Should healers now be allowed to play how they choose to play?

Just to add to what Lauren said: this also implies that I, as a tank, ONLY have to hold aggro. So I can pull, then overpower a few times, going afk only to overpower again if I start to lose hate? That's okay with everyone from now on? I mean, I'm a tank so all I have to do is stand there and get hit, right?

I'm a healer who doesn't enjoy DPSing. I've played mmos for about 14 years now and I always, always play a healer. I can't say I've ever noticed such an emphasis placed on healers DPSing as I have in this game. At first it really turned me off. Especially because every fight is new to me and I'm only playing in randoms which I never know what the group is going to be like.

I'm lvl 52 now and I think I finally grasp what people are saying: Don't be idle. I view healer as the ultimate support role. Traditionally, I think of buffs and heals as the support, but that's probably because in most game the dps a healer does is so insignificant. But as I gain more and more experience in my class, I'm slowly becoming more adept at the stance dance. It was really uncomfortable at first and it still often times is. But I'm seeing improvement. I'm probably not an amazing healer because I am not putting out as much DPS as I can, but I am keeping the party alive while at the same time not standing around doing nothing.

And I think this is what the majority of people who are in the pro-dps camp are trying to say: Don't sit there and do nothing. Contribute. This is a multiplayer game. The whole point of group play is to work as a team and help everyone progress. DPSing when you have nothing else to do is just being a team player. You don't have to be an amazing skilled player. If you have an open window with nothing to do, then do something.

Interestingly, I became better at DPSing as I learned more about healing. Watching and reading healing guides is teaching me how to be more optimal with my heals, and thus giving me more windows to dps.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Feyona

because why shoul people like you be the judge, jury and exocutioner of other people's right to be in an instance

---

you have no "right" to be in an instance if others don't want you there. Why should we be forced to play with people who are lazy? That's entitlement right there. SE won't step in and people will continue to get kicked for lazy play. Good. Nothing will change. Stop harassing us with lazy play and you almost certainly won't ever have to worry about being kicked.

Utter entitlement to think you can force yourself on others that don't want you.

To the person who argued that you shouldn't kick someone because they might have anxiety and react badly: That's not my problem. You want to carry the weight of the world on your back? Go ahead, give yourself anxiety.

To the person calling people "knobs": and I feel it's nobbish to be lazy. I also feel apologising for those players to be nobbish. So we're equal. "my sub so you HAVE to put up with me!" - more entitlement.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lauren

Just so you're aware: This logic also means that if a DPS only does auto attacks in dungeons you should not have the ability to kick them. Or if a tank doesn't take aggro when mobs latch onto you. Because they're playing how they wish.

The whole "It's my sub so I'll play as I want" statement is insane. "Play as I wish" is insane. I know full well if I wanted to "explore" the dungeon backwards, while the rest of my team continued the main dungeon fights, I'd be kicked. It's a fair system. 99% of the time I've seen people kicked, it's been for very justifiable reasons.

---

Im not auto healing cos Im not dpsing though dont you see just a slight difference in that comparison?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nalyna

I'm lvl 52 now and I think I finally grasp what people are saying: Don't be idle. I view healer as the ultimate support role. Traditionally, I think of buffs and heals as the support, but that's probably because in most game the dps a healer does is so insignificant. But as I gain more and more experience in my class, I'm slowly becoming more adept at the stance dance. It was really uncomfortable at first and it still often times is. But I'm seeing improvement. I'm probably not an amazing healer because I am not putting out as much DPS as I can, but I am keeping the party alive while at the same time not standing around doing nothing.

And I think this is what the majority of people who are in the pro-dps camp are trying to say: Don't sit there and do nothing. Contribute. This is a multiplayer game. The whole point of group play is to work as a team and help everyone progress. DPSing when you have nothing else to do is just being a team player. You don't have to be an amazing skilled player. If you have an open window with nothing to do, then do something.

---

You have grasped perfectly everything most people are trying to convey - the subject at here is not the numbers, it is how active you're being and showing interest in learning how to best support your team, when your heals are not needed.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Feyona

because why shoul people like you be the judge, jury and exocutioner of other people's right to be in an instance

---

Because we are paying for our subs, just like you are, and you are wasting our time with your incredibly selfish, inefficient and lazy outlook on how a class should be played. Remember that a votekick can't go through unless at least one other person agrees with it. If you have reached level 60, geared up enough to the point that you can access EX dungeons, and -still- haven't learned your class to a degree where you can throw out some DPS in the incredibly generous downtime that is available in most fights? Chances are that you never will.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dsync

you have no "right" to be in an instance if others don't want you there. Why should we be forced to play with people who are lazy?

To the person who argued that you shouldn't kick someone because they might have anxiety and react badly: That's not my problem. You want to carry the weight of the world on your back? Go ahead, give yourself anxiety.

To the person calling people "knobs": and I feel it's nobbish to be lazy. I also feel apologising for those players to be nobbish. So we're equal. "my sub so you HAVE to put up with me!" - more entitlement.

---

:) Last time I was kicked out an instance was pvp and cos I was afk for some reason. The person was not stating they kick people for not doing anything at all but for not playing to their standard which is not really about entitlement at all unless your the one that feels entitled to treat people badly or say what you like to others no matter what the consequences.
Lla

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by IttyBitty

Because we are paying for our subs, just like you are, and you are wasting our time with your incredibly selfish, inefficient and lazy outlook on how a class should be played. Remember that a votekick can't go through unless at least one other person agrees with it. If you have reached level 60, geared up enough to the point that you can access EX dungeons, and -still- haven't learned your class to a degree where you can throw out some DPS in the incredibly generous downtime that is available in most fights? Chances are that you never will.

---

By the same token isnt it being selfish to expect people to play the game exactly how you want them to wether they want to or not?

We're going in circles.

i do a few instances most days since i started playing FF a few months back & only once have i been asked to dps by a tank.
i ignored his request & he kicked off, but to their credit, the dps in the group backed me & we carried on albeit rather slowly as the tank had the arse & was then pulling the bare minimum.
if i wanted to play a dps, i would have chosen one & if i get kicked from a group for not dpsing, then so be it.
i played a healer for 12 years in wow, im certainly not going to start dpsing in FF.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Feyona

By the same token isnt it being selfish to expect people to play the game exactly how you want them to wether they want to or not?

---

There's a difference between expecting players to play their role to the best of their abilities and using all of the tools available to them to do so (good), and playing in a manner that means everybody else has to work even harder to pick up the slack you are refusing to help with for the selfish reason of "I don't want to <x>, it's not my job" (bad). Because surprise, it is your job, just as it is everybody else's. You have tools to facilitate it. Make use of them.

One scenario has everybody carrying their share of the burden. The other has someone slacking off and letting everybody else do at least half of their share. They are not equivalent in the least. If two or more people in the party want the person slacking off out of the duty? They are absolutely within their rights to remove them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by imjustahealer

i played a healer for 12 years in wow, im certainly not going to start dpsing in FF.

---

1. This isn't WOW.
2. If I see a healer standing idle or jumping around me in circles doing nothing, I'd ask them to dps, too.
3. If someone votes to dismiss you, "differing playstyles" is an accepted reason.
4. I see you identify as WHM. The conjurer quest line is literally about how bad and wrong it is for a conjurer to ONLY heal and never use the offensive spells in their toolkit.

On the other hand if you're not idle, if all you can do is heal and you're constantly casting because you're at the limit of your ability or gear, that's understandable. Most players are going to make allowances. People recognize the difference between a healer with high skill and one who's new and learning.

Someone who just stands there occasionally topping the tank off is being very lazy and yeah, it's against the meta for FFXIV. Can you change the mentality of the player base toward that? I think not.

A tank is there to take the Agro and soak up the damage. The healer is there to keep the group alive and the dps are there to kill the mobs in a timely manner.

These are the very basic tennents of a triage based MMO. As long as each of these are performing those roles the rest is just icing on the cake.

those insisting that the healer absolutely must dps even if that person isn't comfortable with juggling those two roles (one of which is an absolute requirement for successful completion of the dungeon/raid) need to wind their necks in and concentrate on their own role.

The way I see it, healers in this game are different from healers in other MMOs, and that's fine - except plenty of people expect and want to play them the same way that they have in other games. The issue with that is in the overall content design - nothing requires 100% uptime on heals, and certainly not 100% heal uptime from both healers.

Even in A11S - I pop a regen on the tank periodically during the entire fist phase and the fairy handles the rest, provided the tank is properly managing his cooldowns. I only ever have to heal the party up for whirlwind, or if someone gets a vuln stack from an optical sight/lazer sword. Sure, the later phases are more heal intensive - but I have plenty of time to dps even if I'm in the "main healer" role.

If they change this in Stormblood, maybe then we'd see a decline in the downtime between heals, thus healers wouldn't have to stand around doing nothing if they don't DPS. To answer the main point of this thread - people can play however they want, but they shouldn't be surprised if the majority disagrees with them and kicks them from the group. Make some friends to run with, make premade parties, but don't expect randoms to put up with what they consider to be sub-par play.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by craized

A tank is there to take the Agro and soak up the damage. The healer is there to keep the group alive and the dps are there to kill the mobs in a timely manner.

These are the very basic tennents of a triage based MMO. As long as each of these are performing those roles the rest is just icing on the cake.

those insisting that the healer absolutely must dps even if that person isn't comfortable with juggling those two roles (one of which is an absolute requirement for successful completion of the dungeon/raid) need to wind their necks in and concentrate on their own role.

---

If you're playing a group game then the group is important as a whole. This isn't a single player game. If a healer just heals, a tank just flashes (enough to keep hate), a dps hits as many buttons as the tank and heal... good luck getting that dungeon done without developing an ulcer.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bounddreamer

1. This isn't WOW.
2. If I see a healer standing idle or jumping around me in circles doing nothing, I'd ask them to dps, too.
3. If someone votes to dismiss you, "differing playstyles" is an accepted reason.
4. I see you identify as WHM. The conjurer quest line is literally about how bad and wrong it is for a conjurer to ONLY heal and never use the offensive spells in their toolkit.
Someone who just stands there occasionally topping the tank off is being very lazy and yeah, it's against the meta for FFXIV. Can you change the mentality of the player base toward that? I think not.

---

i did wonder when the "this isnt wow" comment would come, congratulations on being the 1st & 1000+ posts in 18 months, you have been a busy boy.
tbh, i seem to spend most of my time healing dps that cant/wont move out of the s**t.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by imjustahealer

i do a few instances most days since i started playing FF a few months back & only once have i been asked to dps by a tank.
i ignored his request & he kicked off, but to their credit, the dps in the group backed me & we carried on albeit rather slowly as the tank had the arse & was then pulling the bare minimum.
if i wanted to play a dps, i would have chosen one & if i get kicked from a group for not dpsing, then so be it.
i played a healer for 12 years in wow, im certainly not going to start dpsing in FF.

---

Had a good laugh after reading your name and your comment ;D

On another note though, the "this isn't wow" argument is valid - they're different games, isn't it to be expected that they'd have differences?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by IttyBitty

One scenario has everybody carrying their share of the burden. The other has someone slacking off and letting everybody else do at least half of their share. They are not equivalent in the least. If two or more people in the party want the person slacking off out of the duty? They are absolutely within their rights to remove them.

---

You didnt really see my point that not everyone can do what you expect. I dont want to headbutt though over this, Sorry for creating any bad feelings here. Im just compassionate towards others that dont want to be forced into doing things that may be a struggle for them. The player above that got picked on above cos she was brave enough to state thate she o nly wants to heal and not dps forinstance and its what some are just comfortable at.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by imjustahealer

tbh, i seem to spend most of my time healing dps that cant/wont move out of the s**t.

---

Maybe some don't move because you don't do any damage. Why should they try if you're not going to? You're there to heal them only, remember. Not like you have DPS to worry about.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by imjustahealer

i did wonder when the "this isnt wow" comment would come, congratulations on being the 1st & 1000+ posts in 18 months, you have been a busy boy.

---

Not a boy, broski.

If the party's taking so much damage they require your constant healing attention and you never stand around just healbotting, congratulations! Your parties suit your playstyle.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by imjustahealer

i did wonder when the "this isnt wow" comment would come, congratulations on being the 1st & 1000+ posts in 18 months, you have been a busy boy.
tbh, i seem to spend most of my time healing dps that cant/wont move out of the s**t.

---

I really respect your bravery here some healers would like to be left to play the game how it was originally intended. Not many are brave enough to say so and face the hostility, of gamers forcing them to perform two roles in the name of efficiency.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Feyona

I really respect your bravery here some healers would like to be left to play the game how it was originally intended. Not many are brave enough to say so and face the hostility, of gamers forcing them to perform two roles in the name of efficiency.

---

You were originally intended to DPS. Don't make up stuff.

Healer should only DPS when they can comfortably toggle between healer stance (cleric off) and attacker stance (cleric on). If they don't at least the wont make unnecesary risk and will just fulfill at least the healing part, not risking to waste heals by casting them in Cleric Stance.

Also, kicking them right off the bat isn't right. At all. Doing DPS as a healer is not a written rule and not everyone feels safe (mostly newbies) enough to toggle Cleric Stance on. The boss will die eventually, healer DPSing or not, so there's no need to force things. Even if the healer is not using its abilities at full extent, the party won't wipe as long as the party know the mechanics and don't mess up things. It does help? Yeah, sure. But that's it. It's not comparable to tank without tank stance or having a BLM cast only ice spells (both case are people who dont fulfill their primary roles: tanking and DPSing) because DPS is a secondary aspect of the Healer.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Feyona

I really respect your bravery here some healers would like to be left to play the game how it was originally intended. Not many are brave enough to say so and face the hostility, of gamers forcing them to perform two roles in the name of efficiency.

---

Wow, you are only here to pay attention to people who 100% agree with you. You posed some questions in your initial thread, and throughout, but you're utterly opposed to taking in any perspectives that aren't in total alignment with yours.

It's rather pointless to invite discussion if you're not prepared to accept the fact the majority of the community's expectations and experiences are different. And it's not two roles at all. None of the roles are pure healing roles in FFXIV.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dsync

If you're playing a group game then the group is important as a whole. This isn't a single player game. If a healer just heals, a tank just flashes (enough to keep hate), a dps hits as many buttons as the tank and heal... good luck getting that dungeon done without developing an ulcer.

---

The important thing is that the goal is accomplished. If it takes 5 minutes longer to complete, so be it. Besides dps is a fundamental function of a tank because it provides agro. There's no way in hell a tank spamming flash is going to retain agro. Dps is not a function of a healer, its an added bonus. There to be used by those comfortable with juggling two very disseparate roles. Neither a tank nor dps has such a responsibility.

I played heals in WoW since Vanilla. Especially in earlier expansions, healer DPS was downright pitiful. I will admit, I rarely dps'd. Because most players use a DPS meter, it's downright demoralizing to see you did .05% of the damage. It's like a joke. In a game like this, where not everyone is using meters, it makes more sense to just be active and dps, regardless of the numbers. So, yeah. I do see a big difference between WoW and FF14.

(Note, as a holy priest, I did notice a shift in the latest expansion. My DPS numbers definitely shot up and therefore I was more inclined to DPS).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by craized

The important thing is that the goal is accomplished. If it takes 5 minutes longer to complete, so be it. Besides dps is a fundamental function of a tank because it provides agro. There's no way in hell a tank spamming flash is going to retain agro. Dps is not a function of a healer, its an added bonus. There to be used by those comfortable with juggling two very disseparate roles. Neither a tank nor dps has such a responsibility.

---

I disagree. It's not an added bonus, it's part of an entire toolkit that helps in the mitigation of damage to your party. As someone once pointed out, they disabled Cleric Stance in PvP, so if they didn't want healers doing any damage in dungeons then they could disable it there. They haven't. It really would be a lot longer than 5 minutes if everyone put in bare minimum.

this may not go down too well on here, but here goes.
what i find in this game is the tanks pull 8-10 mobs in one hit, leaving orange circles of crap everywhere from the mobs & then run around corners so they cant be healed (los) with sometimes less than 50% health. the dps blindly following on behind the tank & so im working my arse off trying to keep everyone alive.
if by chance things may be a little slow when it comes to a boss fight, then i think ive earned the right to take a breather & get some mana back because you can be as sure as hell the tanks will be flying off to the next set of mobs before i even have a chance to roll on an item.

A) this isn't about what SE wants. It's about what players want

B) They took out cleric stance from pvp because it made healers overpowered against other players and this has absolutely no bearing on pve content.

3) Everyone saying healers who only heal are lazy and yet expect healers to do two jobs while they only have one is the very definition of irony in my opinion.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by imjustahealer

Snip

---

I totally hear you. In situations like that, you have to focus on healing and being vigilant about your mana. I don't think anyone here is suggesting otherwise. It's when we have lots of mana, there is hardly any damage going out, and we are hopping around out of boredom that is causing the contention.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by vigioX-Sun

But is only 5 sec CD.

---

More than enough time to drop the tank even if you continue to heal anyways. The reduction to healing is substantial.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by craized

3) Everyone saying healers who only heal are lazy and yet expect healers to do two jobs while they only have one is the very definition of irony in my opinion.

---

They do single job that requires both healing and dpsing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by imjustahealer

this may not go down too well on here, but here goes.
what i find in this game is the tanks pull 8-10 mobs in one hit, leaving orange circles of crap everywhere from the mobs & then run around corners so they cant be healed (los) with sometimes less than 50% health.

---

Every role should play their part.
A tank making it difficult for a healer to heal them, or turning enemies towards the group = bad
DPS should try to move out of aoe, unless they can be sure that they can self-heal through it (second wind, potions etc...). Sometimes it's worth the extra damage for the small amount of damage some aoes do. You get used to those and know when you can get away with it.
Healers mitigating damage by doing damage themselves.

If you're having to heal through people playing badly then most won't hold it against you if you don't do damage because there's a real risk of the entire party wiping.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dsync

I disagree. It's not an added bonus, it's part of an entire toolkit that helps in the mitigation of damage to your party. As someone once pointed out, they disabled Cleric Stance in PvP, so if they didn't want healers doing any damage in dungeons then they could disable it there. They haven't. It really would be a lot longer than 5 minutes if everyone put in bare minimum.

---

And that's where you're wrong. A role isn't builded by the toolkit of their integrants. It's the other way around. If SCH is a healer job, is not because it's branded as such but because it has a toolkit that allows him to make what a healer does: keeping the party alive. There's not such thing as a non pure role because the role just says what kind of actions is a job specialized into.

Healers have offensive abilities, right. Because they NEED them. How else are they going to level up alone? Healing mobs to death?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by craized

B) They took out cleric stance from pvp because it made healers overpowered against other players and this has absolutely no bearing on pve content.

3) Everyone saying healers who only heal are lazy and yet expect healers to do two jobs while they only have one is the very definition of irony in my opinion.

---

B: But they could remove it if they didn't want healers to do damage. The feature is already there.
C: Support.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by PomPomFlare

They do single job that requires both healing and dpsing.

---

No, no they don't, when they queue, they join as a "healer" not a "heals and dps".

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BokoToloko

Healers have offensive abilities, right. Because they NEED them. How else are they going to level up alone? Healing mobs to death?

---

Please show me where SE/Yoshi have stated that they only added healer damage so they could do stuff single player, and that they didn't want it used in dungeons.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BokoToloko

And that\\'s where you\\'re wrong. A role isn\\'t builded by the toolkit of their integrants. It\\'s the other way around. If SCH is a healer job, is not because it\\'s branded as such but because it has a toolkit that allows him to make what a healer does: keeping the party alive. There\\'s not such thing as a non pure role because the role just says what kind of actions is a job specialized into.

Healers have offensive abilities, right. Because they NEED them. How else are they going to level up alone? Healing mobs to death?

---

Exactly This!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dsync

Please show me where SE/Yoshi have stated that they only added healer damage so they could do stuff single player, and that they didn't want it used in dungeons.

---

They didn't, they have left it down to the player to choose how best to use their abilities. That's what this whole discussion boils down to. However, without damage abilities, healing classes wouldn't be able to level, which would pretty much screw it up for everyone right?

Fine, then DPS can just press one button like a Scholar who spams adloquium and jumps around. They're still doing damage. This thread has just reaffirmed that there are many lazy players out there that deserve their kick.