warning for others. :D

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Originally Posted by Charlayy

That doesnt work all the time. There are players who do absolutely nothing but crafting and will put up another just as it sells

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If they can keep it up indefinitely then the price was too high to start with.

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Originally Posted by Pells

If they can keep it up indefinitely then the price was too high to start with.

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That's not actually true. It simply means that the demand isn't high enough to overtake their ability to acquire materials in whatever manner allows them to do that. They could just be selling things at cost or perhaps they're farming the mats themselves and selling the item at under cost because they don't understand that farmed items were not free. They could even take a loss on it, but simply be making money back elsewhere that keeps them from realizing it.

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Originally Posted by Nixxe

That's not actually true. It simply means that the demand isn't high enough to overtake their ability to acquire materials in whatever manner allows them to do that. They could just be selling things at cost or perhaps they're farming the mats themselves and selling the item at under cost because they don't understand that farmed items were not free. They could even take a loss on it, but simply be making money back elsewhere that keeps them from realizing it.

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You say that "they're farming the mats themselves" and then that "they don't understand that farmed items were not free"...This is illogical.

Farming materials themselves does, indeed, make materials free. You don't spend any gil on that. You can then proceed to sell those materials and turn your "time investment" into money directly, or you can use them to craft something and then sell that.

In real life, large companies do indeed start producing their own stuff for sale. Look at any large shop brand. They have their own brands, because every step between harvesting resources and selling the finished product that you do yourself (on a large scale), the lower the costs. And the lower the costs, the more you can undercut competition that buys equivalent products for sale from others, thus being more attractive to the consumers without actually losing the profit margin. In a game it's just so extreme since there is literally no cost associated with your own gathering-resources and crafting portions at all (other than your time, of course).

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Originally Posted by kikix12

You say that "they're farming the mats themselves" and then that "they don't understand that farmed items were not free"...This is illogical.

Farming materials themselves does, indeed, make materials free. You don't spend any gil on that. You can then proceed to sell those materials and turn your "time investment" into money directly, or you can use them to craft something and then sell that.

In real life, large companies do indeed start producing their own stuff for sale. Look at any large shop brand. They have their own brands, because every step between harvesting resources and selling the finished product that you do yourself (on a large scale), the lower the costs. And the lower the costs, the more you can undercut competition that buys equivalent products for sale from others, thus being more attractive to the consumers without actually losing the profit margin. In a game it's just so extreme since there is literally no cost associated with your own gathering-resources and crafting portions at all (other than your time, of course).

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They don't do it because it's free; they do it because the opportunity cost is smaller than the actual cost.

Your parenthesis contains the entire crux of the argument; your time has intrinsic value in that doing something means you aren't doing something else.

Ironically, you are the perfect proof of exactly the quote you claim is illogical.

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You say that "they're farming the mats themselves" and then that "they don't understand that farmed items were not free"...This is illogical.

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Originally Posted by Furious

Your parenthesis contains the entire crux of the argument; your time has intrinsic value in that doing something means you aren't doing something else.

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That's a calculatory cost however, not a real one. Which leads to fun results:
Let's say you have two activities. A brings in a net 1 gil. B brings in a net 3 gil. Both require the same amount of time/effort/materials/PropertyPlantEquipment/whatever

In reality, you gain 1 gil every time you do A and 3 gil every time you do B. But if you account for opportunity cost, you are actually losing 2 gil every time you do A, because you could have done B with that same effort instead. That means that even though you are gaining money at a steady rate, you are making calculatory losses. These losses however do in no way compromise your ability to gain money - You can keep amassing them indefinitely, because you are still gaining money in reality.

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Originally Posted by Zojha

That's a calculatory cost however, not a real one. Which leads to fun results:
Let's say you have two activities. A brings in a net 1 gil. B brings in a net 3 gil. Both require the same amount of time/effort/materials/PropertyPlantEquipment/whatever

In reality, you gain 1 gil every time you do A and 3 gil every time you do B. But if you account for opportunity cost, you are actually losing 2 gil every time you do A, because you could have done B with that same effort instead. That means that even though you are gaining money at a steady rate, you are making calculatory losses. These losses however do in no way compromise your ability to gain money - You can keep amassing them indefinitely, because you are still gaining money in reality.

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I'm trying to do some mental gymnastics to determine any way in which the two are different. The only difference is that you don't have to have the capital beforehand to farm the items; in every other way, the outcome is the same. You lose 2 gil for every unit of time you spend doing A rather than B. You can define it however you like; that is the real world outcome of that action.

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Originally Posted by Furious

They don't do it because it's free; they do it because the opportunity cost is smaller than the actual cost.

Your parenthesis contains the entire crux of the argument; your time has intrinsic value in that doing something means you aren't doing something else.

Ironically, you are the perfect proof of exactly the quote you claim is illogical.

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The problem with this post is you assume people know how to value their time, most do not know how to do that. This is even more true when someone simply gets said item because they where lucky doing 1 run for WT.

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Originally Posted by Princess_Momoka

The problem with this post is you assume people know how to value their time, most do not know how to do that. This is even more true when someone simply gets said item because they where lucky doing 1 run for WT.

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Therein lies the heart of the issue. I'm a maths person yes, but that's raw maths, not economics. So the nuances that come alongside the economics escape me. And economics are a quite difficult thing from what I can see, so it's easy to understand why most people don't get it. I understand things a little better thanks to the mature discussions held in this thread (yes, there has been mature discussion here alongside all the not so nice responses), but I'm still far from truly getting it. And then when we account for those who don't use the forums, this information would not be brought to their light as easily, so unless people speak with them about it, it keeps the knowledge gap in circulation.

And then, there's those that don't wish to pursue max profit, and as such, they would gather everything themselves, craft everything themselves, etc. If they don't factor their time into the cost (let's say they don't consider it worth paying for their time, because they're not pursuing max profit), it does lend credulence to the undercutting. That being said, the supercrafters, who can farm them out non stop, will be able to beat them on economics of scale.

As for the WT edit you added in, that definitely plays a part of it too. But, i think the economics of scale would help balance that out.

I don't really craft or gather too much, but when I get an item with some value, I will undercut by 10 to 25 percent just to move it.

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Originally Posted by Princess_Momoka

The problem with this post is you assume people know how to value their time, most do not know how to do that. This is even more true when someone simply gets said item because they where lucky doing 1 run for WT.

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More importantly this is a game I use for entertainment so the value of my time is the same whether I'm running dungeons or farming materials.

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Originally Posted by Claviusnex

More importantly this is a game I use for entertainment so the value of my time is the same whether I'm running dungeons or farming materials.

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This proves my point. If you are choosing to farm for gil over gaining exp, how much gil/hr do you need for it to become worth it? For example, I may value 1 mil exp / hr over 100k gil /hr. (not real exact since exp gain is hugely different 1-49, vs 50-60, vs 60-61, vs 61-70. but just go with it) If I did not manage to get that drop in 1 hr and leave empty handed, that is time lost. Unless you are magically playing in some weird universe where you have endless time, time should be a value for you in what you do and what is worth doing.

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Originally Posted by Paladinleeds

Therein lies the heart of the issue. I'm a maths person yes, but that's raw maths, not economics. So the nuances that come alongside the economics escape me. And economics are a quite difficult thing from what I can see, so it's easy to understand why most people don't get it. I understand things a little better thanks to the mature discussions held in this thread (yes, there has been mature discussion here alongside all the not so nice responses), but I'm still far from truly getting it. And then when we account for those who don't use the forums, this information would not be brought to their light as easily, so unless people speak with them about it, it keeps the knowledge gap in circulation.

And then, there's those that don't wish to pursue max profit, and as such, they would gather everything themselves, craft everything themselves, etc. If they don't factor their time into the cost (let's say they don't consider it worth paying for their time, because they're not pursuing max profit), it does lend credulence to the undercutting. That being said, the supercrafters, who can farm them out non stop, will be able to beat them on economics of scale.

As for the WT edit you added in, that definitely plays a part of it too. But, i think the economics of scale would help balance that out.

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I am not sure what being on the forums has to do anything. I only came recently because inventory issues sicken me. I tried get a Divine Benison discussion going but I given up on that. You should not need the forums to notice you do not have time to do everything, you need to pick and chose at some point. Example people salvage a lot so they do not have time to gather and minimally craft, so they will most likely buy materials off the MB and not farm the raw themselves.

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Originally Posted by Princess_Momoka

This proves my point. If you are choosing to farm for gil over gaining exp, how much gil/hr do you need for it to become worth it? For example, I may value 1 mil exp / hr over 100k gil /hr. (not real exact since exp gain is hugely different 1-49, vs 50-60, vs 60-61, vs 61-70. but jsut go with it) If I did not manage to get that drop in 1 hr and leave empty handed, that is time lost. Unless you are magically playing in some weird universe where you have endless time, time should be a value for you in what you do and what is worth doing.

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What I'm saying is there is no difference in the value of the time at all. I play the game for entertainment and what I'm doing at any given time is what I feel like being entertained by. If I decide to gather it doesn't matter if I get ten items or one hundred as I am there to enjoy gathering. The game isn't a job with some return on investment point in a spreadsheet. The only intrinsic value on my time is how it relates to real life. In real life I'm retired but still consult. When consulting my time does have a value at $250/hr. When I'm not consulting, relaxing and enjoying my free time it is priceless.

In FFXI manipulating the price of an item has been a bannable RMT offense since like 2006.

Sorry OP, but no. Using my usual line when posters post this at WoW, no it should not be a violation. It is a player driven economy and should be handled by the players. Instead of wasting time with a GM you could have bought those items and Resold them at you Rate Instead you didnt.

I don't always compare prices myself. Sometimes I just want to unload things to clean up space with my retainers and choose a number that seems appropriate or close.

So... eh. With the intent to crash the market, sure, but it's fictional money, hard to judge.

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Originally Posted by Claviusnex

What I'm saying is there is no difference in the value of the time at all. I play the game for entertainment and what I'm doing at any given time is what Ifeel like being entertained by. If I decide to gather it doesn't matter if I get ten items or one hundred as I am there to enjoy gathering. The game isn't a job with some return on investment point in a spreadsheet. The only intrinsic value on my time is how it relates to real life. In real life I'm retired but still consult. When consulting my time does have a value at $250/hr. When I'm not consulting, relaxing and enjoying my free time it is priceless.

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I know what you said, I am trying to explain why it makes no sense to me. We all have some limited time we can spend in the game, some people have more time then others. If I am doing an order for something, I expect some sort of gil to cover the opportunity cost that I could of been doing something else. Think of it like this, and I seen this situation before and it confuses me what some pick. If I can gather for 1 hour lets say, and I need 2 materials, one from a level 70 node and one from a 35 node. The 70 node may sell for 200 gil each while the 35 node may sell for 500 each. Some people just gather from the 70 node because they assume higher level = better I guess. But I know not only does the 35 node has more value but I can gather MORE from them in a shorter time just because how the abilities work. So I will gather from the 35 node, sell the excess and buy the 70 node items.

If you are just gathering .. to do something.. ? do you even care to gather an item that sells for the most?

Time as a value by everyone, and that value is different from person to person.

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Originally Posted by Deslanthe

you could have bought those items and Resold them at you Rate Instead you didnt.

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they were my items to begin with, as proven by the fact I reported myself... I've bolded it in the original post that was MYSELF I reported, just how much clearer than that do I have to get?

Ehh, it's annoying but frankly the markets eventually right themselves no matter how foolish people are with their attempts to chase quick profits. You just have to be patient is all and move along to another market until things settle down. Eventually the people unloading the cheap variations will do the same.