SAM out classing all other DPS

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Originally Posted by Niyuka

SAM is the best DPS class, it was also advertised as such. They wont (and cant) go back on that now. Theoretically, other classes were supposed to bring support abilities to make up for their inferiority in comparison to SAM, but judging from what we can test and see right now, at least at item lvl 314 this is not the case.

The problem being also that since SAM is the best DPS class on its own (as designed), it makes better use of most single-target buffs, thus it always is best to buff the SAM until aggro becomes a problem, so you basically require a PLD tank who has better aggro (and is the best tank anyway) right now.

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Saying that each class is flat out "The Best" is probably inaccurate, and will change based on a fight to fight basis. Also, it would be dumb to design SAM, or any job, the flat out best in its department, doesn't fit the MMO style of balancing.

Generally speaking, the WoW style MMOs aim to have the DPS classes well within a margin of 5% of each other. There will always simply be the best class at any one time, fixed with minute tuning. The classes in these design paradigms usually bring something else or maintain some sort of unique utility that makes them superior in certain situations.

So long as the lowball DPS are capable of clearing the content, then it's fine. The rest is just peen measurement.

Samurai is no more out of place now than it would have been in the early eras of the Themepark MMO. It deals more personal dps but brings very little that bolsters everyone else, while the rest are all well within an acceptable margin while also bringing in utility that far outweighs the amount you lose. If it were a matter of raw numbers, then we'd only ever have melee groups, and while it is still possible that Stormblood raids will allow for this, it's doubtful the paradigm has shifted that much.

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Originally Posted by qqmoarploxify

Saying that each class is flat out "The Best" is probably inaccurate, and will change based on a fight to fight basis. Also, it would be dumb to design SAM, or any job, the flat out best in its department, doesn't fit the MMO style of balancing.

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SAM was intentionally designed to be the better DPS at the cost of utility. At least that was the goal for the job. Not sure how accurate this is, but there is a thread discussing this.

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Originally Posted by Pinkie_Pie

http://i.imgur.com/aHrZaDL.jpg

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Originally Posted by Crewman

I like to think a lot of it comes from a lack of understanding. Every class needs a strength and weakness, and some do not comprehend this. If it isn't that, I'd attribute it to "why can't my class do that much damage it isn't fair".

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Yep, I'm thinking it's lack of understanding as well. Instead of flat numbers, which is far too binary (either you're the top of the list or you're just worst than them), what people SHOULD post (in terms of a tier list) should be more detailed. I don't know if I'd go as far as saying it does a disservice to the community to not have more detailed rankings, but these things can be misleading.

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Originally Posted by qqmoarploxify

Saying that each class is flat out "The Best" is probably inaccurate, and will change based on a fight to fight basis. Also, it would be dumb to design SAM, or any job, the flat out best in its department, doesn't fit the MMO style of balancing.

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There is no game in existence that executes 'perfect' balance. It does not exist. And if anything, it's probably the worst in MMO's, because sometimes content is designed that inadvertently benefits one Job's kit in an insane way compared to others.

Also, designing characters to be "The best at something" is always at the cost of something else, and is a common theme in any game that strives for balance. In a fighting game for example. A grappler like Zangief can execute a move that deals about 20% of your life in one move. They are THE best damage dealt per move/input. That is how they are designed, because their tradeoff is (usually) terrible movement options, and few reversal options. A zoner/keep-away character is given great ranged tools, but terrible health to balance the few times you may get in on them, etc etc.

Translated into our game... SAM was made to be the best at damage output, because it's tradeoff is fair. And actually, SAM is still treading on very thin ice. In the situation where you can't bring out the maximum effectiveness of the rotation, OR you die even once, the benefit of bringing the SAM was entirely lost. You've brought the same amount of DPS as any other Job, but nothing to benefit your party.

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Originally Posted by Nominous

I don't know that there's reason to be as aggressive in your opinion about it, but yes, that is what's happening.

People just don't understand, or worse, don't care, is all. As I've said, MNK actually HAD forms of party support, AND high damage in 3.xx, and that didn't create a good enough incentive to bring it to parties. The lack of synergy with the party is what kept MNK out, compared to melee WITH it.

We've seen it. We have evidence. SAM is actually worse off, because it doesn't even have a Mantra-esque support skill to offer anyone.

I get why people are bummed. As a DPS, your Job is to bring the pain. The more effective you are with that, the better it feels. We play for the numbers. We're just seeing that people are quite fair-weather when it comes to their playstyle.

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I'm one of the people who's displeased with what Monk is right now, esp compared to Samurai and even as it concerns what I've heard about the meta and my own observations of fights (from dungeons to medium-hard fights). I main WHM but my Monk is already right behind it and usually on par. Perhaps we need to wait until more DPS data comes out with results, and for the new round of raids but I think there is a difference between where monk was then and where Samurai is now. First, while Mantra has now become Monk exclusive and is a great boost for healers, if an AST/SCH combo can manage the highest incoming damage phases of a fight (with mana managed), then Mantra might as well not be there. No one cares that you survived with your HP bars topped off versus below 15% surviving is surviving. DPSers do just as much damage at 1% HP as they do at 100% - if that changes, maybe we'll care more about increasing incoming healing in this game. This goes deeper into the meta as well because even though WHM is still a capable/great healer with a good base kit, ultimately, their ability to heal "better" is worthless of AST/SCH keeps the party just as alive as a WHM while offering something else. So just like that, you have Monk and White Mages just as undesirable to have in your raid composition as before. With the addition of Samurai being a higher DPS job, it actually makes Monk's even less desirable if they are still considered "greedy for personal DPS...but are worse at it..." Other people have noted that there were still situations where Monk would be out DPS'd by other jobs - and we (Monks) were not bent out of shape by this, but for a single target sustained DPS, that was the only space we were on top for and now we're probably 3rd at best.

So what did we get for utility beyond Mantra? Brotherhood's 5% outgoing damage for everyone except the Monk and feed the Monk chakra stacks only when physical weaponskill damage is being dealt gated behind RNG? This just doesn't look like enough. Even if executed perfectly, 3 Forbidden Chakras is 690 potency at most for a single target. And it calls physical DPS heavy compositions that can easily fall out of meta. Does any other job have such a weak utility that also needs such a restriction to be fully effective? Nope. It's also a massive slap in the fact to so obviously provide a party-wide utility that explicitly avoids benefiting the user of that very utility. Does Balance not apply to the AST? Battle Litany from DRG? Trick Attack from the Ninja? All three of those buffs are stronger and affect the user too! WTF?!?!

Deep Meditation is fine in terms of balance, but is simply boring in terms of "this doesn't change how I play...it just adds a random Forbidden Chakra here and there but is less interesting considering how much less potency it got." It should be noted that until a monk has all 5 stacks between pulls or non-attacking phases, it's almost useless to have a few random chakra's loaded up because the break probably gives you the rest best. Maybe it lets me Meditate once, and Form Shift twice or something within 6 seconds if it's a very short pause, but this is extremely trivial.

Riddle of Wind needs to be fixed so Monks can zip away from a target (boss) to another (add), then zip back after they finish the add. This means the need to stay in Fist of Wind must go away. Switching to Fist of Wind should grant you a free cast of Shoulder Tackle without consuming the cooldown every <N> seconds. So yes, switch to wind (knowing you need to move to kill an ADD, Shoulder Tackle the ADD, switch back to Fist of Fire, finish ADD, Should Tackle back to boss and continue. This might be a reasonable sequence with some usage.

Riddle of Earth -> Earth's Reply should be changed to maintain maximum GL3 stacks so we have the ability to use Tornado Kick without consuming the stacks. Perhaps then there's a reason to keep the 5% damage from Fists of Fire off for a short while.

Riddle of Fire -> I don't have it yet. I've read opinions on it, asked some very Monks in game, seen the numbers. To me it looks like maybe it is little under powered (because of the long CD and slowdown), but not worth complaining about. To me it just looks like they gave us Blood for Blood back on a slower cooldown with a different penalty.

I think what was has been forgotten the difficulty of playing the job is that while Monk rotation is static in terms of the skills and order used, it's the execution in a serious, variable, and RNG (for who gets chosen for mechanics) fight that poses the challenge. We all know a Monk not hitting positionals is losing out on a large chunk of potency. We all know that a Monk not constantly attacking and maintaining GL3 is a huge hit too. More serious fights add mechanics that restrict/limit movement putting further pressure against hitting positionals or hitting at all and further risks us dropping GL3, and there are usually mechanics or mechanic phases which guarantee us losing our GL3 in the first place. I've found that late HW content (dungeon bosses) and a number of the Stormblood bosses turn towards random targets a lot. And they turn very quickly making it easy to lose out on the critical Bootshine or rear Demolish unless you literally just hold on using up your GCD until you get back into position (which a gut feeling tells me this is never worth it). In some cases I still have time to react to the turn but sometimes the new shortest path to get into position is now through a mechanics hazard so...well...take extra damage? Probably not. This might be a nit pick but some fights it's also flat out hard to find the turn cursor when it moves so fast under a lot of effects and adds that are sitting on top of your intentional target. True North does not fix this problem because it's only 15s on a 2 minute cooldown and Monk positionals apply to every GCD outside of AoE rotation while mechanics are definitely going on more frequently than that too. True North is for the planned parts of a fight that explicitly call for not attacking from a direction/space, or attacking from only one for a short period of time - not for when things get sloppy/chaotic.

Someone tell me how it's fair for a Monk to lose GL3 for a 330 potency attack that's annoying AF to time, when Samurai has a 720 (1080 potency in practice) that uses 3 Sen but does not remove any inherent buffs to the rest of their autos/weaponskills/abilities so they can(and should) pop it as soon as ready?

For those that really look into optimizing decisions, Monk's Shoulder Tackle during non-moving parts of a fight call for using it immediately as a flat damage increase. However, to optimize, you must know when to not put it on cooldown else you will have a slow walk to the target and risk losing your Form timer -> GL3. Samurai on the other hand has a much simpler design where that skill is only ever used as a gap closer with a minimal cost to their gauge and a super low cooldown, so if necessary it can be used in quite close succession. To make matters more confusing, Steel Peak is still there for the flat damage increase...now even more embarrassingly so as it doesn't stun anymore. How did this skill not get removed given they introduced Leg Sweep as cross-role and gave the (still useless) One Ilm Punch a stun? There's literally no other way to use this skill than "instantly when it's off CD" right now. Remove it, and add the potency back to the other skills because it just isn't doing anything for me.

During times when you cannot attack (need to move between targets maybe, or a boss is briefly unattackable), Monk's still need to consider a few things: What form are you in? What is your GL3 timer? How soon will the boss be back? How many chakra stacks do you have? The answers to these affect whether or not you charge your chakra stacks back to full, form shift back into coeurl, or if you can accomplish both. Make the decision quickly too...else you might lose GL3, or find yourself with 4-odd chakra stacks and Internal Release of CD wondering if you should wait to use it until you can stack it with FC. Not to mention it's likely when the target comes back, it will probably either be missing or will temporarily be missing the blunt resistance debuff or your Twin Snakes buff because the timers are short for both.

I'm going to be clear, my overall issue isn't "Monk isn't top DPS anymore." The issue is that Monks are still annoying AF to use in a hard fights (high skill); Monk's have moved down to only 'OK' DPS while executing very very well; nothing much was added to make them more fun to play; and they are still pretty terrible utility begging the question "what the F am even I doing here?" Square Enix needs to find a cause/purpose and adjust this job accordingly. I'm happy to understand if they don't intend for this job to be like what it once was, but it should be close to very good at something because right now it's not. Or maybe someone else can tell me what situation is a Monk one of the top 3 DPS jobs you should ever have in your composition?

I know my opinion doesn't matter much as I'm still seeing more an more as I go, but from what I've gathered I usually manage to come out above SAMs or other jobs it seems but that could just be due to people still learning their class or general laziness. There's only one time I've noticed a SAM do better an that was in Susano Ex, but his gear was also significantly better than what i had so a bit unfair to judge.

From what I've heard an read they're meant to be really good, i would assume they have rotations they have to meet before being able to dish out that amount of dps though.

Like others have said certain classes are meant to put out that kind of dps, and the sam fits the bill. Far as im concerned I'm happy being able to support healers in times of need, an having long range/mobility than potentially putting out the most dps.

every class has positives an negatives learn them an thats when you'll be better than most.

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Originally Posted by Vincenti

From what I've heard an read they're meant to be really good, i would assume they have rotations they have to meet before being able to dish out that amount of dps though.

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I want to be "that guy" and tell you SAM has an ability that removes rotation requirement for a short time lol.

I think most people are fully aware that SAM was designed to be pure damage and out dps other jobs.

The question isn't if SAM should be doing more damage than other jobs, but instead how much more damage should SAM be doing than other jobs?

People need to be asking whether or not it's ok if SAM has around 600 more dps than DRG for example, or 1000 more dps than MCH.

At what point does the "utility" or raid buffs other jobs bring become weak in comparison to the difference in dmg you gain by bringing a SAM.

@HaiHai

You would be correct. However there are certain variables that need to be taken into account. Even though SAM can bring the pain, it may suffer a bit in raids where the bosses are very AoE heavy and require a lot of movement and dodging, thus reducing your output. In a case of ranged DD, they would likely be able to perform better under those circumstances. I am sure rebalancing will happen eventually, but before that they should focus on the current DPS jobs that appear quite useless right now. All opinion based of course.

Its more complicated. A DRGs contribution, for example, is vastly higher if there is a SAM in the group than if there was a Summoner, because of the way his buffs and positioning usually works out. Certain combinations work better than others, and thus certain setups will vastly outperform others. SAM's value is that he slots in more easily than the old MNK into more different setups, less picky about his support, and helping out tanks (thus freeing up choice there and not requiring a Ninja) with slashing debuff.

Mantra, as almost all defensive support, isnt all that good because healing (so far) is easy and not an issue, same goes for mitigating damage. Its only about DPS, and there lies the problem.

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Originally Posted by HaiHai

I think most people are fully aware that SAM was designed to be pure damage and out dps other jobs.

The question isn't if SAM should be doing more damage than other jobs, but instead how much more damage should SAM be doing than other jobs?

People need to be asking whether or not it's ok if SAM has around 600 more dps than DRG for example, or 1000 more dps than MCH.

At what point does the "utility" or raid buffs other jobs bring become weak in comparison to the difference in dmg you gain by bringing a SAM.

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I don't know, reading this thread has me thinking that people really don't care one way or the other, how SAM was meant to be designed.

And trying to think about when utility/raid buffs become weak in comparison to flat damage isn't so much a question. Raw damage on an individual Job needs to contribute more than raid/utility buffs AND the raw damage of the next most capable Jobs.

Right now, I don't know that I can say SAM is in the best of spots, because the highest SAM damage we've seen is in the 4600's, but are EXTREMELY lucky Crit/DH+Cit heavy runs. We're starting to see some other Jobs produce numbers VERY close to that (SMN in the 4400's, DRG above 4100, NIN in the 4200's). So SAM is operating, at best, around 10% higher than the majority of Jobs.

Let's take that away from SAM, and say that's it's utility, and that they just deal 4200 average DPS like most everyone else. That's 400 or so total rDPS contribution from SAM. Compared to the 300-ish from Disembowel+Sight+Litany. Compared to the 400-500 rDPS contribution from NIN. You could go on and on. The discrepancy isn't enough to put SAM comfortably ahead of anyone. And it's even less in the face of progression, where RDM's raise/cures might potentially be the difference of a World First clear and a wipe, for example. Anyways. It's a very fine line is the idea, and right now, SAM is on the scarier side of losing importance, than the safer side.

It is in a far better place as far as playstyle goes, and that's without saying. Some other Jobs need A LOT of love, but I'm not sure it's like, directly related to SAM though.

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Originally Posted by EbonySeraphim

Someone tell me how it's fair for a Monk to lose GL3 for a 330 potency attack that's annoying AF to time, when Samurai has a 720 (1080 potency in practice) that uses 3 Sen but does not remove any inherent buffs to the rest of their autos/weaponskills/abilities so they can(and should) pop it as soon as ready?

Or maybe someone else can tell me what situation is a Monk one of the top 3 DPS jobs you should ever have in your composition?

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There's more I wanted to quote, but I can respond all the same. For one, the whole point about Mantra is that people didn't care about MNK's having a stronger version, even though it can and should have been seen as an added benefit to their raw DPS. People can ignore it, it will not change the fact that it exists, and that it's always added something to the party.

Two. All of MNK's skills hit for low potency because they have an insane amount of buffs modifying them. FoF, Twin Snakes, GL3, and now, Riddle of Fire all increase damage (potency). The potency of Tornado Kick after all of THOSE add into it, is absolutely bonkers. If you want to get deep into SAM, it costs 3 Sen to activate Midare Setsugekka. 3 Sen can alternatively be used to gain 60 Kenki. Kenki can be used on gap closers, disengages, potency buffs, AoE, single-target damage, you name it. So yes, Midare DOES cost something to use. Flexibility. Also, while Midare is strong, it takes 20+ seconds to build to it, and 1.5 seconds to cast it. AND you have to alternate between 3 Sen for that, their Sen consuming DoT, and using Sen for Hagakure every 2 rotations to be effective.

And finally, you ask why people should take MNK and it's simple. If people run the typical 2 melee, 1 ranged, 1 caster, which has only changed for 1 tier since 2.0, and only because of how busted BRD/MCH were with disembowel, then you're choosing NIN and one other melee. MNK doesn't have to compete with DRG, because it's damage is higher while offering a decent bit to the party. It only competes with SAM, and the only reason SAM is winning out now is because of the very slight damage difference between the two.

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Originally Posted by Nominous

Right now, I don't know that I can say SAM is in the best of spots, because the highest SAM damage we've seen is in the 4600's, but are EXTREMELY lucky Crit/DH+Cit heavy runs. We're starting to see some other Jobs produce numbers VERY close to that (SMN in the 4400's, DRG above 4100, NIN in the 4200's). So SAM is operating, at best, around 10% higher than the majority of Jobs.

Let's take that away from SAM, and say that's it's utility, and that they just deal 4100 DPS like everyone else. That's 400-500 total rDPS contribution, is what I'd consider that. Compared to the 300-ish from Disembowel+Sight+Litany. Compared to the 400-500 rDPS contribution from NIN. You could go on and on. That gives SAM very little wiggle room. Put everyone more consistently in the 4200-4300 area, and SAM is basically worthless.

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Well just using DRG as an example... DRG's raid utility is purely based on increases the raids overall damage. Litany, disembowel, and Sight. Altogether, like you say, this is about 300 overall raid dps increase (give or take average). However since SAM is doing roughly 600 more dps than DRG, again average from extreme parsing, you could surmise that bringing a SAM right now would net your raid about 300 more overall raid dps than if you brought a DRG.

Add to this, that disembowel requires you to have a bard in the group to benefit, and has no bearing at all without one. Also job variation with crit being useful or not varies as some benefit more than others, making litany only extremely valuable to comps that feed on crit. This means DRG being valuable is dependent upon your raid group composition.

SAM, on top of having 300 average more dps than DRG for the raid, also fits into any composition without being reliant on other jobs to perform well.

You could do this comparison to other dps jobs as well and see similar results. I will not say that SAM is outperforming every other dps job, for example Ninja is performing extremely well at the moment with high dmg and great raid utility, but it is definitely outshining some others at the moment.

like i have said previously in this thread, if a single class brings more damage than other classes can be buffed to do, then only that class will be brought to raids. (the only exception is fights that REQUIRE melee and ranged in order to complete mechanics) as it currently stands, the highest possible dps group actually has 4 samurai in it. This is a problem that will manifest itself in progression and farm groups unless sam are brought back in line with other classes.

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Originally Posted by HaiHai

SAM, on top of having 300 average more dps than DRG for the raid, also fits into any composition without being reliant on other jobs to perform well.

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That is true, I can give you at least that much. Outside of NIN, SAM has the easiest time fitting in a comp, since it doesn't depend on physical weaponskills (like MNK with brotherhood), or a melee/ranged damage dealer (like DRG with Dragonsight and BRD/MCH). Also, DRG is in the worst place right now, because it depends on such specific things to bring out it's more 'support' based role they're trying to apply to it. They need a lot of love, but that's another conversation entirely.

That being said, SAM's self-reliance (in comparison to party comp) for higher damage, is a gift and curse. It makes it easier to fit within a comp, but the moment you die, you've forfeited all tangible utility you've offered to the party, since your DPS will be that of any other competing Job, MINUS their buffs. You depend on yourself, and yourself alone to bring out the utility in the Job.

NIN can die after applying TA, and the whole party will still benefit. NIN can be res'd, and still put up TA for everyone to benefit. Same for any other party utility. Since it benefits the party, it requires less personal accountability. Not to mention, we can look at the overall rDPS increase of these skills in a sustained sense, but it's important to see the immediate benefits they can have when applied. Yeah, a SAM does x amount more sustained DPS, and yes, Midare is strong, but TA is 10% extra damage from your whole party on an Add, or DPS check. TA and party buffs are going to win out for making things easier to deal with on a moment by moment basis.

SAM is working as intended. It's a powerful DPS class due to having no utility. Now that the community had enough time to understand SAM, most dungeon runs go by pretty fast. Even their conal aoe is strong in itself.

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Originally Posted by Falar

Ninja DPS is pretty good now, with its buffs like TA I bet the overall contribution is better than Samurai, plus better AoE.

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As a Lv63 NIN and Lv58 SAM, I can confirm that my SAM's aoe is stronger, even if I'm not self-buffed from Jinpu.

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Originally Posted by Nominous

It makes it easier to fit within a comp, but the moment you die, you've forfeited all tangible utility you've offered to the party, since your DPS will be that of any other competing Job, MINUS their buffs. You depend on yourself, and yourself alone to bring out the utility in the Job.

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Progressing in savage level content with entry level gear means you will not be afforded with the luxury of anyone dying due to hard enrage timers. so the arguement of "dying" does not apply to groups that are min/maxing. i've said it before and i'll say it again. damage on it's own can not be a reason to bring a class or raids will end up stacking that class and foregoing classes that sacrifice damage for utility.

You guys need to play samurai before you even consider posting here lol

Samurai opener is literally rocket science! And the gauge management it's important too it's alot more complicated then you think

I tried to master the samurai opener and could never get it right

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Originally Posted by Janhyua

You guys need to play samurai before you even consider posting here lol

Samurai opener is literally rocket science! And the gauge management it's important too it's alot more complicated then you think

I tried to master the samurai opener and could never get it right

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Just because you can't play the job right doesn't mean other people can't, and plenty of people posting here probably do play SAM as well as other jobs.

Even if it is the most difficult job to play, which is entirely debatable (it isn't as complex as most people would lead you to think), that doesn't mean that it somehow gets a pass to be overly powerful compared to its role counterparts.

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Originally Posted by Janhyua

You guys need to play samurai before you even consider posting here lol

Samurai opener is literally rocket science! And the gauge management it's important too it's alot more complicated then you think

I tried to master the samurai opener and could never get it right

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Take your own advice, and avoid commenting on SAM if you can't even get their rotation down.

And no, just because you can't do it doesn't mean it's some unbelievably hard job. It's actually rather smooth.

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Originally Posted by Shunye

Progressing in savage level content with entry level gear means you will not be afforded with the luxury of anyone dying due to hard enrage timers. so the arguement of "dying" does not apply to groups that are min/maxing. i've said it before and i'll say it again. damage on it's own can not be a reason to bring a class or raids will end up stacking that class and foregoing classes that sacrifice damage for utility.

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Despite the fact that your goal is not to die, there are a good many fights, even during progression, that allow for recovery. Pentamelded crafted gear says hello for all fights except the final in any raid tier. Even disregarding that, the point still stands. If the SAM isn't at maximum efficiency, all of the time (that means they aren't dying, AND they're maintaining the perfect rotation/uptime), they aren't going to be as good as the next best option.

And really, I'm not disagreeing that raw damage is a poor excuse for a unique trait. However, they are clearly running out of ideas when their idea of 'synergy' is slapping 5%-10% damage buffs on Jobs and calling it a day. Of all their options, this seems about right, unless we really want yet another Job who's only 'unique' trait is their raidwide damage buff.

Also, if people start stacking any Job this expansion, it's going to be RDM. 2x Embolden, along with their DPS, and the potential for at least 2-4 insta-cast raises at any given point of a fight, AND the backup heals? That's a way better setup for safety AND DPS.

It's kind of weird that people are so worried about SAM. It really is. Like, what's the ideal outcome? I really am curious what people expect for the ideal balance to be for the Job, where it's wanted in groups for something 'special', but also doesn't make them feel insecure or otherwise 'out-classed'.

I assume SE will wait until they have numbers from the first raid. Trying to balance jobs around trifling content is ludicrous and inefficient.

It also feels disingenuous when people formulate facts based on I've seen, I've heard, it feels like and the likes. Feelcraft does not work when balancing jobs. I do hope SE looks at the numbers and tries to balance out the field.

Samurai openner os Rocket science lul.

Most of 3.x dps openner were way more complex than SAM.

If you wanna be elitist, at least pick a hard job to represent you

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Originally Posted by Janhyua

Samurai opener is literally rocket science!

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Just a single read through the tooltips, assuming H:K cannot affect Higanbana, would push one towards the weaponskill rotation:
H S K H J IJ MS Y K G H:K-IJ and then rotate S J and Y while using 3-seal H:K-IJ, replacing 1-seal IJ as close as possible to when it falls off.

The 2-3 GCD flexibility in reapplying Higanbana would seem to make the only difficult portions of the rotation the refresh on MS and when to use Hagakure.

SAM has 3 different openers that range from easy to hard which equates to the way your skills will line up down the road. People get this idea that SAM is so ez yet are 1000 dps below the next SAM who knows how to min/max the class. I'm sure a good portion of the player base here doesn't even know how to optimally play one but will still complain.

Like someone said before, MNK was the sameway nut didn't bring enough DPS to warrant taking one and all of the MNK players were upset yet all the other class just sweep MNK under a rug, but now SE has produced a class that fits that mold perfectly and everyone looses their mind at the idea that your class may actually be replaced in a raid?

Also, why is no one crying about BLM who are parsing right beside SAM?

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Originally Posted by MiruWest

Also, why is no one crying about BLM who are parsing right beside SAM?

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I want to take a wild guess and say it's because there aren't currently 1000s of BLM's running around at the moment.

Yea sounds about right I guess.

SAM is the new meta punching bag pretty much haha.

Why would they nerf SAM? It's doing exactly what the job was meant to do. Bring lots of damage. Their DPS isn't even that much higher than the other top DPS jobs. If you bring their damage down to where it is comparable to other classes, it loses all purpose as a job.

^ Agreed, balancing SAM would likely require some skill changes because they won't have anything to offer otherwise. I've said it numerous times but I think the argument is the logic SE used for the job was rather bad. The biggest point being if SAM puts out the most DPS, then that's all people will play for savage. I'd call it debatable because SAM has to constantly DPS and not die to keep that higher DPS number, but a lot of people do not consider anything beyond the pure numbers.

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Originally Posted by Kaiden019

Why would they nerf SAM? It's doing exactly what the job was meant to do. Bring lots of damage. Their DPS isn't even that much higher than the other top DPS jobs. If you bring their damage down to where it is comparable to other classes, it loses all purpose as a job.

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The problem is, even with utility, jobs like Monk can't keep up at all with the extra damage a SAM brings.
Monk does less than a ninja now, and on top of that their utility is severely limiting and RNG based. I could see if the difference is numbers was made up in utility, but it's not.

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Originally Posted by Kaiden019

Why would they nerf SAM? It's doing exactly what the job was meant to do. Bring lots of damage. Their DPS isn't even that much higher than the other top DPS jobs. If you bring their damage down to where it is comparable to other classes, it loses all purpose as a job.

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Isn't even that much higher? With or without all the buffs it's getting? It's 600-500 higher than the 2nd placed, unless Blm. And 1000-1200 more than the low Dps.

Mnk was not that much higher, by 100-150 max more in 3.x.

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Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

The problem is, even with utility, jobs like Monk can't keep up at all with the extra damage a SAM brings.
Monk does less than a ninja now, and on top of that their utility is severely limiting and RNG based. I could see if the difference is numbers was made up in utility, but it's not.

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Then the issue is monk's low dps, not sam's dps.

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Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

The problem is, even with utility, jobs like Monk can't keep up at all with the extra damage a SAM brings.
Monk does less than a ninja now, and on top of that their utility is severely limiting and RNG based. I could see if the difference is numbers was made up in utility, but it's not.

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If you want to make comparisons, you need to compare percentages. A dragoon can pull 4100 dps vs samurai at 4600, both having good crits on those. that's a 500 dps difference, which means sam is 12% above which is not that high. The gap closes with ninja and monk and is even closer with a blm.

If you put things this way, you realize that's Sam's numbers aren't that high, and any nerf would kill it's whole purpose in a raiding comp.

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Originally Posted by Shiroe

Isn't even that much higher? With or without all the buffs it's getting? It's 600-500 higher than the 2nd placed, unless Blm. And 1000-1200 more than the low Dps.

Mnk was not that much higher, by 100-150 max more in 3.x.

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Most of their damage comes for sustain so they will suffer harder than other jobs in fights that have phases where you can't damage the boss.

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Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

The problem is, even with utility, jobs like Monk can't keep up at all with the extra damage a SAM brings.
Monk does less than a ninja now, and on top of that their utility is severely limiting and RNG based. I could see if the difference is numbers was made up in utility, but it's not.

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That's the point. no job should be doing as much damage as SAM. If a job can do equal damage as SAM then you have absolutely no reason to bring a SAM in your party.

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Originally Posted by Shiroe

Isn't even that much higher? With or without all the buffs it's getting? It's 600-500 higher than the 2nd placed, unless Blm. And 1000-1200 more than the low Dps.

Mnk was not that much higher, by 100-150 max more in 3.x.

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Mnk was excluded because it was only 100 - 150 dps more than Drg. That dos difference was eclipsed by the utility drg/Nin brought to the raid.
People use this comparison when it didn't work for mnk and want to put Sam in the same predicament.

Sam/Blm are you physical/magical heavy hitters. If they need Sams, then they better need Blms to compensate. I don't think either class needs to be nerfed.

Off topic but related: This thread is an excellent argument why parsers would be bad for this game. Even when they are disallowed, people are throwing numbers around, will little context, in order to get a perceived overpowered job nerfed. Guys, don't you think Square Enix has a lot more data than we could ever compile about the performance of samurai versus the other damage dealers? Let them tweak the numbers. Our part in this is to let them know we believe there is too big a gap between the damage dealing jobs.