Report All the people Selling AND Buying houses in PF

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

Since that was clearly over your head, I'll explain it to you.

You provide evidence, call it unimpeachable absolute proof. Equally valid evidence is given to the contrary, you ignore it and continue to claim your absolute proof.

I did the exact same thing you did, except ignoring different evidence.

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Seem's to me that even if Yoshi himself told you it was against the ToS you would say/imply that he is a liar though not to his face but on these forums. If the evidence supplied saying it is against the ToS was indeed from a GM supervisor and not just a normal GM and/or if was a newer reply than the one your using against it then sorry to tell you this but the one saying it is against the ToS would be much 'more' valid and not 'equally' valid. Regardless of whether SE was more lenient in the past or if the normal GM was giving the wrong information when said was just frowned upon, if the one the other person linked is newer and/or from a supervisor then that is enough evidence that whatever the case might have been in the past...it is currently against the ToS.

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Originally Posted by Snugglebutt

Seem's to me that even if Yoshi himself told you it was against the ToS you would say/imply that he is a liar though not to his face but on these forums. If the evidence supplied saying it is against the ToS was indeed from a GM supervisor and not just a normal GM and/or if was a newer reply than the one your using against it then sorry to tell you this but the one saying it is against the ToS would be much 'more' valid and not 'equally' valid. Regardless of whether SE was more lenient in the past or if the normal GM was giving the wrong information when said was just frowned upon, if the one the other person linked is newer and/or from a supervisor then that is enough evidence that whatever the case might have been in the past...it is currently against the ToS.

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No, enough evidence is when they come out and make an official statement. They have yet to do that despite countless requests. Until then, we have conflicting information.

Deranged or greedy, or most likely both.

He just keeps going despite images clearly showing GM supervisor saying house resale is against ToS and that all the GM's would be informed to be on the same page. And he thinks he is winning the argument even though he's failing as bad as Rhitahtyn sas Arvina trying to solo eight players.

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Originally Posted by Alleo

But since they put in that new 45 days system you will get something back?? It wont be 100% of the price you paid but around 70% of your gil will be paid back so not sure why you say that you will get nothing out of it?
The perfect way to handle such a thing would be giving up your house by talking to a npc and maybe getting 95% of your gil back or something like that. No way for other people to sell houses and if you dont want one anymore you will get most of your money back. But sadly SE likes to go the difficult exploitable ways..

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this but at the same time you only get back plot costs. you don't get back any money spent on fixtures interior or such things that can't be removed such as aetheryte mail boxes etc. exterior or the cost of the building permit itself......

this is why I suggested a direct transfer where I could literally hand over ownership to a tenant or third party and in this fashion I could possibly get some reimbursement for those fixtures and stuff.

the main reason I don't sell my house is because ultimately whoever would buy it from me via the party finder would have to pay twice. and they shouldn't have to.

a way to sell back to npcs would definitely be better than what we have now. but I do feel a direct transfer system is also needed in some fashion. maybe I decide to unsub for a few months and go travelling, I think its a bit unfair then that my teneants who have helped furnish and decorate our home be evicted cos I haven't logged in...

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Originally Posted by MikeWW

Deranged or greedy, or most likely both.

He just keeps going despite images clearly showing GM supervisor saying house resale is against ToS and that all the GM's would be informed to be on the same page. And he thinks he is winning the argument even though he's failing as bad as Rhitahtyn sas Arvina trying to solo eight players.

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http://puu.sh/kkDhi/f7fe4c8233.png

Images are not proof. We need an official statement made.

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Originally Posted by Snugglebutt

Seem's to me that even if Yoshi himself told you it was against the ToS you would say/imply that he is a liar though not to his face but on these forums.

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I would accept an official statement from SE, but we still don't have one. All we have is hearsay and screenshots of things said to individuals in game.

Think its safe to say they wont give an official response till they have checked their own ToS and had it cleared through legal. ToS goes both ways it is in a way a contract that SE themselves can also "break" to legal consequence. YoshiP and SE just tend to underestimate the western market and its tendency to "play the system" XD They shouldn't have to cover every single possible "fair play" angle, but that doesn't mean they don't need too.

(won't lie alot of my comment is speculation, but would be curious to know if Japanese players/servers are going through a similar scenario. Should also note not all NA/EU servers are going through this, for the most part seems those that bought in Hyperion are using what they bought)

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Originally Posted by Gumbercules

Think its safe to say they wont give an official response till they have checked their own ToS and had it cleared through legal. ToS goes both ways it is in a way a contract that SE themselves can also "break" to legal consequence. YoshiP and SE just tend to underestimate the western market and its tendency to "play the system" XD They shouldn't have to cover every single possible "fair play" angle, but that doesn't mean they don't need too.

(won't lie alot of my comment is speculation, but would be curious to know if Japanese players/servers are going through a similar scenario. Should also note not all NA/EU servers are going through this, for the most part seems those that bought in Hyperion are using what they bought)

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Ive heard the japanese players dont have this problem...but not for sure since I cant speak Japanese

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

I would accept an official statement from SE, but we still don't have one. All we have is hearsay and screenshots of things said to individuals in game.

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And if we don't raise a fuss about it, I don't think we'll ever get one.

That's what all this is about, all the forum threads, all the reporting.
We need to show that it's enough of an issue that they need to make that statement.

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Originally Posted by TaranTatsuuchi

And if we don't raise a fuss about it, I don't think we'll ever get one.

That's what all this is about, all the forum threads, all the reporting.
We need to show that it's enough of an issue that they need to make that statement.

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The statement should be made before punishing players. As it is, people are asking that players who are confused on whether this is allowed or not be punished.

The sad thing is that even with stuff that is clearly stated being against ToS, like botting for example, the GM's barely do anything to punish such behaviour. I see same characters with obvious bot behaviour gather low level stuff at exact same locations almost every day (Odin server, just outside Ul'dah) and they have been doing this for months. And remember when spiritbonding was a thing? Remember those "turret" bots who stood at certain locations, rotating to scan for enemies? Those stood around for days.. Even the super obvious naked teleporter bots aren't being dealt with quick enough.

With GM's letting all that slide why are "we" expecting any clear response to house selling? Again I see same people trying to flip houses in PF since patch day without any consequences. Perhaps I am daft like Rhitahtyn sas Arvina and should look at these 100% proof screenshots a little closer?

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Originally Posted by TaranTatsuuchi

And if we don't raise a fuss about it, I don't think we'll ever get one.

That's what all this is about, all the forum threads, all the reporting.
We need to show that it's enough of an issue that they need to make that statement.

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Yeah, like when I actually made change in a game from reporting people and writing to them about the issue.

So, I had an idea.
So say Enix implements a House auction/reclamation thing. You sell your house back for say 80% of the plot's worth, and then they auction it off, where you can get about maybe 25? 30% of the profit from the auction (note: would still use existing prices for buying the house) and then someone can get that house you just have nothing to do with :O Everyone wins (except the jerks who flip houses for 20m)

Yoshi - P finally did make a statement in the E3 live letter saying that house flipping is a reportable offense. Though I suspect people will still claim that since it's not written specifically in the ToS that it doesn't matter and is not to be considered one regardless.

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Originally Posted by Dimitrii

Yoshi - P finally did make a statement in the E3 live letter saying that house flipping is a reportable offense. Though I suspect people will still claim that since it's not written specifically in the ToS that it doesn't matter and is not to be considered one regardless.

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It will never be written word for word in the ToS. That doesn't make it right, and it should be reported. Good to know he answered that question. I was expecting it to be skipped over. :P

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Originally Posted by Dimitrii

Yoshi - P finally did make a statement in the E3 live letter saying that house flipping is a reportable offense. Though I suspect people will still claim that since it's not written specifically in the ToS that it doesn't matter and is not to be considered one regardless.

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Well, if Yoshi has said something, that's about as official as you can get...

I didn't watch the live letter myself, actually I don't think I've watched any of them.

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Originally Posted by Dimitrii

Yoshi - P finally did make a statement in the E3 live letter saying that house flipping is a reportable offense. Though I suspect people will still claim that since it's not written specifically in the ToS that it doesn't matter and is not to be considered one regardless.

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Thank the gods...now if only they would address the housing dilemma

YoshiP just stated it's against ToS and needs to be reported on both ends...
Soooo yeah.
Report people.

Remember he said for "exorbitant" amounts. Reasonable prices are ok. Are people just going to selective hear him.

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Originally Posted by Ranzan

Remember he said for "exorbitant" amounts. Reasonable prices are ok. Are people just going to selective hear him.

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Well anything like above 10m for a small would be "exorbitant" compared to the actual game price :T

Pretty sure anything that's above the plot's price is reportable, to be honest. People shouldn't be making a profit from a house. Heck, they shouldn't even be getting their money back at all, considering the way the system is. They're lucky they're being given the permission to ask for what they've paid.

Anyway, any more than the plot's worth will be interpreted by some people as "I can sell it however high I want."

That's the thing. It's didn't really solve much. "Exorbitant price" is very subjective. Like for example I sell my small for 5 mil (that's what it cost when I purchased it). One person can say thats exorbitant and another can say it's not. Who's right?

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Originally Posted by Ranzan

That's the thing. It's didn't really solve much. "Exorbitant price" is very subjective. Like for example I sell my small for 5 mil (that's what it cost when I purchased it). One person can say thats exorbitant and another can say it's not. Who's right?

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Tis a good point...I cant counter this one. But imo, exorbitant is something say...3x or more of the original price...so say: 3m plot...9m is too much (like all the money me and my friends are raising for a small)

What it solves is no more "Small lavander house, ward XX, plot XX for sell 50 mil hurhur take it or leave it I charge what I want" or other variations of such ridiculous sales across the other wards. If you choose to sell your house you do so at your own risk cause it's already been stated that action can be taken against you. You will be at the mercy of whatever GM you get in determining whether or not the price you are trying to sell your house at is considered "exuberant" or not. It will be up to the seller now if they wanna take this risk not knowing definitively what's considered exuberant and trying to flip houses anyway despite the statements warning against it as well as the lack of any statement from SE saying flipping houses was acceptable in the first place.

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Originally Posted by Avera

Tis a good point...I cant counter this one. But imo, exorbitant is something say...3x or more of the original price...so say: 3m plot...9m is too much (like all the money me and my friends are raising for a small)

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Originally Posted by Ranzan

That's the thing. It's didn't really solve much. "Exorbitant price" is very subjective. Like for example I sell my small for 5 mil (that's what it cost when I purchased it). One person can say thats exorbitant and another can say it's not. Who's right?

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It would be up to SE's GMs reviewing the case to decide.

I think the issue here is that we as players were never meant to 'sell' plots between ourselves. It's like buying a piece of armor from an NPC vendor - once you use it you don't get to sell it on the market for whatever price you decide. You're only allowed to sell it back to a vendor (for a pitiful refund) or desynth/materia it. If you no longer wish to use a housing plot, you're allowed the option of leaving it unused for 45 days - after which you recover 80% of the price paid to the system for the plot as well as most of your furnishings. You lose out on fees paid for rooms and workshops, whatever you paid for special furnishings, and whatever you paid for interior/exterior structures like walls/roof/floors.

Compared to what you lose when you sell a vendor-purchased item to an NPC, this is actually highly generous.

Given that the system was designed that you cannot sell a housing plot directly to another player, it's feasible that the GMs can rule that asking for ANYTHING to relinquish a plot counts as exorbitant, because what it does is artificially increase the price for the buyer beyond what the system was initially designed for.

For the seller, putting a 5th class small plot up for sale for 3 million might be just so they recover 100% of what was initially paid for it instead of the 80% they get for reclamation, but for the buyer that has effectively doubled the price of the plot since they have to pay off the seller AND still pay the system price.

They should just make it so, that relinquished plots become buyable again at a random time between 16h-48h.

'Reselling' would be near to impossible then.

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Originally Posted by Avera

Thank the gods...now if only they would address the housing dilemma

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They actually said that they understand the issue with housing, and are trying to get it solved. So far they are hoping apartments will help solve the personal housing issue. Please keep in mind that it's not going to be an over night fix. Their faulty system is gonna take time. Although it's not ideal, but they are trying to fix it. Just gotta be patient. They are thinking of those wanting homes.

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Originally Posted by LadyKairi

They actually said that they understand the issue with housing, and are trying to get it solved. So far they are hoping apartments will help solve the personal housing issue. Please keep in mind that it's not going to be an over night fix. Their faulty system is gonna take time. Although it's not ideal, but they are trying to fix it. Just gotta be patient. They are thinking of those wanting homes.

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Yeah, perhaps an asymmetric allocation of wards would help.
More wards on the more populus servers.

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Originally Posted by Zelas

Pretty sure anything that's above the plot's price is reportable, to be honest. People shouldn't be making a profit from a house. Heck, they shouldn't even be getting their money back at all, considering the way the system is. They're lucky they're being given the permission to ask for what they've paid.

Anyway, any more than the plot's worth will be interpreted by some people as "I can sell it however high I want."

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Well I would say a bit above to be honest to cover the cost of the house and furniture that's destroyed.

If someone's willing to pay 10x the game price, is it really exorbitant?

No buying just for flipping? Buy plot, put up house, sit on it for a month, then sell. "I didn't buy to flip, I thought I wanted a house then realized I didn't."

It's half a step in the right direction.

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Originally Posted by Masekase_Hurricane

Well I would say a bit above to be honest to cover the cost of the house and furniture that's destroyed.

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No, that is an entitled line of thinking. Houses were never meant to be sold in the first place and the game doesn't even permit the selling of used equipment considering the Binding system. Housing is an investment and if you honestly didn't care enough about it to risk not only losing the money spent on purchase, but also that placed into it over the course of your lease, then honestly I don't know why it was even purchased in the first place.

Even if the idea is just to attempt to upgrade then that should not be the responsibility of the buyer to cater for. When you place an item you are committed to destroying it's monetary value; even if the idea was just to temporarily remove it to test something then that's on you, not anyone else. If anything, the focus should be on SE to allow a hard transfer or a temporary inventory for housing items that cannot be returned to the inventory. Anything else is just people trying to completely avoid the consequences that come with having second thoughts on a home/taking a gamble at upgrading.

It could be just as simple as being able to put your plot or plot+house up for sale through the placard it just picks the current plot price and puts it up for sale.
The person that sells the plot gets his/her money back and others can buy it for normal plot price +house permit.

Or just have the relinquishes land give back % of the plot price and it would solve most of the issues.

See that's the problem like you said SE has designed the system in a method that it is not meant to be sold. Which means very few risk upgrading in case they lose their land. Only real way to sell your house at the moment is not enter it for a few months. Even then you are still back to square one as most likely will be no plots to buy for an upgrade after a few months.

Sorry the selling player should get plot and permit price back at the very least. Without an incentive to sell or secure way to upgrade houses will not return to market.
Also cant compare to gear at least with that you can desynth, convert or trade in for points. The house owner is getting nothing back currently.

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

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Why don't you try this and let us know how it turns out for you? Ultimately neither your nor any other player's definition of "exuberant" or "house flipping" is gonna matter because they aren't the ones making the decisions in the rulings.

If you buy a house and then a month later decide you never really wanted a house in the first place why not just relinquish the house like SE intended in the first place? There's no denying that SE royally fkd up with the institution of the housing system but the players exacerbated the situation with their feeling of entitlement. Housing was clearly developed with the intention of it being a gil sink (one of the very few in game) and thus no sale feature between players was added along with it. When you buy the house u did so knowing there would be no refund if you should feel the need to relinquish it for whatever reason. But nope players complained about that and yet even after instituting the auto demolish system which gives back 80% of the gil spent players still ended up selling houses because they felt entitled to not only recoup all losses but make a profit on top of that.

^^Actually no. Since they brought in housing they promised a transfer service to upgrade housing.

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Originally Posted by Dimitrii

If you buy a house and then a month later decide you never really wanted a house in the first place why not just relinquish the house like SE intended in the first place?

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Why would you relinquish it? If spending 3M plus house and furnishings is a big nothing to you, getting back 2.4M is even more meaningless. So the house is left virtually unused, despite there being someone would gladly buy it for 10M.

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

Why would you relinquish it? If spending 3M plus house and furnishings is a big nothing to you, getting back 2.4M is even more meaningless. So the house is left virtually unused, despite there being someone would gladly buy it for 10M.

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Do you really not see how that is exploitation...=3=

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Originally Posted by Avera

Do you really not see how that is exploitation...=3=

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Not selling the house is exploitation now?

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

Not selling the house is exploitation now?

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No, selling it...and exploiting the buyer when you KNOW its worth less than what you are selling it...Ill put the example of Matilda (Was on TV) Her father takes crappy cars and sells them for a lot more than they are worth.