Strength Tanks

The day I consistently DF into parties where both DDs combined aren't doing less damage than I am, is the day I'll put away my STR accessories.

STR or VIT let the player decide, Don't burn away people for using full vit, same goes for full str.
And if i go full STR and i see i deal more DMG (as a PLD no less) than my random DPS in my party, i would say... Yes. it does make a difference.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AI_wass

The day I consistently DF into parties where both DDs combined aren't doing less damage than I am, is the day I'll put away my STR accessories.

---

I want video evidence from these people who belch out this talking point. I don't buy this line for a second.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hayward

I want video evidence from these people who belch out this talking point. I don't buy this line for a second.

---

I don't know, I ran a brayflox hm yesterday where the tank checked to make sure a big pull was okay since we had a blm (me) and a bard. I was doing 74% of the DPS (no foes being played, despite my request) the bard didn't use a single aoe and we wiped on the pull. Some people just don't know the basics of their job.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hayward

I want video evidence from these people who belch out this talking point. I don't buy this line for a second.

---

When you see bad DPS players doing 500 DPS or less (which is lower than what good DPS did at 50) in expert roulettes, which happens pretty often, you understand that doing over 1000 DPS as a tank really makes the difference. I'm not even exaggerating the numbers.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hayward

I want video evidence from these people who belch out this talking point. I don't buy this line for a second.

---

I once had a run where as the healer I did 51% of the DMG. Most of the rest was done by the tank.
The MNK we had only used auto-attack and rarely a skill (because he said that's what he is used to from other MMOs) and the BLM only used Fire I/Lightning I and Transpose. In a lvl 60 dungeon.
So yeah, I can totally understand tanks who don't want to leave it to the random dps they meet in df to actually deal dmg :rolleyes:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Atoli

I once had a run where as the healer I did 51% of the DMG. Most of the rest was done by the tank.
The MNK we had only used auto-attack and rarely a skill (because he said that's what he is used to from other MMOs) and the BLM only used Fire I/Lightning I and Transpose. In a lvl 60 dungeon.
So yeah, I can totally understand tanks who don't want to leave it to the random dps they meet in df to actually deal dmg :rolleyes:

---

Sadly, I find this isn't an entirely uncommon scenario.

Even more sadly, these kinds of DPS exist in the tank and healer roles also, and lobby feverishly against tank and healer DPS, trying to box their classes into minimal responsibilities.
Could you even imagine how painstakingly long that run would have been if cleric's stance and reasonable tank damage didn't exist? I shudder at the thought.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hayward

I want video evidence from these people who belch out this talking point. I don't buy this line for a second.

---

I did an Alex NM run where the top DPS was our MT Dark Knight by a margin of about 300 more DPS than the top damage dealer (I was on WHM and doing 5th most DPS).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hayward

I want video evidence from these people who belch out this talking point. I don't buy this line for a second.

---

I don't have a video but I could probably dig up some parses if I went looking.

It's sad how many DPS can't even DPS.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ashkendor

I don't have a video but I could probably dig up some parses if I went looking.

It's sad how many DPS can't even DPS.

---

Hm. I wonder if there's a correlation here.

DPS, as of Heavensward, have all increased in complexity from 50-60. They tend to involve a lot of work in order to achieve maximum output. Following this, it would make sense that "bad DPS" are more common now than they were in ARR.

But what about Tanks? By and large their rotations for maximizing damage are all much simpler than a dedicated DPS, although Dark Knight is certainly the closest to that sort of level.

I wonder if there are any DPS out there who switched to a Tank job after not being able to cut it as a DPS, contenting themselves with being able to slap Slaying on and output a cool 1000-1100 DPS with a fraction of the effort it would have taken their previous class to reach 1400-1500?

It's pretty morbid if you think about it, isn't it? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Donjo

Hm. I wonder if there's a correlation here.

DPS, as of Heavensward, have all increased in complexity from 50-60. They tend to involve a lot of work in order to achieve maximum output. Following this, it would make sense that "bad DPS" are more common now than they were in ARR.

But what about Tanks? By and large their rotations for maximizing damage are all much simpler than a dedicated DPS, although Dark Knight is certainly the closest to that sort of level.

I wonder if there are any DPS out there who switched to a Tank job after not being able to cut it as a DPS, contenting themselves with being able to slap Slaying on and output a cool 1000-1100 DPS with a fraction of the effort it would have taken their previous class to reach 1400-1500?

It's pretty morbid if you think about it, isn't it? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

---

This is very true, and it's a statement I heard when 3.0 was released.
The amazing players will really shine with the expansion of skills, and the previously decent to good players all of a sudden look awfully mediocre.

I think the tank classes are pretty simple to deal high amounts of damage in a lot of the encounters, the trick is simply the correct mitigation at the appropriate times.
I find when I play a DPS class, there is a lot more effort required in order to achieve really good damage.

That being said however, ALL of my DPS classes leveled to 60 will deal more damage than any of my tanks.
Even though the effort is arguably greater for the DPS classes, I don't feel dismal DPS is ever acceptable.

In that regard it is a bit of a numbers game. In 2.0 being 50 DPS lower than another equally geared player sure didnt look as bad as now in 3.0 which would be the equivalent to say 150 DPS.

But like others have said those sitting at what was possible in 2.0.....well I still don't think they could handle what is required to put out good DPS as a tank. It isn't quite as easy as slapping on DPS accessories.

Yeah tanks' DPS rotations are quite basic compared to pure DPS jobs, but DPSing as a tank isn't limited to get STR and do 1-2-3-1-4-5-1-4-6-repeat. It highly depends on the encounter, the incoming damage, and how you plan on mitigating it. You cannot go nuts on DPS 100% of the time as a tank, and knowing when you can do it and when you have to mitigate is what makes the complexity of it. There is unfortunately plenty of bad tanks who solely focus on DPS and get destroyed (then generally complains about healing). These are people trying to DPS, but failing because they don't know how to mitigate while doing it. These people certainly know the DPS rotation of their tank job, but they don't know anything about aggressive-tanking. Proper mitigation is the key to achieve high tank DPS.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Donjo

-snip-

---

You've hit upon a very important point. I cannot comment completely in the case of MNK and DRG (MNK is at 53 and DRG just hit 60 this weekend with an Iwa-Toshi Kai and a patchwork of Alex and new dungeon gear), but the process of weaving 52-60 abilities is not as easy as some people think and is all the tougher while negotiating mechanics designed to disrupt DPS players' rhythm (let's not mention the occasional leaping off-screen, an utter bane to BLMs in the middle of Enochian or a SMN in the middle of their Aethertrail Attunement).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hayward

but the process of weaving 52-60 abilities is not as easy as some people think

---

Who the crap thinks that would be easy? Rotations are the main reason I refuse to main a DPS class.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Donjo

I wonder if there are any DPS out there who switched to a Tank job after not being able to cut it as a DPS, contenting themselves with being able to slap Slaying on and output a cool 1000-1100 DPS with a fraction of the effort it would have taken their previous class to reach 1400-1500?

---

Those are probably the tanks I hate healing - the ones in Eso gear that mayaswell be using tissue paper.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hayward

You've hit upon a very important point. I cannot comment completely in the case of MNK and DRG (MNK is at 53 and DRG just hit 60 this weekend with an Iwa-Toshi Kai and a patchwork of Alex and new dungeon gear), but the process of weaving 52-60 abilities is not as easy as some people think and is all the tougher while negotiating mechanics designed to disrupt DPS players' rhythm (let's not mention the occasional leaping off-screen, an utter bane to BLMs in the middle of Enochian or a SMN in the middle of their Aethertrail Attunement).

---

Monk didn't seem to have changed much as compared to some of the others, but I could just be doing it wrong.

I was completely turned off to BLM because of the new rotation, though.

As a healer, if you have trouble healing a STR tank who is properly using cooldowns then you need to l2p. You are doing something very wrong.
As a healer, if you have a STR tank who is not properly using cooldowns, it's not totally your fault if he dies, even if he says it is. (If you're good, depending on the situation, you can heal through it anyway).
If you have a VIT tank you should tell them why they're wrong.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ashkendor

Monk didn't seem to have changed much as compared to some of the others, but I could just be doing it wrong.

---

Yeah it didn't change much, NIN didn't change much either. MNK basically just gained means to overcome his weakness when being forced to lose GL3 because of mechanics (Tornado Kick, the ability to stack Chakra and form-shift when there is no target to have a better come-back afterwards). Other than that, he only got 2-3 more oGCDs to weave in his rotation (Forbidden Chakra, Elixir Field, and Shoulder Tackle which was not usable at melee range before). Basically, MNK is now the only job which has always something to do with his GCD even when there is no targets on the field for 10+ seconds.
NIN just got a mean to refresh Huton via a combo, 1 direct damage oGCD, 1 buffing oGCD, and 2 threat-management abilities. The rotation didn't really change, it has even been simplified in terms of Ninjutsu usage and Armor Crush just really takes the place of one Aeolian Edge here and there.
These two jobs didn't get very much more complex at level 60. They just got more tools to keep doing what they were already doing at 50 (and a unique utility for NINs).
However, SMN, DRG, BLM and BRD all got their rotations improved in terms of complexity at some degree. I can understand how players can be struggling when first hitting 60 on these jobs, but now that we're in 3.1 it shouldn't be very hard for them to look at some videos or guides to help them improve.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Silenka

As a healer, if you have trouble healing a STR tank who is properly using cooldowns then you need to l2p. You are doing something very wrong.
As a healer, if you have a STR tank who is not properly using cooldowns, it's not totally your fault if he dies, even if he says it is. (If you're good, depending on the situation, you can heal through it anyway).
If you have a VIT tank you should tell them why they're wrong.

---

^ pretty much this.

In the long run, if a STR and VIT tank used the same skills in the same order, the total amount of healing they require doesnt really change.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Freyyy

However, SMN, DRG, BLM and BRD all got their rotations improved in terms of complexity at some degree. I can understand how players can be struggling when first hitting 60 on these jobs, but now that we're in 3.1 it shouldn't be very hard for them to look at some videos or guides to help them improve.

---

Whilst I definitely agree with you, there's something else to bear in mind here. Those 4 jobs did get added complexity, but they also got big changes in terms of the feel and fun-factor of the class. YMMV of course, but "added complexity" isnt the only thing at work here.

Every class generally has a focus to their rotation. They all have 5-6 regular buttons they press in either a fixed rotation or a priority system, but they all have something else to manage. Monk is about managing the 3 stacks of GL. Ninja is mostly about Huton uptime and regular Ninjutsu use. Dragoon was mostly about weaving lots of OGCD hits in between an otherwise rather fixed rotation, but now suddenly it also has the management of the BotD buff to contend with, which adds the additional frustration of "oh no my buff fell off due to a weird boss mechanic". This frustration is something Monks had to deal with pre-HW, but DRGs largely didn't.

BLMs got a massive change where instead of just watching their mana and reacting to procs, they now have a very very fixed rotation that harshly punishes them if they're even half a second late hitting that Blizzard 4. Bards didn't really get a complexity change but suddenly they're a caster and can't move as much during their rotations.

Any player forced to play one of those classes would easily adapt and learn the new rotation, but the fundamental feel of those classes has changed massively. The additional rotation skills add in layers of focus and frustration that are far beyond what players of those classes experienced in 2.55, whereas Monk/Ninja by and large got skills that REMOVE frustration by helping their buff upkeep.

I can certainly see (and know a lot of people like this) DRG, BRD and BLM players just leaving the classes in droves not because it's too hard but because it no longer feels like the class they loved playing back in 2.55. It may be that the community buzz about how fun tanks are (particularly all the fell cleave memes at the start of HW) has made these previously dps-centered players at least dabble in tanking.

I'd rather have a tank who takes on his enemies using muscles instead of relying upon his reservoir of body fat.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ashkendor

Bravo on the continued troll attempt, but Clemency scales off strength, genius. In any case, 6 points of strength is almost as laughable as the VIT you lose from not being a Sea Wolf. An errant crit could probably change my DPS more than that 6 strength.

---

Maybe not a troll, the OP also thinks that parsers kill SE's servers, and that Titan HM was waaaay too hard lol.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bashum

Maybe not a troll, the OP also thinks that parsers kill SE's servers, and that Titan HM was waaaay too hard lol.

---

Have you tried 2.0 Titan with FiOS at the time?

My god, the packet loss. No encounter is harder than the encounter where skill and capability are non-factors.

"Did your packets get through? No? BUH BYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYEEEEEE!"

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Donjo

I wonder if there are any DPS out there who switched to a Tank job after not being able to cut it as a DPS...

---

I have been, and always will be a "main" BLM...at least in my head. And I wouldn't necessarily say I wasn't able to "cut it" so to speak...but when you're a new father and averaging 3 hours of sleep at night, working 40 hours a week, and taking care of a baby until his bedtime, the type of maintenance that BLM requires is too much for me to focus on most nights. Not to mention, as has been brought up before, BLM feels different now than it did in 2.x content. I'm all for a little job complexity - I started off as a DRG and enjoyed the positional attack aspect before it got a bit better on weird mechanics fights - but BLM's focus shifted as soon as you finished the lv60 quest.

In the last several weeks, I've gotten my WAR to 60 and feel like I'm decently competent on it most nights lol! It's also MUCH easier to play when my 8 month old spends 3 hours screaming because he's tired but won't go the eff to sleep...but I digress...

Strenght vs vita tank ? Something may tell a strenght tank take more damage and is not easy to heal.
it's right anyway.
When a str tank only care about dps and sit on the defense CD, this tank should take a lot of damage and be difficut to heal.
But this is not true for every tank wearing str accesories, where is the trick?
Your str tank don't sit on defense CD and want to use it early to make it pop again sooner,
A war would use vengeance early by exemple. even if he don't realy need it, if he wait 90 sec before use it, he wast one vengeance.
And when this is realy damaging : the trick would be to use Inner beast (war) or Shieldtron (pld) just right before every cleave from the boss(it's a other exemple) (it mean also in this case you need to study the pattern from the boss, auto attack/cleave/cast ect, everything !)
A vita tank doing this ? this is safe, that's right, you better judge yourself if you need your vita it or not. if you are so safe with it, do you realy need it ? full vita or full strenght is not the question here, the question here is : i need at least this vita :it can be 20k HP for exemple, and the rest i can put strenght
It depend of of tank ability to use CDs and the healer.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ashkendor

I don't have a video but I could probably dig up some parses if I went looking.

It's sad how many DPS can't even DPS.

---

That's so true. My friend recently got a parser and we run a lot of content together and honestly the best phrase to describe it is "what has seen cannot be unseen" because the majority of DPS coming from DPS roles is extremely low and it's mostly been the norm rather than the exception. You'd honestly (@Hayward) be extremely surprised at the low amount of DPS that most DPS players are puling.

I've been doing more lv 60 content as WAR recently (I main DRK) and noticed that STR WARs better benefit from "risky healers". What I mean is that WARs have more burst self heals, contrasted from DRK's not-quite-as-strong but more steady and consistent Souleaters.

What I've noticed from this is that WAR's monster mitigation at full STR really required a healer who will trust their tank. Full VIT Equillibrium is a total joke, and a full STR Equillibrium heal that can crit for 12k is absolutely amazing. The downside of this is that it usually goes to waste because as soon as I use it, I'll see a Bene, Tetra, Dignity, or Lustrate cast on me. It's usually after a healer dies and they see my HP recover itself with BB+IR+Zerk, or Storm's Path, or IB that they realize just how little they need to heal me.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Odett

You'd honestly (@Hayward) be extremely surprised at the low amount of DPS that most DPS players are puling.

---

Anecdotal evidence isn't evidence, but I was putting down double the DPS of my two redbox players as a PLD last night. The healer also complained that I didn't have 20k HP from VIT accessories, so I was "too hard to heal". In his defense, he probably didn't notice I went SwO after the first Halone rotation...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sapphidia

It may be that the community buzz about how fun tanks are (particularly all the fell cleave memes at the start of HW) has made these previously dps-centered players at least dabble in tanking.

---

There's also a point to be made in the fact that the skills HW gives tanks largely reward them for playing aggressively. Back in 2.x, I only tanked when I did Coils with my static, and queued up for roulette a as a DPS job, mainly because queuing up as a tanks and getting 2 bad DPS was a death sentence in boredom. Tanking at lv 60, parsing upwards of 1k DPS, and having boss mitigation is an extremely rewarding task that I have not gotten out of the other roles.

I find playing an aggressive tank rewarding like trying to maximize dps while healing. Also when I tank I try to maximize the dps output of my healers too but that's through proper cool down use, not vitality accessories:-p

If you can survive your big hits then extra HP isn't really helping too much on the healing side. Damage intake rate is predictable after a few pulls and that's what is important not how much extra hp bloat a tank has. Now tanking progression content? I haven't done that in 3.0 so I wont comment but like all things it is probably do what is needed to stay alive and put the rest in str.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Odett

That's so true. My friend recently got a parser and we run a lot of content together and honestly the best phrase to describe it is "what has seen cannot be unseen" because the majority of DPS coming from DPS roles is extremely low and it's mostly been the norm rather than the exception. You'd honestly (@Hayward) be extremely surprised at the low amount of DPS that most DPS players are puling.

---

I ran into a Ninja last night that did 160 less DPS than my Scholar on Faust.

Seriously, what was he doing? x_x

You may wanna edit out that parse before a mod gets out their Awoken Banhammer.

Anyway, its more telling of the exception of the rule. 3/4 DPS there were doing pretty well, with 1 outlier, and the former 3 were all doing plenty more than the healers and tanks.

You have to take into account new players; new players are having to learn way more than we did from 1-50. We had an entire 2.x series to learn our jobs front backwards forwards and upside down, so 50-60 was not as bad as having to learn and master 1-60 all in the scope of a month or two. The mechanics introduced in the new DPS jobs from 50-60 are IMO far more geared towards those of us that were at 50 going into the expansion. If I had had to learn BotD for instance only a few short levels after first hitting 50 on my DRG I probably wouldn't have been pushing out decent numbers either.

Also who even knows what gear that NIN was wearing.

Last night farming A1N for Anima Drops I outdpsed 3 BLMs and a MNK on my DRK on faust. Totally didn't care, cause we 1-shot it and went on with our lives.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Syzygian

You have to take into account new players; new players are having to learn way more than we did from 1-50. We had an entire 2.x series to learn our jobs front backwards forwards and upside down, so 50-60 was not as bad as having to learn and master 1-60 all in the scope of a month or two. The mechanics introduced in the new DPS jobs from 50-60 are IMO far more geared towards those of us that were at 50 going into the expansion. If I had had to learn BotD for instance only a few short levels after first hitting 50 on my DRG I probably wouldn't have been pushing out decent numbers either.

Also who even knows what gear that NIN was wearing.

Last night farming A1N for Anima Drops I outdpsed 3 BLMs and a MNK on my DRK on faust. Totally didn't care, cause we 1-shot it and went on with our lives.

---

Yep. The entire point was that someone before didn't believe that there were DPS doing literally half the damage of other players. The NIN had to be at least i170 since we were in Alex Normal, so even if he was new, he was at least in full Law gear or better.

But seriously, I don't think I could parse that low unless I left myself autoattacking and went afk. ._.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ashkendor

But seriously, I don't think I could parse that low unless I left myself autoattacking and went afk. ._.

---

This is exactly my line of thought. Jobs like BLM are such that you'd have to TRY to do so little damage (knowledge of the rotations notwithstanding).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hayward

This is exactly my line of thought. Jobs like BLM are such that you'd have to TRY to do so little damage (knowledge of the rotations notwithstanding).

---

Yeah, you'd think so, but again, you can't just say "there's no way this would happen" when I have encountered numerous times people who pull extremely low numbers. The amount of times this happens will honestly surprise you greatly if you have the means to check peoples' numbers.

People can do whatever they want. I myself run mixed unless told otherwise (whether that be all vit or all str). I'll say this though, no amount of tank damage is going to make up for bad DPS.

Edit: Speaking of, there was an instance where I was running A1 NORMAL with a FC Mate (both of us tanks) and we actually hit enrage on both Faust and the Oppressors, and the DPS were in 180+ gear (and all has esoteric weapons except for one). It baffles me how they could be doing so little damage.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by FridgePanic

If you didn't want to heal, you shouldn't have queued as a healer.

---

Healers don't play the healing role anyway. In this game, everyone is DPS...there is no job roles anymore. Tanks focus just enough to make sure they keep hate...but then focus on DPS output. Healers do just enough to keep someone alive...but make sure they optimize DPS. And normal DPS well...DPS. I miss the good 'ole days, when healers were meant to heal, tanks were meant to tank, and DPS were meant to DPS

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RuleofThree

Healers don't play the healing role anyway. In this game, everyone is DPS...there is no job roles anymore. Tanks focus just enough to make sure they keep hate...but then focus on DPS output. Healers do just enough to keep someone alive...but make sure they optimize DPS. And normal DPS well...DPS. I miss the good 'ole days, when healers were meant to heal, tanks were meant to tank, and DPS were meant to DPS

---

which will probably... well hopefully the case with 3.2 endgame Raids again just like before with Coil.

However u cant reall stop people aiming for dps output on their classes..

once people grow comfortable with fights/getting more gear etc. they start to play way more aggressive, including the Heals and Tank. However this would be then just a nice addition and not a requirement, as it is the case atm with alexander Savage.

thordan does not really count cause there is no requirement for tanks and heal to deal dmg.

Even if they nerf tank damage to the ground and make bosses hit like the bastard child on steroids of Living Liquid and Bahamut Prime so you can almost never turn off tank stance while MTing it won't change the way we play our jobs. The correct rotation for each tank will still be the correct rotation and you'll still be pushing all the same buttons in the same order and it will require the same degree of skill.

Whenever someone comes around and says "I wish they'd make it so tanks would tank, etc." People unanimously assume this precludes maximizing DPS within the confines of whatever the ceiling winds up being. Its so tiresome and is the source of so much bickering and misunderstanding and hopefully it dies in a fire come 3.2.

I think the greatest fallacy is that if things went back to FCoB standards, we'd go back to having tanks that tank and healers that heal.

No.

Tanks also DPSed back then. Healers also DPSed back then.

It wasn't nearly as necessary so it was much easier for players to clear content with poor GCD optimization.

That's the truth of what these people are saying. It's not an issue with the DPS. It's an issue with the difficulty of content. What they're trying to say is that if we go back to FCoB standards, more people will be able to get away with slacking off.

I'm 100% sure that if they shifted the focus back to the "core" roles, retained the difficulty, and made it so sub-optimal play in those roles resulted in the same brick-wall wipes that we have now with DPS checks, these "purists" would all be back on these forums crying after getting rejected from the content for not being good enough at tanking or healing. Except, at that point, their complaints would be much more transparent.