Gerun Oracles

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Originally Posted by Nalien

Was it that history is cyclical? I thought it came off more as simply implying that events were preordained; Whatever is going to happen was scripted to happen.

As for Nidhogg... We have him flying off for "skies unknown"... If he wanted Midgardsormrs help to fight a Primal, and now feels betrayed by Middy, who has sided with us... Who would you go to for help? A certain Eikon hating Empire, that also historically "put down" Middy, perhaps? Would be a good way to instigate an Eorzean/Garlemald conflict and push us towards Ala Mhigo for 4.0.

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Before its say ortherwise on the MSQ quest. Lets say for now that none of Middy's sons ( exept Tiamat ) knows that his father is helping the WoL.

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Originally Posted by Nalien

Was it that history is cyclical? I thought it came off more as simply implying that events were preordained; Whatever is going to happen was scripted to happen.

As for Nidhogg... We have him flying off for "skies unknown"... If he wanted Midgardsormrs help to fight a Primal, and now feels betrayed by Middy, who has sided with us... Who would you go to for help? A certain Eikon hating Empire, that also historically "put down" Middy, perhaps? Would be a good way to instigate an Eorzean/Garlemald conflict and push us towards Ala Mhigo for 4.0.

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I believe they'd open fire on him before he could even utter or let it be known that he is seeking an alliance, even if it was to be a flimsy one.

"Genocide has ever been the Empire's favored recourse"

Unless of course, our good Imperial friends have discovered a means to "control" such an ally, but what level of coincidence are we talking to one: allow Nidhogg near the Garlean Empire and two: let his guard down long enough to even be captured. But c'mon, this is Nidhogg, remember, he didn't trust humanity even in peaceful times, would he even so much as entertain seeking anything but destruction to any of the human sides.

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Originally Posted by Kallera

This may be speculation based on Elidibus's words, but The Gerun Oracles seem suggest that history is cyclical, and that the current events of Eorzea are following a pattern of events that happen throughout the ages. Nidhogg's ultimate fate and willingness to cheat death may play into it, if someone were to suggest lockin him away somewhere...or if it sparks the rise of imperial ambitions.

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Originally Posted by Nalien

Was it that history is cyclical? I thought it came off more as simply implying that events were preordained; Whatever is going to happen was scripted to happen.

As for Nidhogg... We have him flying off for "skies unknown"... If he wanted Midgardsormrs help to fight a Primal, and now feels betrayed by Middy, who has sided with us... Who would you go to for help? A certain Eikon hating Empire, that also historically "put down" Middy, perhaps? Would be a good way to instigate an Eorzean/Garlemald conflict and push us towards Ala Mhigo for 4.0.

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While I do still believe history is cyclical on Hydaelyn, it's probably not a 1 for 1 thing that happens over and over. There's the rise of an empire, a great war, and a cataclysm that results leading to an Umbral Era. We don't know all of the Calamities' buildup, but...

3rd Astral Era / 4th Calamity: Rise of Allag, war with Meracydia, Dalamud blasts Syrcus Tower causing the Calamity.
5th Astral Era / 6th Calamity: Rise of the magic city-states, War of the Magi, Elementals flood the world in response.
6th Astral Era / 7th Calamity: Rise of Garlemald, Battle of Cartenau, Dalamud's descent and Bahamut's breakout.

... that said, this is just a basic template. Details change, but there's not always going to be a killed / resurrected / imprisoned dragon. As for Nidhogg, I have a very hard time believing he'd ally with Garlemald; while his hatred is directed primarily at Ishgard, he seems to hold all mortals in contempt. It should also be noted that the "Nidhogg" we're fighting now isn't the genuine article, but a manifestation of his hatred that lingered in his eyes. The English version calls him simply a "shade," while I believe the Japanese version calls him a "demon dragon" (as opposed to his original designation as a celestial dragon).

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Originally Posted by Cilia

... that said, this is just a basic template. Details change, but there's not always going to be a killed / resurrected / imprisoned dragon. As for Nidhogg, I have a very hard time believing he'd ally with Garlemald; while his hatred is directed primarily at Ishgard, he seems to hold all mortals in contempt. It should also be noted that the "Nidhogg" we're fighting now isn't the genuine article, but a manifestation of his hatred that lingered in his eyes. The English version calls him simply a "shade," while I believe the Japanese version calls him a "demon dragon" (as opposed to his original designation as a celestial dragon).

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Hmm, that would effectively make Nidhogg a Yokai/Akuma by japanese standards. But I think "Shade" would be a mislabeled. Shades have little to no influence over the material world so Nidhogg retaining the ability to kill would make him a Wraith. A very powerful and dangerous Vengeful Spirit

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Originally Posted by Frederick22

Before its say ortherwise on the MSQ quest. Lets say for now that none of Middy's sons ( exept Tiamat ) knows that his father is helping the WoL.

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Would it be hard for him to find out? I mean, we flew back to Ishgard on Midgardsormr... Word is bound to get around eventually... Although given Nidhoggs temper, and the simple fact that Midgardsormr went from joining the chorus to... Not... I can imagine Nidhogg being slightly peeved at daddy regardless. If he wanted Middys aid for dealing with Thordan, then the next best thing would be the army that went toe to toe with Middy, surely?

As for allying with Garlemald, "ally" is perhaps too strong a word. My favorite theory is still that Lahabrea is alive and well as an eye floater, and will compel Nidhogg towards something stupid (like summoning Bahamut unto himself, giving us some new bastardization of Bahamut (probably Shinryu, poor Tiamat...) to bring Omega into the plot), but considering where he could be flying off to? If we're rounding up the Dragonsong War soon, he can't be going far. Then we have 4.0, granted we have no real idea where that will be going, but one assumes a conflict with Garlemald. Having him storm in there (and I wonder if he can revert back to Estinien form for negotiations...), go "Yo, Ishgard summoned a Primal", then bugger off, that could instigate a new conflict for 4.0.

He wouldn't so much be allying with them, but rather getting the last laugh. Unless where he is going becomes a plot point, and we go there too, I expect it to be a final revelation. He'll attack Ishgard or something, we'll defeat him and finally end the Dragonsong War, then he lets us know that he told Garlemald everything, and Ishgard will never know peace, because now Garlemald is coming for them.

I've said this before but I'm hoping that we will be forced to ally with Garlemald to take down a bigger threat. Garlemald deserves more than to constantly be pushed as convenient antagonists - there's a lot of potential for the Garleans to be much more than that. Looking back at earlier titles in the Final Fantasy series shows that many 'antagonists' can actually become firm friends or at least reluctant allies from time to time. It happened with Shinra in FF7, it happened with Gabranth in FF12, it happened with Kuja in FF9...and so on.

We need more of that in my opinion - especially if the story is ever going to evolve beyond the WoL conveniently taking down any and all threats that stand in their way.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

I've said this before but I'm hoping that we will be forced to ally with Garlemald to take down a bigger threat. Garlemald deserves more than to constantly be pushed as convenient antagonists - there's a lot of potential for the Garleans to be much more than that. Looking back at earlier titles in the Final Fantasy series shows that many 'antagonists' can actually become firm friends or at least reluctant allies from time to time. It happened with Shinra in FF7, it happened with Gabranth in FF12, it happened with Kuja in FF9...and so on.

We need more of that in my opinion - especially if the story is ever going to evolve beyond the WoL conveniently taking down any and all threats that stand in their way.

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I don't know if Shinra and Kuja are good examples. Shinra did ally with the protagonists of FF7 but then promptly turned around and betrayed them going straight back to be antagonists. As for Kuja, he was really an antagonist till pretty much the very end of the game.

I want to see Garlemald as a more complex power structure with factions, some moderate and some more extreme. I highly doubt that the we will be dealing with more moderate groups until we at least set foot in Garlean held territories. Currently the ones in power in Garlemald are really antagonist material.

I could see us forced to work with them in extreme circumstances though (after all we have to put up with lolorito still) but currently I'm not sure what is going to be sever enough to warrant it. I seriously doubt we will see the WoL change his or her stance towards Garlemald's aggressive expansion and campaign of conquest, particularly with their current track record of how they have treated their conquered nations.

In the end though it will be the WoL who takes down the threats. We are the protagonist and the hero of the story.

I've read a lot of interesting theories on here about the Ascians, but there's something that stands out to me.

Mostly it's Faith, and how beliefs (or perspectives in general) seem to be a running thread in the universe, from Ascians declaring themselves true believers of Zodiark, to the line about how "We must believe we can achieve something, whether it's true or not."

Maybe Zodiark and Hydaelyn could be separate aspects of the True God, but only by the "Rejoining" could this God return?

All this talk of the Moon and the Star, yet nothing of the Earth?

Nothing but speculation of course, but I honestly believe that there's another God (neither Good nor Evil, but definitely not Neutral).

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Originally Posted by Mordoni

I've read a lot of interesting theories on here about the Ascians, but there's something that stands out to me.

Mostly it's Faith, and how beliefs (or perspectives in general) seem to be a running thread in the universe, from Ascians declaring themselves true believers of Zodiark, to the line about how "We must believe we can achieve something, whether it's true or not."

Maybe Zodiark and Hydaelyn could be separate aspects of the True God, but only by the "Rejoining" could this God return?

All this talk of the Moon and the Star, yet nothing of the Earth?

Nothing but speculation of course, but I honestly believe that there's another God (neither Good nor Evil, but definitely not Neutral).

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I believe 'Star' refers to the planet. It is the older definition of the word, but used that way throughout the game.

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Originally Posted by Kaiser-Ace

Hmm, that would effectively make Nidhogg a Yokai/Akuma by japanese standards. But I think "Shade" would be a mislabeled. Shades have little to no influence over the material world so Nidhogg retaining the ability to kill would make him a Wraith. A very powerful and dangerous Vengeful Spirit

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Just like the Bahamut that came out of Dalamud.

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Originally Posted by Zohar_Lahar

Just like the Bahamut that came out of Dalamud.

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Didn't Tiamat say that particular Bahamut they summoned was not the one that died during the Allagans invasion, but something entirely different (even she hoped it would be until she saw what was)? Just like how that other Dragon said that the Shiva summoned was not the original Shiva but something else created from her mind.

I think, but can't be certain right now, that was pointing out that both Hraesvelgr and Tiamat have called the primal versions of their respective lovers "shades." And with the term being tossed around now to describe Nidhogg, it's relevant.

EDIT: okay, Tiamat calls Primal-Bahamut a "specter" but Hraesvelgr definitely uses "shade" for Primal-Shiva

I think, in this case, we can probably assume that "shade" is being used as a general descriptor and not a technical one. It seems to be used to imply that the subject is somehow lesser than the real thing. In Shiva's case, it's because she's not the real thing (when that had been the aim); in Niddhog's case, it's because he lacks his own corporeal form.

It'd be interesting to know the Japanese term in each situation, because I think we know enough about what constitutes a Primal to say that Estinien!Niddhog isn't one.

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Originally Posted by Hinoto-no-Ryuji

I think, in this case, we can probably assume that "shade" is being used as a general descriptor and not a technical one. It seems to be used to imply that the subject is somehow lesser than the real thing. In Shiva's case, it's because she's not the real thing (when that had been the aim); in Niddhog's case, it's because he lacks his own corporeal form.

It'd be interesting to know the Japanese term in each situation, because I think we know enough about what constitutes a Primal to say that Estinien!Niddhog isn't one.

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Just to piggyback this, I'm 99.999999999% sure that Nidhogg isn't a Primal (I'll just give that .000000001% because plot twists are a thing). How easy would it be for him to win the war by tempering all of Ishgard, robbing them of their freedom and being free himself to punish them without retribution? Middy also comments on how far his "son" has fallen, not a shade or spectre (or Primal) in the Singularity Reactor.

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Originally Posted by PArcher

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To be fair, you could say that about any Primal. They're extremely powerful and whilst they could technically go out and Temper the masses they rarely do so. Heck, they rarely seem to be allowed to even leave wherever it is they've chosen as their base. I've said this before, but 'Tempering' doesn't even come off as a threat these days. I'm still waiting for a major character like Cid to be fighting alongside the Warrior of Light one minute only to be Tempered the next and forced to be put down as a result. It'd be cruel and make for some awesome tension (as well as making Primals/Eikons feel like more than just the next big thing for the WoL to slay).

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Originally Posted by Theodric

I've said this before, but 'Tempering' doesn't even come off as a threat these days. I'm still waiting for a major character like Cid to be fighting alongside the Warrior of Light one minute only to be Tempered the next and forced to be put down as a result. It'd be cruel and make for some awesome tension (as well as making Primals/Eikons feel like more than just the next big thing for the WoL to slay).

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Nah, by the time that happens we'll have found a way to use the Echo to undo Tempering, instead opening us up to reflect on the countless innocents put down offscreen by the Scions out of grim necessity. Only other way they'd handle it is as a way to get rid of a(nother) newly-introduced character, and that trick is even more stale.

I'm not sure if we'll be able to cure it any time soon (give it an expansion or two when SE starts hurting for new plotlines), but I do expect we'll learn to shield other people. Somehow.

Do we even need to protect or cure Tempering anymore? Last I checked, all the Primals joined a Linkshell and Garuda and Ifrit told everyone not to bother with that whole Tempering business... When was the last time any Primal even tried? I mean Sephirot woke up, saw a bunch of mortals and just went right for the kill, didn't even bother going "Oh, maybe I can temper these morons", yet the entire lead up to that made some huge deal about how only people with the Echo (plus whatever Kidibus has) could come help because he might - but wont - Temper others...

We should probably just learn to summon Primals ourselves and preemptively Temper everyone... Then no one else can Temper them and we can just order them to have free will... That was the logic Ifrit and Garuda worked off once, no? We were already claimed so they couldn't claim us... Oh damn, is that why Kidibus was safe from Sephirot?

That Locus' lyrics really heavily imply that Alexander is capable of tempering and yet Mide just strolls in really sort of shows how much SE respects the ability to Temper. As in - not at all.

(Unukalhai probably has the same form of the Echo that Lahabrea does, that is, Ascian form. Notice he doesn't actually deny having the Echo, he just doesn't elaborate on it, either. Very much a subtle evasion.).

Well, Mide was at the initial summoning of Alexander, so she should have been tempered by him then. Assuming there's any logic or consistency in how they operate, which there really isn't at this point, I guess.

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Originally Posted by CyrilLucifer

That Locus' lyrics really heavily imply that Alexander is capable of tempering and yet Mide just strolls in really sort of shows how much SE respects the ability to Temper. As in - not at all.

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I don't feel like we've actually "met" Alexander, just his Goblin protectors and their creations. I think if Mide went to the central core of the giant, she'd face tempering, but the outer areas? Don't think the Primal is awake enough to really influence things much (I mean, he moves a bit then shuts down. Twice.)

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Originally Posted by Fenral

Well, Mide was at the initial summoning of Alexander, so she should have been tempered by him then. Assuming there's any logic or consistency in how they operate, which there really isn't at this point, I guess.

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Summoning =/= tempering. IIRC, none of the Sahagan are tempered, for example (just the Drowned) and I don't think any Kobolds are either, nor the Gnath (don't know about the Vundu, but based on the Vanu Vanu quests they aren't either).

Ifrit is the only Primal (we know of) who indiscriminately tempers, being only focused on gaining more power and followers; Garuda tempers her children (Ixal) and only was going to temper you as a punishment. The rest likely save tempering as something else; Ravana probably sees it as dishonorable so will not Temper, Shiva may not know how (but also knows you have the Echo), Ramuh does not want to (only Tempered the Sylphs because they demanded he do so), Bismark...I don't know, maybe he has to eat you to Temper?

Tempering is probably not the first reaction to an enemy for most either; if the enemy is weak, why waste the energy to Temper them into a weak servant? Look at Nael; after his defeat Bahamut releases him from his Tempering since he proved to be too weak a servant (same for Lou, actually...)

Wait aren't the purple sylphs tempered by Ramuh?

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Originally Posted by Powe

Wait aren't the purple sylphs tempered by Ramuh?

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Yes they are. (IN fact I think the Green's Sylphs term for the purple comes from the phrased "touched in the head").

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Originally Posted by PArcher

Tempering is probably not the first reaction to an enemy for most either; if the enemy is weak, why waste the energy to Temper them into a weak servant? Look at Nael; after his defeat Bahamut releases him from his Tempering since he proved to be too weak a servant (same for Lou, actually...)

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Wait a minute... What if we summoned Ifrit the same way Ysayle summoned Shiva? So we become Ifrit... Would we be able to just release Tempered victims?

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Originally Posted by Nalien

Wait a minute... What if we summoned Ifrit the same way Ysayle summoned Shiva? So we become Ifrit... Would we be able to just release Tempered victims?

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Somehow I don;t think that is as easy as it sounds.

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Originally Posted by Nalien

Wait a minute... What if we summoned Ifrit the same way Ysayle summoned Shiva? So we become Ifrit... Would we be able to just release Tempered victims?

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Theoretically, its possible.

Reality...almost certainly impossible.

We have no proof that Shiva tempered anyone, and even though its highly likely that the Knights were tempered (well, one anyway), we can't say for certain that they were. So its hard to say if Ysayle or the Archbishop actually knew how to or could Temper anyone. I don't think we'd be able to remove Ifrit's Tempering in this manor without knowing how he Tempered them in the first place.

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Originally Posted by CyrilLucifer

I'm not sure if we'll be able to cure it any time soon (give it an expansion or two when SE starts hurting for new plotlines), but I do expect we'll learn to shield other people. Somehow.

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I already expect them to cure Roundrox and/or Mide's lover if they're Tempered by Alexander. The biggest problem with the Echo is that it - and thus the WoL - can technically do anything with it as is needed to advance the plot. Which unfortunately makes many of the game's antagonists never get a chance to feel like a threat, thus it all circles back.


I don't mean to sound overly negative but...blergh. I generally end up supporting the antagonists in most settings because to me they're just much more interesting and complex. They're the ones that are usually fleshed out enough to endure realistic consequences whilst the protagonists often get a free pass because 'lol dey da gud guys' and 'rule of cool! lol!!!11'.

Alas, I'm pretty much in the minority. I already get strange looks whenever I admit that the Lannisters are my favourite characters in Game of Thrones. :p

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Originally Posted by Theodric

Alas, I'm pretty much in the minority. I already get strange looks whenever I admit that the Lannisters are my favourite characters in Game of Thrones. :p

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They're perfectly sympathetic anti-villains in the books. I blame the TV show for not giving us very many introspective moments with them.

Then again, barring undeveloped crazy mustache evil, I can find a way to sympathize with pretty much anyone.

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Originally Posted by Fenral

Nah, by the time that happens we'll have found a way to use the Echo to undo Tempering, instead opening us up to reflect on the countless innocents put down offscreen by the Scions out of grim necessity. Only other way they'd handle it is as a way to get rid of a(nother) newly-introduced character, and that trick is even more stale.

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bonus points of grimness if a scion gets tempered and its only then does an argument occur over whether to kill them or not.