Do you want a cash shop in FFXIV?

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Originally Posted by irongripz

they could also give people a way to farm cash shop currency, in game.

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Cut the middleman and just allow the items to be obtained by normal gameplay? Also it does, anytime SE offered something that is similar to what cashshops does, there's an uproar about it. You buy merchandise (i.e use real money) and get an in-game item, that's basically the same as a cash shop (trading real money for items), if people get upset over that, how do you think a cashshop would go over?

Most successful MMOs eventually integrate in multiple avenues of revenue generation. Though introducing an MMO into the market for the first 1-5 years should hold back on too many options.

It's best to offer other options when an MMO is seasoned. When the subscriber base is at it's prime and and the sub base begins to decline that's when a company generally spurs growth by adding options.

WoW did it with it's collectible offline card game with codes for in-game. Lord of the Rings Online was failing and went the free to play model. There's a rhyme or reason to do certain things...

The core player base for FFXIV and FFXI is pretty solid or will be. There's no reason to move into multiple money making schemes. SE's main staple for games is story...and people pay for the rich environment of which to play in.

The Free to Play model of cash shops is generally regarded as a cheap method of obtaining profit and appealing to the rich people to rise to the top by paying their way. Such games then generally lack in substance or content or appeal unless you pay into the cash shop model.

I'm gonna simply state it this way and anyone can totally disagree. But the base for Cash Shop games is always small, maybe 10% if that of the population pays for anything (It does generate a lot of money...it certainly caters to people who have obsessive compulsive disorder), the quality of game is usually subpar, the community because it's saturated with nonpaying players is usually horrendous. Overall, people get tired of it really quickly and lots of huge drama all the time...and eventually the player doesn't stick around more then a few months.

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Originally Posted by Cendres

Your facts are blurred by your own bias and therefore are flawed. Try looking up the actual facts. Those so called 'failed' games did not just survive their transition to freemium they thrived.

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Sure they "thrived", in a quantity >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> quality way. What type of players did they attract? what sort of community did it built? what are the quality of the contents after the change? what sort of game-play did it encourage?

yea, that's what I thought. TBH, if i wanted to play Farmville/Maplestory/clone#28234789, I'd go play those games.

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Originally Posted by Cendres

The proof is in the pudding. Doesn't matter much to me because I've finally come to the realization that these are just different ways of supporting something I love doing.

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Didn't realize you love paying for stuff you shouldn't have to anyway. BTW, I have a couple bridges I'd like to sell...

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Originally Posted by Cendres

I've heard and even said myself that I would quit MMOs forever if cash shops became the norm, but I've had to really look at it a lot more closely since then. The key is to steer the model to something you're comfortable with. Don't like pay to win items? Don't support it. But companies have already learned that lesson anyway.

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Guess what, the inevitable end to the cash shop model IS pay to win. They may be able to stave it off for awhile, but that's where they all end up.

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Originally Posted by Cendres

What isn't really being discussed enough here is that the freemium model offers more freedom for the customer and yet brings in more revenue because people are more likely to find your game more attractive if the entry point is open. It's not really about the evils of cash shops but more about offering diversity and options. Which is why I firmly believe that freemium and subscription hybrids will become the norm and not the crappy exception very soon, and one could argue it's already like this.

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a freemium model depends on luring in as many people as they possibly can with the highest percentage of stupid people as they can so they'd actually pay for the fluffy stuff.

@Aenarion

I agree with a lot of what you said, except the freemium part. I believe this one can be done right such as Dungeons and dragons online. Which allows you to pay a subscription, buy pieces of the game individually and permanently, or play just the free areas.

Though that particular example has nothing to do with this argument going on in this thread.

This game should have nothing to do with a cash shop, I do not care about other games if they have cash shops or not. I'm playing FFXIV because I like FFXIV for what it is and what it may possibly be in the future. If I hear of a Cash Shop it immediately becomes something I will not enjoy. Then I move onto a different game; like I have done in the past when I don't enjoy something or disliked the direction it was going in. There are a thousand games out there that have been ruined by cash shops or have low player base retention. And sadly games like DDO are the exception and not the norm.

I still do not understand this want of asking for things that you have to pay cash for that should be content. I really believe WoW and CoD has turned this generation of gamers' minds to mush. It's really bad when the businesses make a blatant cash grab its even worse when consumers act like zombies and not only buy into but ask for it. To me its like going to prison and asking big bubba to give it to you.

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Originally Posted by Aenarion

a freemium model depends on luring in as many people as they possibly can with the highest percentage of stupid people as they can so they'd actually pay for the fluffy stuff.

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And this is why no reasonable discussion can be had on this matter if you persist in thinking so. Have a nice next 3 years my friend it might prove to be a rough time for you.

Someone look up a free to play game with a cash shop and compare the financial stability with that of one that charges a monthly fee. Then come back and tell me the cash shop is a good idea. >.> If you can do this, then gold star for you, you can take the helmet off and I'll allow you to cross my bridge.

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Originally Posted by Nuru

Someone look up a free to play game with a cash shop and compare the financial stability with that of one that charges a monthly fee. Then come back and tell me the cash shop is a good idea. >.> If you can do this, then gold star for you, you can take the helmet off and I'll allow you to cross my bridge.

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I'll reverse that for you, find me evidence that they do worse.

Some reading if anyone cares: The Free Zone: Everyone is Going F2P This is not by some kid, nvm it's on MMORPG.com

The last paragraph is what I feel is really important:

Also looking forward, Blanco expresses his belief that F2P and subscription can co-exist because they address different consumer preferences. "I like empowerment, and having the ability to choose how I want to patronize a game means a lot to me. For me, a subscription is a heavy commitment that represents a willingness to say I want to play this fun title for the foreseeable future and support it, its developers, and publishers. I also wish more games I subscribe to offered micro-transactions on some level. I believe they can all work together in a proper balance, especially for virtual world games, but it requires careful analysis and understanding of what players want from a game when they decide to pay."

Free For All Why someone chooses not to P2P.

Thing is we may think we have a lot of power hanging in these online communities with people who think very similarly, but we are just a small part of the whole consumer base and if MMOs want to keep going as they have they'll have to figure out ways to be competitive. Guild Wars 2 (sorry!) never had a sub fee, they will have an in game cash shop and sell a lot of merchandise on the side. This works well for them and the game as far as we know is of high quality. And that's just one example. I do believe Kingdoms of Amalur is going freemium too but not too sure. If it is, it will be the first major title to release as such. Maybe then perceptions will start changing on what it means to have diverse ways of payment.

Great, then go on and play your commitment-free F2P games, but stay the fk out of my games. I don't want nor care for the type of gameplay that are inevitably brought on by the advent of cash shops in MMOs.

from the same article you linked:

"At first, sales went down a bit. After some time though, they levelled out and actually began to increase from their previous state, given the same average numbers of concurrent players. Extra health and mana potions, elixir buffs, items and all the other categories of micro-transaction purchases started to go up.

You seem to have taken this to be a debate on the validity of the F2P model as a whole, while the rest of us are talking about the validity of a cash shop in FF14. You like F2P, we get it, go enjoy it, just leave that shit outside FF14, it doesn't need to be everywhere.

How is this even worth discussing?

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Originally Posted by Skyrant_Kangaroomouse

How is this even worth discussing?

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because some people evidently think they obviously aren't paying enough money for things they don't need to be paying for in the first place.

@Aenarion

He he.. Touched a nerve much? Yes they do mention potions but they do end with my bolded quote that the trick is to figure out what people are willing to pay for and provide accordingly, I've already said before that most companies realize the potion thing is really not something to stick with on a long term basis. And I foresee those items dying out.

My point regarding FFXIV is that I don't see the problem as long as it's done right. You're free to not agree, as you haven't. But that's how I see it and I've provided my side on why. There you go.

edit: As for you to tell me to get to F out of your game, which is rude and not really necessary, what will you do when your game and my game are the same thing? Will you stop playing these games? I've had to ask myself that question and this how I've come to this. Cash shop was not always something I was behind at all. So do direct your anger somewhere else.

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Originally Posted by Cendres

@Aenarion

He he.. Touched a nerve much? Yes they do mention potions but they do end with my bolded quote that the trick is to figure out what people are willing to pay for and provide accordingly, I've already said before that most companies realize the potion thing is really not something to stick with on a long term basis. And I foresee those items dying out.

My point regarding FFXIV is that I don't see the problem as long as it's done right. You're free to not agree, as you haven't. But that's how I see it and I've provided my side on why. There you go.

edit: As for you to tell me to get to F out of your game, which is rude and not really necessary, what will you do when your game and my game are the same thing? Will you stop playing these games? I've had to ask myself that question and this how I've come to this. Cash shop was not always something I was behind at all. So do direct your anger somewhere else.

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but before i shout for a cash shop ("here my money, here you'll get my money") i would ask for getting it for free (real money) ingame? its a little bit ridiciulous to ask for that. isnt it?

or you are missing the cash shop you have been addicted to in a f2p game. that could be a second reason. the third could be "hah, i have a pet which no other one has"


"AION" for example had a coexisting cash shop.. with the p2p payment model. i think no one liked it. except those who wanted be in the foreground... buying something in the shop which no other player has. for example white color for armor, a special pet etc..
and thats what makes you addicted. (they want YOUR MONEY)


but you always have to know... its just for the money why those cash shops do exist.
it should have been no problem for the developers to offer "white" color for ingame money at an ingame npc.


a f2p MMO finances itself through the cash shop, p2p finances itsel through a monthly fee and all "extras" (except server transfer for example) are for free ingame. and they should stick to that.


Asking for a cash shop in Final Fantasy XIV is like you would ask for "Please let me pay a monthly fee of 40 dollars.. 12 dollars arent enough) its a bit ridiculous isnt it?

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Originally Posted by Tonkra

but before i shout for a cash shop ("here my money, here you'll get my money") i would ask for getting it for free (real money) ingame? its a little bit ridiciulous to ask for that. isnt it?

or you are missing the cash shop you have been addicted to in a f2p game. that could be a second reason. the third could be "hah, i have a pet which no other one has"

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It's just sad... Why would anyone want to pay more money?

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Originally Posted by Tonkra

but before i shout for a cash shop ("here my money, here you'll get my money") i would ask for getting it for free (real money) ingame? its a little bit ridicioulous to ask that.

or you are missing the cash shop you have been addicted to in a f2p game. that could be a second reason.

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Read my previous posts, especially the ones with the articles. Not everyone is willing to commit to a sub fee for a set amount every month for every game. You have to choose and many today are choosing not to choose, that is to say no P2P games at all. This is significant. Especially for a game like FFXIV that is in dire need of attracting more people to it.

I know I will play this until it shuts down or the appeal wears off, which I don't foresee happening soon, but I know people who were excited for the release of this game that simply will not try it after 2.0 for a subscription. What will this mean? We'll have to see. Hopefully it means nothing and the Ps3 community makes up for the loss of some of the PC people. I really hope so.

Heh getting way off the OP anyway. Have fun dudes.

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Originally Posted by Cendres

@Aenarion

He he.. Touched a nerve much? Yes they do mention potions but they do end with my bolded quote that the trick is to figure out what people are willing to pay for and provide accordingly, I've already said before that most companies realize the potion thing is really not something to stick with on a long term basis. And I foresee those items dying out.

My point regarding FFXIV is that I don't see the problem as long as it's done right. You're free to not agree, as you haven't. But that's how I see it and I've provided my side on why. There you go.

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We've had to go through the same BS not so long ago in Eve Online, and if you doubt that there can be substantial negative response to the presence of cash shops in a subscription-based game that offer nothing but vanity items, you only need to look at that incident. Suffice to say that in the end CCP had to slash workforce, close down offices, and for all intents and purposes scuttling their WiS portion of the game after losing a substantial number of subscribers who quit in protest of the direction the company was going.

You say the trick is to figure out what people are willing to pay for and and provide accordingly, but what you can't seem to understand is that in some cases this may very well be nothing. The cash shop model does not, and should not be present in every single game.

And yes, if FF14 becomes a lolcashshop game, I'm packing up and leaving.

I've also heard that EVE online is adjusting their model. So no it doesn't invalidate anything. EVE's little stunt was an experiment that proved you can't push too far on pixel items. Something that ended up costing dearly and am sure others are paying close attention.

Making an MMO is a gamble in any way whether it's subscription or free or a hybrid, again I do stick that the trick is finding the winning formula.

As for paying nothing, in all honesty you end up wanting to pay for a game that treats you fair over a game that forces you to pay for things. Sure there are going to be younger people who'll get a free ride, but even in a freemium game there can only get so far and see so much for nothing. For some people that will be okay, but for your core group it won't and those are the people you want hooked. Gotta find the right hook.

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Originally Posted by Cendres

Making an MMO is a gamble in any way whether it's subscription or free or a hybrid, again I do stick that the trick is finding the winning formula.

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The winning formula is having a good game that will keep people playing.

Which this game presently doesn't.

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Originally Posted by Cendres

I've also heard that EVE online is adjusting their model. So no it doesn't invalidate anything. EVE's little stunt was an experiment that proved you can't push too far on pixel items. Something that ended up costing dearly and am sure others are paying close attention.

Making an MMO is a gamble in any way whether it's subscription or free or a hybrid, again I do stick that the trick is finding the winning formula.

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but as a player you dont need to pay extramoney when you are paying yet a monthly fee. why should i?

i mean shouting for a cash shop in FFXIV is like you were asking for increasing the monthly fee "please let me pay 40 dollars a month, 12 dollars arent enough"


they can make all stuff for ingame currency, a cash shop isnt needed for a p2p game.
really .... you have not to worry about the developer not getting enough money.. seriously...
they get a BUNCH of money with that..


but if it isnt successful many developers often try to convert to f2p for hoping to get more players. but its not at all like that, that p2p isnt a good business. sure it is...

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Originally Posted by Aenarion

We've had to go through the same BS not so long ago in Eve Online, and if you doubt that there can be substantial negative response to the presence of cash shops in a subscription-based game that offer nothing but vanity items, you only need to look at that incident. Suffice to say that in the end CCP had to slash workforce, close down offices, and for all intents and purposes scuttling their WiS portion of the game after losing a substantial number of subscribers who quit in protest of the direction the company was going.

You say the trick is to figure out what people are willing to pay for and and provide accordingly, but what you can't seem to understand is that in some cases this may very well be nothing. The cash shop model does not, and should not be present in every single game.

And yes, if FF14 becomes a lolcashshop game, I'm packing up and leaving.

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(Goodbye!) (Let's play together again sometime.)

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Originally Posted by Tonkra

but as a player you dont need to pay extramoney when you are paying yet a monthly fee. why should i?

i mean shouting for a cash shop in FFXIV is like you were asking for increasing the monthly fee "please let me pay 40 dollars a month, 12 dollars arent enough"


they can make all stuff for ingame currency, a cash shop isnt needed for a p2p game.

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I'm not shouting for anything I'm just stating something. The thread isn't asking if we should have a cash shop but if we think it's a good idea. Do I care if FFXIV personally has a cash shop or not? No I really don't, as long as I can play, I'll pay for it.

That said I wouldn't rage if let's say they added WoW's new pet shop for real money. 12 dollars a month, or what is it now? 9.99? Is really cheap, if they want to make money on the side with pretty glittery pets or mounts, that's fine.

Okay here's a question then. If they never add any type of cash shop, which knowing SE is entirely possible and I'm leaning that way anyway; would you be okay if they raise the monthly to 14.99 to a maximum of 19.99 a month?

I'm sure most of you will say hell yes, but think will others not in this community think that's a good idea? I've seen this question asked in the Rift forums before their launch and the results were all in favor of it. Which raises the question whether a fan community can really be trusted.

Anyway!

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Originally Posted by Lavani

(Goodbye!) (Let's play together again sometime.)

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heh... yes, because FF14 is already a F2P game w/ cash shops

oh wait

until then, gtfo

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Originally Posted by Cendres

That said I wouldn't rage if let's say they added WoW's new pet shop for real money. 12 dollars a month, or what is it now? 9.99? Is really cheap, if they want to make money on the side with pretty glittery pets or mounts, that's fine.

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And why is that okay? they can implement pretty glittery pets for free and ingame... making quests to get them or for much much ingame money.

so why is that okay? blizzard makes billions of money profit a month (besides all fix costs) with the monthly fee only. they want to milk the cow. you as a addicted consumer and thats all. its not like blizz doesnt get enough money with millions of subscriber you know.

so what is going on in your mind?.. why is that ok? i dont get it sorry.

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Okay here's a question then. If they never add any type of cash shop, which knowing SE is entirely possible and I'm leaning that way anyway; would you be okay if they raise the monthly to 14.99 to a maximum of 19.99 a month?

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why the heck should they? do you thing SE is becoming impoverished or what?? ;Oo lol

in Lineage II for example what did i get for my monthly fee of 10 dollars? just playing the game, cool new ingame stuff like breeding your own dragon, content patches, and real big addons as well (about 7 addons till today?!). JUST for FREE... so within this monthly fee the costs of : server, customer support, game development have been included

AND NCSOFT even maked profit just with that fee besides running costs (like development team which always worked on new content etc). although a big development team worked on huge addons etc.

there you see also a difference between blizzard and NCSoft. NCSoft gives away the addons for free. Blizzard wants to have your money for that (i mean i maybe would do the same as a developer, i can almost double the profit for some months)


but it just isnt that about, that a monthly fee isnt enough for a good running MMorpg to make good money profit... no trust me, it is. thats why every dumb developer wants to start a new MMorpg. because if it's running well.. you'll receive a bunch of money.

the monthly fee doesnt only cover the costs... i think 2-4 dollars would be enough then (for wow for example)... no they get a lot of profit out of it.

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Originally Posted by Cendres

I've also heard that EVE online is adjusting their model. So no it doesn't invalidate anything. EVE's little stunt was an experiment that proved you can't push too far on pixel items. Something that ended up costing dearly and am sure others are paying close attention.

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orly, EVE is adjusting their model eh? I must've have forgotten that memo...

oh wait, I didn't. Unless you count a public apology from the CEO and a pledge to return development resource to the core of the game instead of the fluff to be "adjusting their model".

edit: and yes, I actually am currently playing EVE as well, so please don't tell me what the game is like

Much of the outrage wasn't actually because of the "monocles", hilariously overpriced though it is, but rather the perceived direction the game was heading towards, of which the emergence of the cash shop exemplified. You can say that it wasn't because CCP pushed too far with its cash shops, but rather that it pushed it at all.

The future of MMO gaming may very well be a hybrid system or F2P of some sort, but not today, and certainly not the way those models work atm.

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Originally Posted by Aenarion

heh... yes, because FF14 is already a F2P game w/ cash shops

oh wait

until then, gtfo

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rwar i like 'em feisty.

I also like the overly used GTFO :D.

KTHXBAI

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Originally Posted by Lavani

rwar i like 'em feisty.

I also like the overly used GTFO :D.

KTHXBAI

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/shrug, the quality of my replies reflects what I think about the quality of the post I'm replying to

edit: You know what, never mind. It's not worth it.