Goodbye strength tanks. Let us never be forgotten.

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Originally Posted by Aaliyahrose

I dont think I've ever seen a WAR with full VIT gear...I wonder what that juicy amount of HP is going to look like :o

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It's a lot... and Vit on WAR is a very glorious amount of HP. + ToB is stronger the more HP you have, bigger self heals = Win.

Good riddance to bad mechanics, IMO.

The only people I kinda feel for here is DRKs who actually tried to get some mileage out of Living Dead. Without a WHM Benediction at the ready, I imagine there will be a lot more Living Dead attempts that end up with a dead DRK in 3.2 unless some adjustments are made.

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

Good riddance to bad mechanics, IMO.

The only people I kinda feel for here is DRKs who actually tried to get some mileage out of Living Dead. Without a WHM Benediction at the ready, I imagine there will be a lot more Living Dead attempts that end up with a dead DRK in 3.2 unless some adjustments are made.

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and that is why I made a habit of using Convalescence with Living Dead

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Originally Posted by Aaliyahrose

I dont think I've ever seen a WAR with full VIT gear...I wonder what that juicy amount of HP is going to look like :o

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I tried it out last night after getting the eso fending accessories, was 27k hp in Defiance.

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Originally Posted by Edewen

Someone apparently doesn't read patch notes or read live letters.

Str tanks are getting a rip thread because it has been stated black n white. Using str gear will be a dps loss for tanks compared to vit gear. That is why there is a RIP thread. It has nothing to do with any dps loss as we don't know how high vit will scale for dps.

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in that case would it not be too early to claim a R.I.P thread is needed? you yourself said we have no idea what the scaling is yet.

Personally I'm really looking forward to playing tank in full vit. Little dps loss for huge hp gain? I'l take it. Tanks gunna be tanks.

I'm glad to see strength tanking go to be honest.
Always hated zoning into an instance and seeing the tank barely have more hp than a dragoon.

My friends and I used full vitality on our tanks anyways so if anything we'll be seeing a dps increase from this.

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Originally Posted by Moomba33

I'm glad to see strength tanking go to be honest.
Always hated zoning into an instance and seeing the tank barely have more hp than a dragoon.

My friends and I used full vitality on our tanks anyways so if anything we'll be seeing a dps increase from this.

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Right, let's not forget about the Defence difference and stance + cd's. But I can see your point, those days will indeed be over.

Wait, are these the tanks that were forcing me to spam by biggest single tgt heal on trash (and popping CDs)?

If not, I don't get the change...

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Originally Posted by Divine_Intervention

Personally I'm really looking forward to playing tank in full vit. Little dps loss for huge hp gain? I'l take it. Tanks gunna be tanks.

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It's not been stated that their will be a dps loss. I actually don't believe their will be if it works like they've stated. Guess we'll see:)

I'll never forget some dumb Str tanks who use all Str gears in leveling dungeons where their gears get synced. They're a pain in the butt for the healers and forcing them to be in healing stance and cannot attack.

Personally, I had no issue with Strength tanks. I just had to adjust my healing style to mesh with their tanking style.

I feel tanks should have more than one effective stat gearing strategy. Starting tomorrow it seems everyone will just stack Vit. :(

However, with the upcoming changes, I do not think tanks who enjoy doing good dps will be disappointed.

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Originally Posted by Andrea

I will probably get some hate for this comment but.

I feel that the reason more str tanks seemed to know what they were doing instead of vit tanks is because if someone is new to the game and don't know anything about it vit seems like a logic choice to go for as a tank.

Just my opinion on that though.

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No hate at all, Andrea. I feel you are correct. As someone new to the game, I did exactly that on my paladin. (at first)

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Originally Posted by BreyVoreas93

It's not been stated that their will be a dps loss. I actually don't believe their will be if it works like they've stated. Guess we'll see:)

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Except it has been, in one of Yoshi's recent interviews I believe. It was stated that 3.2 VIT tanks will do less damage than 3.15 STR tanks, hence why they upped the enmity generation on all the tank stances, to make up for the loss of DPS.

How extreme this dps loss will be is what we don't know. Could be relatively major or incredibly minor, we'll know in several hours.

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Originally Posted by Kacho_Nacho

I feel tanks should have more than one effective stat gearing strategy.

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Nail. On the head. :3

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Originally Posted by Andrea

Funny you should say that as when talking about un-equipping your job stone you told me this.



So for Job stones its ok to gimp yourself, but for gear its not?

You also claimed that people would start vote kicking people due to gear not meeting standards..but here you are calling every strength tank bad...?

Then theres also this gem on people complaining about people gimping themselves....

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Lol I knew you would bring up my previous posts. Guess I should have put rude in sarcasm quotes. Instead of actually defending STR tanks you just attack me personally. Does this mean you actually agree with me that STR tanks are bad? Cause so far you haven't provided proof of the opposite...

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Originally Posted by Ironos

Except it has been, in one of Yoshi's recent interviews I believe. It was stated that 3.2 VIT tanks will do less damage than 3.15 STR tanks, hence why they upped the enmity generation on all the tank stances, to make up for the loss of DPS.

How extreme this dps loss will be is what we don't know. Could be relatively major or incredibly minor, we'll know in several hours.

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My guess is the new tank dps will be similar to tanks wearing all crafted str accessories right now since they wanted to address the issue of tanks needing to invest millions into crafted accessories for the hard raids to have an advantage. Won't be a huge drop if this is the case.

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Originally Posted by raymon

in that case would it not be too early to claim a R.I.P thread is needed? you yourself said we have no idea what the scaling is yet.

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No because as stated, you WILL be doing less damage if you stick with str accessories. The RIP thread is for STR accs. How hard is that to grasp.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...802-10-2016%29
"From Patch 3.2 onward, allocating points to vitality will help tanks deal more damage. Because of this change, you'll be dealing less damage if you’re using strength accessories after the patch, so please have your vitality accessories ready."

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Originally Posted by TheUltimateSeph

Lol I knew you would bring up my previous posts. Guess I should have put rude in sarcasm quotes. Instead of actually defending STR tanks you just attack me personally. Does this mean you actually agree with me that STR tanks are bad? Cause so far you haven't provided proof of the opposite...

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...and you've only proven in this thread that you tend to talk out your arse.

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Originally Posted by TheUltimateSeph

Lol I knew you would bring up my previous posts. Guess I should have put rude in sarcasm quotes. Instead of actually defending STR tanks you just attack me personally. Does this mean you actually agree with me that STR tanks are bad? Cause so far you haven't provided proof of the opposite...

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You haven't brought up any points to contest, really. Anecdotal evidence (ie, "This one time a STR tank died and it was really bad :c") does not pass as evidence as there is no proof it encompasses the whole and there is no way to argue with that. While ad hominem/poisoning the well is a fallacy as well, it was pointing out you held a different position on a similar matter; it has no bearing on STR tanks but it does point out you're willing to say anything to try and win the argument.

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Originally Posted by TheUltimateSeph

Lol I knew you would bring up my previous posts. Guess I should have put rude in sarcasm quotes. Instead of actually defending STR tanks you just attack me personally. Does this mean you actually agree with me that STR tanks are bad? Cause so far you haven't provided proof of the opposite...

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Are all you posts sarcastic then?

Wouldn't call it attacking you more asking why you feel one is ok while the other isn't.

If I want to attack you i'd insult you directly not by trying to discuss something.

Also on your question I don't believe either vit or str tanks are 'bad'

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Originally Posted by Kacho_Nacho

I feel tanks should have more than one effective stat gearing strategy. Starting tomorrow it seems everyone will just stack Vit. :(

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Why just Tanks? Why would that be the only role to do that? Besides, even if we had "the choice" before 3.2, every tank was stacking STR in raid anyway. So much for choices. In fact, the new materia melding of 3.2 might give us more choice than we had before.

On top of that, I'm happy that Tanks won't have to stuggle with three other people in raid groups to find out who will take that STR accessory.

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Originally Posted by DGladius

My guess is the new tank dps will be similar to tanks wearing all crafted str accessories right now since they wanted to address the issue of tanks needing to invest millions into crafted accessories for the hard raids to have an advantage. Won't be a huge drop if this is the case.

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That's what I originally thought as well, but once I heard/saw the buffs to tank stance enmity, that made me consider it may be a bigger nerf than we think. If our damage was kept at pentameld levels, I don't think the enmity buffs were needed.

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Originally Posted by Kacho_Nacho

Snip.

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Adjust to what healing style exactly? Str tanks vs Vit tanks are no harder/not harder to heal just because you have to hit 1 more button to heal? It's your job to not let the tanks Hp drop to 0 does that mean adjusting to that style too? You heal and support with DPS when you can that's it, have a pre-determined gear path for tanks is not a big deal it was pre-determined for us with full str why is it an issue now?

Do you think tanks were happy shoveling millions of gil in order to get pentamelds? No. Were healers who wanted to with accuracy or Vit? No. These were choices we had and in the end they were more headaches than what is was worth. I personally don't want to spend that much on gear that can be replaced in a month or so when new content comes out nor do I like telling my melee dps to greed on slaying when it's their BiS, i'm so glad I told my monk last week when the slaying earrings dropped take them.

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Originally Posted by Andrea

Are all you posts sarcastic then?

Wouldn't call it attacking you more asking why you feel one is ok while the other isn't.

If I want to attack you i'd insult you directly not by trying to discuss something.




Also on your question I don't believe either vit or str tanks are 'bad'

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I feel I should clarify that when I defend ice mages and auto attackers and lancers in void ark I have never said those players are good. I do in fact believe they are bad but that I still think they should play however they want. I think STR tanks are bad because they aren't as good as VIT tanks at actually tanking. This entire argument of STR tanks vs VIT tanks comes down to subjective personal opinion anyway. I'm really just here cause I'm bored so I couldn't care less who is deemed right or wrong either.

Well I stand corrected I have not seen the interview about dps reduction, I honestly didn't understand the emnity increase other than PLD needed it, but it will be interesting to see how this plays out and makes a bit more since if so.

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Originally Posted by TheUltimateSeph

I feel I should clarify that when I defend ice mages and auto attackers and lancers in void ark I have never said those players are good. I do in fact believe they are bad but that I still think they should play however they want. I think STR tanks are bad because they aren't as good as VIT tanks at actually tanking. This entire argument of STR tanks vs VIT tanks comes down to subjective personal opinion anyway. I'm really just here cause I'm bored so I couldn't care less who is deemed right or wrong either.

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As you said, that is a personal opinion. Str or Vit didn't make you bad, it simply made the healers have very little wiggle room when you were gearing to have just enough health to survive the tank buster.

What makes a tank is 4 things really

1. Threat: If you don't have threat, you aren't a tank
2. Mitigation: proper cool-down usage to do everything you can to help your healers
3. Dodging: Nothing is worse than having to stop laying down dots and heal simply bc the tank was too lazy to move
4. Maximizing DPS: To be clear, this means raids dps. This could be many things, from not moving the boss needlessly, popping group cool-downs so healers can pump out more, and yes, maximizing yourself.

Good tanks do the first 3. Great tanks can do it all. And up to this point, even though yuo may not like it, I wasn't a big fan either, it is irrefutable FACT that in order to be a great tank and give everything you had to win, you had to wear str gear and trust your healers to not need the wiggle room because it was the ideal way to maximize the groups damage output.

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Originally Posted by Iagainsti

...and you've only proven in this thread that you tend to talk out your arse.

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And all you've proven is you are quick to the keys but the mind is rather slow. you've insulted everyone that's opposed this topic, but rather then pathetic nostalgia have offered nothing as to why people who have posted against this topic wrong. Sorry if you want to chat in a bubble, feel free to make some blog or something and get a pat on the back from others that sympathize. But if you talk here, you open for discourse of al points of view, Wrong and Right. If that doesn't sit well with you, not only should you leave the topic, but you should leave the forums for they are not for someone who wants their sole opinions regurgitated back to them.

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I feel tanks should have more than one effective stat gearing strategy.

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Why, exactly? Healers and DPS don't...

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Originally Posted by TheUltimateSeph

I I think STR tanks are bad because they aren't as good as VIT tanks at actually tanking.

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So you want people to give you reasons why STR tanking is viable but don't supply your own and use circular logic?

Let me educate you a little:

More STR means relying less on your enmity combo, letting you focus more on DPS and utility combos. Enmity for the sake of enmity is completely useless if you are not at risk of losing agro.

Stronger self-heals: your self-heals as a tank (Clemency, Souleater, Equillibrium, anything+Bloodbath) scale directly off attack power. Have you seen the massive amounts of HP you can recover as a WAR with Deliverance+Bloodbath+Berserk+Internal Release? Go pull 12 mobs and double Decimate and just laugh as you self-heal for godly amounts.

Actually surviving through Living Dead.

More DPS, which is its own form of mitigation, as killing stuff faster reduces the amount of time you spend on it. Before you say "but that's the DPS job", no, it's not, it can be anyone's job, because there is no cap on how much damage a group can do.

Once you get enough HP to feel comfortable in an encounter, as long as you play your job correctly and use your cooldowns, STR will benefit you much more than extra HP will. If you're not doing cutting-edge content, and don't feel confident enough in your HP and want to make it bigger, that's fine too. To state that a STR tank is "bad" while knowing absolutely nothing about STR tanking from lack of personal experience, however, is extremely foolish.

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

Why, exactly? Healers and DPS don't...

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Right, like sure must be nice that you can build Tanky or build DPS, that you can self heal and practically solo some fights due to tanky/dps outputs..... Must be nice to be essentially multiple classes in one lol. I'm a tank, but even for me the amount of solo ability a tank has compared to other classes calls into question fairness but also why is it so hard to have hybrid classes, when things like WAR exist lol?

I am Sera Malqir, and I've been a STR tank since 2 days ago and will forever stay one!
Simply because I do not care enough about tanking to actually invest in seperate gear for it..xD
Share that DRG gear, girl! :cool:

As a previous str / mixed tank, i am glad for this change. It was always disheartening to see the rest of the group have the same HP, or a bit lower than you if you used mixed.

The concept of STR tanks also brought about a massive wave of bad players who wanted to DPS with a sword or axe, DF will be far better off without those scrubs.

I'm honestly not sure where all the vitriol is coming from. Yes, STR tanks will hit a small DPS hit with the transition to full VIT, BUT! You will also have more HP and more survivability, allowing healers more time to DPS before they need to heal you. So assuming everyone is playing properly, the DPS will either remain similar, or depending on how many more spells the healers can sneak in, might even increase.

I get that it takes away some sort of choice from Tanks, but really, this just seems like you guys now get the best of both worlds to me.

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Originally Posted by karateorangutang

May my slaying gear rest in peace as well.

And lol at healers thinking this is even gonna remotely fix a tank that doesnt cycle cooldowns correctly, as this will just work to make bads even slower in dungeons.

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While true, I think an important factor is it gives healers more time to adjust to bad tanks. That's an important for equally inexperienced healers trying to learn.

The only downside? The first few weeks in the DF will be a complete mess. I don't expect a lot of STR tanks to immediately change. Granted, for old content that shouldn't be an issue, but for the new stuff? They might well be murdered within a few seconds.

I wouldn't be surprised if come tomorrow, the nerf to tank dps is more substantial than people expect.

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Originally Posted by Corfish

Yes, STR tanks will hit a small DPS hit with the transition to full VIT, BUT! You will also have more HP and more survivability, allowing healers more time to DPS before they need to heal you.

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Ehhhhhh, yes and no. A tank with more HP could make a healer take longer to get out of cleric stance, but a tank with less HP will require the healer to heal them less, since they also need less heals to be topped off, so it balances itself out. Conversely, a healer doesn't have to top you off, but if you have a ton of HP, while having the option to allocate those points to something else, and you're not being topped off, you're achieving absolutely nothing. It WILL be nice having the best of both worlds, but it was also nice to have some choice in how I geared up as well, you know?

Someone on another board also made a really good comment about how having more HP can make a tank lazier and slack on their mitigation. For example, a full Vit DRK can Foresight a Heavenly Heel and survive, but successfully going towards STR forces you to play more skillfully and have much better cooldown management, because if you don't Shadowskin+Foresight, or Shadow Wall a Heavenly Heel, the only thing you will be tanking is the floor. This argument is mostly aimed at the people who are saying that the bad STR tanks won't plague their groups anymore, but it will just encourage those same lazy players to eat unmitigated tank busters (or barely mitigated), and if addressed by a healer, will just spout the usual "We didn't wipe, so stop complaining" excuse.

Regardless of this change, lazy tanks will remain lazy, and good tanks will adjust. Having more HP doesn't necessarily make you tankier, and that's something that many healers will start realizing tomorrow.

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Originally Posted by Edewen

As you said, that is a personal opinion. Str or Vit didn't make you bad, it simply made the healers have very little wiggle room when you were gearing to have just enough health to survive the tank buster.

What makes a tank is 4 things really

1. Threat: If you don't have threat, you aren't a tank
2. Mitigation: proper cool-down usage to do everything you can to help your healers
3. Dodging: Nothing is worse than having to stop laying down dots and heal simply bc the tank was too lazy to move
4. Maximizing DPS: To be clear, this means raids dps. This could be many things, from not moving the boss needlessly, popping group cool-downs so healers can pump out more, and yes, maximizing yourself.

Good tanks do the first 3. Great tanks can do it all. And up to this point, even though yuo may not like it, I wasn't a big fan either, it is irrefutable FACT that in order to be a great tank and give everything you had to win, you had to wear str gear and trust your healers to not need the wiggle room because it was the ideal way to maximize the groups damage output.

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And that's fine if you're in a static that's fairly familiar with each other's playstyle. However, rarely are those the circumstances for most tanks (or for most of their time spent tanking), and expecting random strangers to perform well with "very little wiggle room" is just inviting trouble. And for what? What has a STR tank pugging along with everyone else in Void Ark really added to anything? In the grand scheme of things a negligible increase in overall raid DPS at the cost of a respectable amount of health that requires the healers to babysit them more closely than they should need to. With as flaky as PUGs can be, a single wipe in a 24 man raid can lead to a vote-abandon. Why in the world would any reasonable tank increase the risk of causing that mess by not gearing for survivability instead?

When I'm tanking with friends and we're failing a DPS check, I'll toss on some STR gear because every little bit helps. But most of the time, in most of this game, it is completely unnecessary and (I would argue) adding additional risk for nothing. I doubt most people care if a STR tank can cut a 25 minute dungeon run down to 23 minutes. They do mind, though, if said tank runs out of health and the resulting wipe wastes everyone's time with a lengthy run back to the failed encounter to spend even more time trying again.

These STR/VIT tank arguments go 'round and 'round as the people participating in them try to pretend that their STR builds are critical to tanking since everyone is (incoming B.S.) working on cutting edge content all the time. Yet we all know that just isn't the case for most players. A VIT tank is not bad or a "newbie" because they chose not to gear for STR for the majority of pugged content in this game - they're just wisely erring on the side of caution. I can respect that. I can not respect a tank who is choosing to instead risk significant delays for extremely minor gains and bragging rights on a DPS meter.

Using STR accessories instead of VIT definitely had its place. Great, settled. However, for the other 99% of scenarios (which always seem to be ignored in these discussions) it was a bad idea, and I'm super-happy that SE is removing that choice from the hands of players who couldn't figure out the difference between the right and wrong time to spec for STR.

Everyone in this thread will pretend that doesn't include them. And that was a big part of the problem.

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Originally Posted by Gyson

And that's fine if you're in a static that's fairly familiar with each other's playstyle. However, rarely are those the circumstances for most tanks (or for most of their time spent tanking), and expecting random strangers to perform well with "very little wiggle room" is just inviting trouble. And for what? What has a STR tank pugging along with everyone else in Void Ark really added to anything? In the grand scheme of things a negligible increase in overall raid DPS at the cost of a respectable amount of health that requires the healers to babysit them more closely than they should need to. With as flaky as PUGs can be, a single wipe in a 24 man raid can lead to a vote-abandon. Why in the world would any reasonable tank increase the risk of causing that mess by not gearing for survivability instead?

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Please educate yourself on the benefits that strength tanking brings other than more DPS before incorrectly equating Vitality to survivability. Most pro-VIT arguments come from misinformation, I wonder why.

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Originally Posted by Gyson

I doubt most people care if a STR tank can cut a 25 minute dungeon run down to 23 minutes.

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Lol, it's much more than that.

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Originally Posted by Gyson

Lol, it is so sadly not.



What's extremely foolish is assuming you feeling comfortable with an encounter (while knowing next to nothing about everyone else in your dungeon-run/raid-group) is all you need to remove all risk and succeed.

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If you think that having 270 less STR makes such a miniscule difference, refer to my first comment. If you still equate Vitality to survivability and fail to understand how STR also boosts survivability, again, read my first comment.

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Originally Posted by TheUltimateSeph

I feel I should clarify that when I defend ice mages and auto attackers and lancers in void ark I have never said those players are good. I do in fact believe they are bad but that I still think they should play however they want. I think STR tanks are bad because they aren't as good as VIT tanks at actually tanking. This entire argument of STR tanks vs VIT tanks comes down to subjective personal opinion anyway. I'm really just here cause I'm bored so I couldn't care less who is deemed right or wrong either.

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Just because they pay a sub does not entitlement them to play at a piss poor level without repercussion. Sure, GMs aren't going to ban them or anything, but people in their parties to have the right to be a little miffed at someone refusing to hit positonals or play Black Mage properly. Now I will say this is not the same as being sub-optimal. A healer, for instance, can still be good without DPSing. While it may slow down the clear speed, they are still effectively doing their job, albeit not to its fullest potential. Ice Mages are patently ignoring a large portion of their skills solely due to laziness.

In short, while they technically have the right to play however they like. People have a right to call them out on it.

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Originally Posted by Odett

Lol, it's much more than that.

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Lol, it is so sadly not.

What, do you think you've been cutting dungeon run times in half or something by swapping in some STR accessories? Well that's a pleasant dream. Completely ridiculous, but pleasant.

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Originally Posted by Odett

Once you get enough HP to feel comfortable in an encounter, as long as you play your job correctly and use your cooldowns, STR will benefit you much more than extra HP will. If you're not doing cutting-edge content, and don't feel confident enough in your HP and want to make it bigger, that's fine too. To state that a STR tank is "bad" while knowing absolutely nothing about STR tanking from lack of personal experience, however, is extremely foolish.

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What's extremely foolish is assuming you feeling comfortable with an encounter (while knowing next to nothing about everyone else in your dungeon-run/raid-group) is all you need to remove all risk and succeed.